Flying IMC out of CAS now dangerous?
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: uk
Very interesting debate, as a contrast I am doing the IMCR at the moment and I fly a very well equipped RV6 but even when I have the IMCR I will not be able to go into cloud even with mode S VOR GPS etc.
One thought if I did need to decend through cloud I could turn the engine off and then I would be gliding, All OK :-)
Not having a go at the glider pilots, we all have to operate by the rules but does seem a little unfair.
Steve
One thought if I did need to decend through cloud I could turn the engine off and then I would be gliding, All OK :-)
Not having a go at the glider pilots, we all have to operate by the rules but does seem a little unfair.
Steve
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: worcestershire
Where were you going 100nm IMC OCAS
To be dropped out of the airways 100nm from your destination is very unusual where was your destination?. If going to the North East Newcastle and Teeside you are dropped out of the airways early Gasko normally (think that is right from memory) but the airports will give u a basic or conflict service OCAS. I think that any aircraft flying in IMC should have a transponder and most responsible glider pilots will agree with that in my experience. That must have been very scary and shows that any further reduction in Services will result one day in a disaster. I will always try and use London Mil in those conditions as another post said they are very helpful but are unlikely to pick up a glider!.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
My apologies (Scottish not mil) but for those who think OCAS is the domain of light GA look at the approach plates and read an incident report with an A320 then you may see who else is sharing the clouds with you. Not an A320 glider incident but a good idea of operations with large CAT OCAS
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...2009_13_en.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...IJ%2001-07.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...2009_13_en.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...IJ%2001-07.pdf
Last edited by Pace; 28th May 2009 at 11:26.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Oxford, UK
engine off we pay, engine on, we dont!
That's a good one, Pace! Is that vessel under sail, or under power with the mainsheet hauled in?
As has been said before, most glider pilots prefer NOT to fly IMC. If I ever bother to renew my Instrument Rating, I would rather like a full panel and all the bells and whistles as well, meanwhile I certainly stay out of cloud.
Those who do enter cloud are nearly always airline pilots! An awful lot of airline pilots enjoy real flying on their days off. Well used to instrument flying, and no doubt using whatever help one can get in the open airspace from any radar operation still functioning. As soon as TCAS makes sense, no doubt it will be adopted by these chaps.
Motor gliders, or turbos, whether self-launching or sustaining, well, if they can afford that sort of equipment, and TCAS did any good, it should be a requirement, so there.
But.....whether any LARS operator could make sense of a gaggle of 15 or 20 gliders in a single thermal (all separated of course and looking out with eyes on stalks) I very much doubt.
There will be about 20 gliding competitions this summer in the UK. All will be NOTAMed. you do read NOTAMS, don't you? Tasks will be set each soarable day, up to 500 kilometers in distance. So gliders not always hovering over gliding sites.
If you acquaint yourself with what the probable weather conditions are going to be and convection is likely, if you are flying power, why not disport yourself above all that nasty turbulence and fly on top? ( Helps if you lean the Lycoming....... )
As has been said before, most glider pilots prefer NOT to fly IMC. If I ever bother to renew my Instrument Rating, I would rather like a full panel and all the bells and whistles as well, meanwhile I certainly stay out of cloud.
Those who do enter cloud are nearly always airline pilots! An awful lot of airline pilots enjoy real flying on their days off. Well used to instrument flying, and no doubt using whatever help one can get in the open airspace from any radar operation still functioning. As soon as TCAS makes sense, no doubt it will be adopted by these chaps.
Motor gliders, or turbos, whether self-launching or sustaining, well, if they can afford that sort of equipment, and TCAS did any good, it should be a requirement, so there.
But.....whether any LARS operator could make sense of a gaggle of 15 or 20 gliders in a single thermal (all separated of course and looking out with eyes on stalks) I very much doubt.
There will be about 20 gliding competitions this summer in the UK. All will be NOTAMed. you do read NOTAMS, don't you? Tasks will be set each soarable day, up to 500 kilometers in distance. So gliders not always hovering over gliding sites.
If you acquaint yourself with what the probable weather conditions are going to be and convection is likely, if you are flying power, why not disport yourself above all that nasty turbulence and fly on top? ( Helps if you lean the Lycoming....... )
Thread Starter
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From: In the boot of my car!
Mary
I find it amazing
Firstly Hardly anyone in the gliding world flies into IMC, Then its only into isolated bit of cumulus and now its Airline pilots? Next it will be only astronauts ? If so why do you all defend the practice as if the whole future of gliding depends on it.
You have had privalages and excemptions that the rest of us do not enjoy.
