R.T.F.P......please.
Ich bin ein Prooner.
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ferneytickles,
All I need right now is a big helping hand from the Lottery, and I'll give it a go! 
Well, best you pack your bags and come over here for some fun flying
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Quote:
PPR/ High Viz and a plethora of other issues cited as a minor annoyance to GA.......I just don't bloody get it. There is so much effort put in to whinging or non compliance when in reality it's easier/less stress to just obey the RULES.
Jawohl, mein Fuhrer!
PPR/ High Viz and a plethora of other issues cited as a minor annoyance to GA.......I just don't bloody get it. There is so much effort put in to whinging or non compliance when in reality it's easier/less stress to just obey the RULES.
Jawohl, mein Fuhrer!
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But many of you here are conflating failure to obtain permission with a host of other poor planning and airmanship issues. My point is not that anyone should be able to turn up out of the blue without having done any preparation and without regard for others. I'm saying that a system which requires one to obtain permission in advance just to visit is unnecessarily restrictive (sheep grazing strips excepted!) Of course you consult NOTAMs, weather and other resources to plan your arrival.
I come back to this: if other countries with even busier infrastructures don't bother with PPR, why has it taken such hold over here, and with such apparent enthusiasm?
I come back to this: if other countries with even busier infrastructures don't bother with PPR, why has it taken such hold over here, and with such apparent enthusiasm?
But many of you here are conflating failure to obtain permission with a host of other poor planning and airmanship issues. My point is not that anyone should be able to turn up out of the blue without having done any preparation and without regard for others. I'm saying that a system which requires one to obtain permission in advance just to visit is unnecessarily restrictive (sheep grazing strips excepted!) Of course you consult NOTAMs, weather and other resources to plan your arrival.
I come back to this: if other countries with even busier infrastructures don't bother with PPR, why has it taken such hold over here, and with such apparent enthusiasm?
(2) Anyhow, the UK is a small crowded island with tortuous planning laws. Many airfields are careful to not upset their neighbours, and insisting on a telephone briefing for visiting pilots is a reasonably painless way of minimising upset.
G
(1) They do - as I said, many US airparks for example do not permit landing without permission. I doubt that the proportion is much different betwee UK and US if you add up all runways.
It's worth drawing a distinction between smaller airfields and larger airports. To extend the analogy above, if I were wanting to go somewhere and park on an acquaintance's drive, I'd call them to ask for permission. But do I need to call Waitrose and ask for permission if I want to go and park in their car park to shop there?
I can quite understand small, private strips, sometimes with planning restrictions, with no AIP entry, requiring PPR. But... Cranfield? Manston? Bournemouth? Duxford? All of these are quite capable of publishing any procedures and notifying changes via NOTAM. Why the need to make use of these airports so inflexible?
I would expect the proportion to be vastly different.
It's worth drawing a distinction between smaller airfields and larger airports. To extend the analogy above, if I were wanting to go somewhere and park on an acquaintance's drive, I'd call them to ask for permission. But do I need to call Waitrose and ask for permission if I want to go and park in their car park to shop there?
I can quite understand small, private strips, sometimes with planning restrictions, with no AIP entry, requiring PPR. But... Cranfield? Manston? Bournemouth? Duxford? All of these are quite capable of publishing any procedures and notifying changes via NOTAM. Why the need to make use of these airports so inflexible?
It's worth drawing a distinction between smaller airfields and larger airports. To extend the analogy above, if I were wanting to go somewhere and park on an acquaintance's drive, I'd call them to ask for permission. But do I need to call Waitrose and ask for permission if I want to go and park in their car park to shop there?
I can quite understand small, private strips, sometimes with planning restrictions, with no AIP entry, requiring PPR. But... Cranfield? Manston? Bournemouth? Duxford? All of these are quite capable of publishing any procedures and notifying changes via NOTAM. Why the need to make use of these airports so inflexible?
But, taking two of those airfields you've listed. Duxford routinely has displays / display practice / public events going on. Published data may not be absolutely up to date, so I can see some sense in it. Cranfield routinely has operations disrupted by the BAe-146-301 Atmospheric Research Aircraft based there, the timing of which can change multiple times through the day - plus can be used for other disruptive research activities on the runway. So, I can see good reasons for it.
Bournemouth - no, I agree, there seems little sense in the requirement there, maybe a local can offer an opinion. Manston I've never been to so have no opinion.
G
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PPR is a disease spreading everywhere.
Not just the UK (where a phone call is not hard) but abroad where they often don't take English calls and that is even at major international airports.
Most PPR is pointless.
The other week I cancelled a flight to one such airport because they refused under their 24HR PPR, on the grounds that they had 60 bizjets turning up. In the end, the apron was reported virtually empty.
Jobs for little men, 95% of the time.
Not just the UK (where a phone call is not hard) but abroad where they often don't take English calls and that is even at major international airports.
Most PPR is pointless.
The other week I cancelled a flight to one such airport because they refused under their 24HR PPR, on the grounds that they had 60 bizjets turning up. In the end, the apron was reported virtually empty.
Jobs for little men, 95% of the time.
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What is unnecessarily restrictive about a requirement to phone and chat for 2 minutes about local conditions.
IMV, PN is probably a good idea; PPR is hardly ever warranted.
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The problem with PNR (prior notice required) is that unless you obtain a positive acknowledgement, you can't prove they received the "notice" and if the person at the said airport is the d1ckhead which so many airports (notably certain ones somewhat south of the UK) are staffed with, they could just turn you away when you are on final. I've had that happen. You might have sent several faxes but if....
So PNR is de facto same as PPR.
This is why PNR/PPR is such a problem in aviation.