The Guy who posted above about his RV6 kitted out with all the bells and whistles and a soon to be had IMCR is not allowed to do what you do.
Another poster talked of the gun laws and a tragic event forcing massive changes on the Gun clubs. I hope it doesnt take a tragic event to do so with gliding.
Pace
I find it amazing
Firstly Hardly anyone in the gliding world flies into IMC, Then its only into isolated bit of cumulus and now its Airline pilots? Next it will be only astronauts ? If so why do you all defend the practice as if the whole future of gliding depends on it.You have had privalages and excemptions that the rest of us do not enjoy.
The Guy who posted above about his RV6 kitted out with all the bells and whistles and a soon to be had IMCR is not allowed to do what you do.
Another poster talked of the gun laws and a tragic event forcing massive changes on the Gun clubs. I hope it doesnt take a tragic event to do so with gliding.
Pace
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: UK
Actually the RV6 pilot can....In order to legally comply he simply needs to change a piece of equipment....namely his RV6, and swap it for a glider.
Joined: May 2001
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To be fair PACE with the limited exposure to gliding that I have it is the Pro Pilots who are quite happy to go IMC in gliders.
It might be because they really arn't bothered about going onto instruments. Even the very experienced plain gliding instructors will shy away from it unless they have to ie come down through a layer.
Get a serving Mil pilot or commercial pilot who instructs gliding on their days off they just use what ever clouds they can to get lift. They will happily spin down through it, poke into doing loops etc.
I would agree with Mary that the majority of glider pilots don't as a habit fly in IMC because it scares the !!!! out of most of them.
It might be because they really arn't bothered about going onto instruments. Even the very experienced plain gliding instructors will shy away from it unless they have to ie come down through a layer.
Get a serving Mil pilot or commercial pilot who instructs gliding on their days off they just use what ever clouds they can to get lift. They will happily spin down through it, poke into doing loops etc.
I would agree with Mary that the majority of glider pilots don't as a habit fly in IMC because it scares the !!!! out of most of them.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: 51.50N 1W (ish)
Afternoon Pace
Your posts always read as though (a) you responded to the previous one without thinking and (b) have steam coming out of your ears. Both false impressions, no doubt.
The following statements, which I believe to be true, are all mutually compatible.
The majority of glider pilots do not fly in cloud.
Many glider pilots sometimes fly in cloud.
Many glider pilots are also current (or retired) ATPLs, and many (possibly a majority) of those sometimes fly in cloud in gliders and consider it perfectly safe.
We live in a moderately free society, and advocating the removal of someone else's rights or privileges is likely to reduce others' sympathy when ones own rights are summarily removed.
The risk to IMC aircraft OCAS is higher from military aircraft than from gliders.
More heat than light has been shed upon the subject of the thread so far.
Your posts always read as though (a) you responded to the previous one without thinking and (b) have steam coming out of your ears. Both false impressions, no doubt.
The following statements, which I believe to be true, are all mutually compatible.
The majority of glider pilots do not fly in cloud.
Many glider pilots sometimes fly in cloud.
Many glider pilots are also current (or retired) ATPLs, and many (possibly a majority) of those sometimes fly in cloud in gliders and consider it perfectly safe.
We live in a moderately free society, and advocating the removal of someone else's rights or privileges is likely to reduce others' sympathy when ones own rights are summarily removed.
The risk to IMC aircraft OCAS is higher from military aircraft than from gliders.
More heat than light has been shed upon the subject of the thread so far.
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From: Hotel Gypsy
Agree with PP Radar - which military radar? do you mean Aldergrove Approach? If so, this is most certainly civilian.
Fitter, please explain your comment about
The mil either have Mode C (which is to be switched on at al times) or Mode s on later models. Both versions will happily satisfy the plethora of devices we can fit to our aircraft. Furthermore, mil regulations require them to talk to an ATC or ASACS agency if they enter IMC; something not required for civil aircraft.
Fitter, please explain your comment about
military fast jets (unequipped with compatible transponders)
Joined: May 2007
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From: Dark side of the Moon
A powered pilot, flying VFR and without an IMC or IR, is not allowed to enter cloud, and is actually supposed to remain 1000 feet vertically from cloud.
Glider pilots, on the other hand, ARE allowed to fly within this 1000 foot band without any special equipment or enhanced rating or training - it is crucial to their ability to gain worthwhile lift and thus sustain lengthy flights.
It would be utterly unreasonable to impose the same VFR vertical separation of 1000 feet from cloud on the gliding community that powered pilots are required to observe.
However, it doesn't seem unreasonable to require that ANY aircraft intending to operate within cloud or above a cloud layer - powered or glider - should carry some form of transponder or device to help avoid collisions.
Glider pilots could then continue to operate UP TO the cloud base, while remaining clear of cloud, without having to carry a transponder - and this would, from the comments made on this thread, appear to be the overwhelming majority of pilots.
It would - as others have said - be a point very much in the gliding community's favour if they self-regulated in this way, which might go a long way towards preventing the mandatory carriage of transponders on ALL gliders, or a blanket ban on cloud flying (or an increase in separation from cloud) for ALL gliders. Better perhaps to make a small concession on a point that affects the minority rather than curtail the privileges for the majority.
To clarify - I am referring to operating OCAS!
FBW
Glider pilots, on the other hand, ARE allowed to fly within this 1000 foot band without any special equipment or enhanced rating or training - it is crucial to their ability to gain worthwhile lift and thus sustain lengthy flights.
It would be utterly unreasonable to impose the same VFR vertical separation of 1000 feet from cloud on the gliding community that powered pilots are required to observe.
However, it doesn't seem unreasonable to require that ANY aircraft intending to operate within cloud or above a cloud layer - powered or glider - should carry some form of transponder or device to help avoid collisions.
Glider pilots could then continue to operate UP TO the cloud base, while remaining clear of cloud, without having to carry a transponder - and this would, from the comments made on this thread, appear to be the overwhelming majority of pilots.
It would - as others have said - be a point very much in the gliding community's favour if they self-regulated in this way, which might go a long way towards preventing the mandatory carriage of transponders on ALL gliders, or a blanket ban on cloud flying (or an increase in separation from cloud) for ALL gliders. Better perhaps to make a small concession on a point that affects the minority rather than curtail the privileges for the majority.
To clarify - I am referring to operating OCAS!
FBW
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Fitter 2,
I have to reply by saying a statement like that shows a lack of understanding of who and what is flying around the UK's Class G airspace, especially in view of Pace's original post of what happened to him. Some of us would be happy to fly more inside CAS but have no chance of taking advantage of it for their flight. As a helicopter pilot I'm obliged to pick up my passengers from a back garden or field location and simply get on with it - no chance of a written flight plan or being fitted into CAS; that isn't the nature of the job. Even if I could be accommodated in airways at no notice, I could not go there for either aircraft icing limitations or passenger comfort.
Perhaps you are unaware that smaller business jets are required to fly in Class G (and can fly up to the legal limit of 250 kts) because they increasingly cannot be fitted into the airways system? This is essentially what happened to Pace, hence his post here.
Would folk prefer to think of these relatively high speed aircraft flying below cloud and radar cover, say at 2,000 feet, dodging light aircraft, microlights and gliders, or would you think they might be better off somewhat higher, OCAS but IMC, operating under a (radar) traffic service? It should be obvious where they are most likely to be. The LARS network was designed with these aircraft (and the increasing number of 150 kts plus IFR corporate helicopters) in mind.
It's probably only a matter of time before a mid air collision takes place in cloud. Under the present system, it is quite possible that a passenger aircraft, flying IMC with a full set of IFR equipment, plus TCAS, and in contact with a radar unit, collides with a hitherto unseen aircraft not carrying any conspicuity equipment and in not in contact with an ATC unit. Where do you think subsequent retribution and regulation are likely to fall hardest?
I know where I'd put my money.
One possible answer, I'm afraid, is more CAS at lower flight levels, which would cut down the airspace available for everyone else to enjoy.
There are vast tracts of CAS, defined in the days when navigation was much less accurate, to protect CAT. To make greater profits, (or reduce losses) CAT wants to use the rest of the air as well. In the process, increasing rules to protect fare-paying passengers will reduce risk to you, at no cost to you but at a cost to me.
Perhaps you are unaware that smaller business jets are required to fly in Class G (and can fly up to the legal limit of 250 kts) because they increasingly cannot be fitted into the airways system? This is essentially what happened to Pace, hence his post here.
Would folk prefer to think of these relatively high speed aircraft flying below cloud and radar cover, say at 2,000 feet, dodging light aircraft, microlights and gliders, or would you think they might be better off somewhat higher, OCAS but IMC, operating under a (radar) traffic service? It should be obvious where they are most likely to be. The LARS network was designed with these aircraft (and the increasing number of 150 kts plus IFR corporate helicopters) in mind.