It's OK for the "advanced Goodwood to Bembridge UK PPL over-water journey" because it really is just a phone call to Bembridge who will not cause any trouble whatsoever.
But extend the principle to airports where they can't (or more likely won't) speak English despite being international/Customs, or the published numbers are duff, and you can see the problem.
With the application of time and money you can make flying pretty smooth. You can get yourself a nice plane ("just money"), get yourself an IR ("just more time and more money"), but no matter what you do you are still up against the 4ft tall d1ckhead bloke who wants to feel important, and nothing makes him feel more important than turning away somebody who is 30 seconds away from landing after flying there 500 miles. Or perhaps he just doesn't like N-XXXX because he doesn't approve of American foreign policy
And there is no real solution to this.
Airlines etc work this by having staff who make the right phone calls, send the right AFTN messages, and generally have good contacts (including people in the "3rd world" country's aviation ministry) to make sure things happen and the fuel turns up etc.
Lower down the scale, one solution is to always use the local handling agent. His generous fee sometimes lubricates the airport manager so again things happen (whatever the notam says).
GA pilots tend to be stingy and understandably cannot see why they should pay £200 handling (which they don't need) when they can land there for £20. This is where the fun start
I am currently trying AFPEx and its ability to send AFTN messages, for this purpose. It seems to work OK.
But the other week I was going to take my girlfriend for a day to N France, and most of the several possible airports were Customs-PNR, and none of them answered the phone. I could not be bothered to go there.
So PNR is de facto same as PPR.
This is why PNR/PPR is such a problem in aviation.
It's OK for the "advanced Goodwood to Bembridge UK PPL over-water journey" because it really is just a phone call to Bembridge who will not cause any trouble whatsoever.
But extend the principle to airports where they can't (or more likely won't) speak English despite being international/Customs, or the published numbers are duff, and you can see the problem.
With the application of time and money you can make flying pretty smooth. You can get yourself a nice plane ("just money"), get yourself an IR ("just more time and more money"), but no matter what you do you are still up against the 4ft tall d1ckhead bloke who wants to feel important, and nothing makes him feel more important than turning away somebody who is 30 seconds away from landing after flying there 500 miles. Or perhaps he just doesn't like N-XXXX because he doesn't approve of American foreign policy
And there is no real solution to this.
Airlines etc work this by having staff who make the right phone calls, send the right AFTN messages, and generally have good contacts (including people in the "3rd world" country's aviation ministry) to make sure things happen and the fuel turns up etc.
Lower down the scale, one solution is to always use the local handling agent. His generous fee sometimes lubricates the airport manager so again things happen (whatever the notam says).
GA pilots tend to be stingy and understandably cannot see why they should pay £200 handling (which they don't need) when they can land there for £20. This is where the fun start
I am currently trying AFPEx and its ability to send AFTN messages, for this purpose. It seems to work OK.
But the other week I was going to take my girlfriend for a day to N France, and most of the several possible airports were Customs-PNR, and none of them answered the phone. I could not be bothered to go there.
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Bookwork wrote:
"I can quite understand small, private strips, sometimes with planning restrictions, with no AIP entry, requiring PPR. But... Cranfield? Manston? Bournemouth? Duxford? All of these are quite capable of publishing any procedures and notifying changes via NOTAM. Why the need to make use of these airports so inflexible?" (sorry, couldn't make 'quotes' work
Speaking for Duxford, there are two reasons why we ask for PPR by phone in advance.
One is as Ghengis said, due to the amount of warbird and display/practice display flying we have. I took phone calls on the Friday before Legends from students who wanted to call in or overfly. This day is probably the busiest or most complex of the year. The phone call allowed us to gently suggest that, whilst he/she would be welcome, another day would be better.
The second reason is that prior to introducing PPR, we had many noise complaints -- hundreds, due to overflight of the local villages, especially Duxford village. Last year, we had a handful, as the noise issue is part of the phone briefing.
Phone PPR works well for Duxford. We do accept casual traffic when not busy, at the FISO's discretion. However, this is always followed by a verbal expanation of why we want PPR when the visitor comes up to the tower.
Yes, procedures are published in the AIP. If you want to know how many pilots read and understand them, come and listen to some of my PPR phone conversations!
My personal view: PPR works for Duxford for specific reasons, but I don't think it is neessary everywhere.
Alan.
"I can quite understand small, private strips, sometimes with planning restrictions, with no AIP entry, requiring PPR. But... Cranfield? Manston? Bournemouth? Duxford? All of these are quite capable of publishing any procedures and notifying changes via NOTAM. Why the need to make use of these airports so inflexible?" (sorry, couldn't make 'quotes' work
Speaking for Duxford, there are two reasons why we ask for PPR by phone in advance.
One is as Ghengis said, due to the amount of warbird and display/practice display flying we have. I took phone calls on the Friday before Legends from students who wanted to call in or overfly. This day is probably the busiest or most complex of the year. The phone call allowed us to gently suggest that, whilst he/she would be welcome, another day would be better.
The second reason is that prior to introducing PPR, we had many noise complaints -- hundreds, due to overflight of the local villages, especially Duxford village. Last year, we had a handful, as the noise issue is part of the phone briefing.
Phone PPR works well for Duxford. We do accept casual traffic when not busy, at the FISO's discretion. However, this is always followed by a verbal expanation of why we want PPR when the visitor comes up to the tower.
Yes, procedures are published in the AIP. If you want to know how many pilots read and understand them, come and listen to some of my PPR phone conversations!
My personal view: PPR works for Duxford for specific reasons, but I don't think it is neessary everywhere.
Alan.