It's probably only a matter of time before a mid air collision takes place in cloud. Under the present system, it is quite possible that a passenger aircraft, flying IMC with a full set of IFR equipment, plus TCAS, and in contact with a radar unit, collides with a hitherto unseen aircraft not carrying any conspicuity equipment and in not in contact with an ATC unit. Where do you think subsequent retribution and regulation are likely to fall hardest?
I know where I'd put my money.
One possible answer, I'm afraid, is more CAS at lower flight levels, which would cut down the airspace available for everyone else to enjoy.
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Right here
Gliders take the cloud on the left, other aircraft take the cloud on the right. How hard can this possibly be?! 
Where I fly (Sweden), large areas of restricted airspace are set aside for soaring in clouds, in the most ideal soaring locations of the country, from 5,000 ft to FL195, during the summer season. Everyone else has to fly around it when the area is used for soaring. Works perfectly, and I hear no complaints.
The British way of mixing everyone in the same cloud seems rather irresponsible IMO, not because the risk is big, but because it is left solely up to chance. On the other hand, demanding that gliders are fitted with all sorts of horribly expensive electronic gizmos only to reduce (not remove!) a 0.nothing risk of collision, can hardly be taken seriously?!
Much better then if powered aircraft are not mixed with IMC gliders at all.
Where I fly (Sweden), large areas of restricted airspace are set aside for soaring in clouds, in the most ideal soaring locations of the country, from 5,000 ft to FL195, during the summer season. Everyone else has to fly around it when the area is used for soaring. Works perfectly, and I hear no complaints.
The British way of mixing everyone in the same cloud seems rather irresponsible IMO, not because the risk is big, but because it is left solely up to chance. On the other hand, demanding that gliders are fitted with all sorts of horribly expensive electronic gizmos only to reduce (not remove!) a 0.nothing risk of collision, can hardly be taken seriously?!
Much better then if powered aircraft are not mixed with IMC gliders at all.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
FBW,
Your answer makes a lot of sense and is a lot more diplomatic than Pace who seems hell bent on banning gliders from getting anywhere near cloud! One problem though, is that not all cloud on convective days have the same base. I've been at the base of one cloud, only to find I'm halfway up another nearby! As you say, to stop glider pilots from using up the 1000' vertical distance would effectively kill the sport, so they simply cannot keep to VFR rules and operate. IFR traffic boring through cloud outside CAS still risk bumping into others and not just gliders. To think otherwise is just, well ... unwise!
SS
Your answer makes a lot of sense and is a lot more diplomatic than Pace who seems hell bent on banning gliders from getting anywhere near cloud! One problem though, is that not all cloud on convective days have the same base. I've been at the base of one cloud, only to find I'm halfway up another nearby! As you say, to stop glider pilots from using up the 1000' vertical distance would effectively kill the sport, so they simply cannot keep to VFR rules and operate. IFR traffic boring through cloud outside CAS still risk bumping into others and not just gliders. To think otherwise is just, well ... unwise!
SS
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Oxford, UK
Pace, I have just had another look at your first transmission on this thread. A question occurs to me: did you file an airmiss? if not, why not?
The chaps who follow these things up are very resourceful. It is always educational to read their comprehensive reports. I am wondering if it was a motor glider in some form in that unlikely place or somebody sliding back to Dunstable after a day in the wave over the Black Mountains. . . . . .
Probably not an astronaut, though UFO's are spotted from time to time......
The chaps who follow these things up are very resourceful. It is always educational to read their comprehensive reports. I am wondering if it was a motor glider in some form in that unlikely place or somebody sliding back to Dunstable after a day in the wave over the Black Mountains. . . . . .
Probably not an astronaut, though UFO's are spotted from time to time......
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
“A powered pilot, flying VFR and without an IMC or IR, is not allowed to enter cloud, and is actually supposed to remain 1000 feet vertically from cloud.”
No, he can fly very close to a cloud provided he is < 140kn <3000ft and ISOTS.
“Glider pilots, on the other hand, ARE allowed to fly within this 1000 foot band without any special equipment or enhanced rating or training - it is crucial to their ability to gain worthwhile lift and thus sustain lengthy flights.”
No, Glider pilots are trained and signed off at each stage. If you are cleared for local soaring, then you have been trained, tested and passed as safe. The Glider probably qualifies as “special equipment”
Rod1
No, he can fly very close to a cloud provided he is < 140kn <3000ft and ISOTS.
“Glider pilots, on the other hand, ARE allowed to fly within this 1000 foot band without any special equipment or enhanced rating or training - it is crucial to their ability to gain worthwhile lift and thus sustain lengthy flights.”
No, Glider pilots are trained and signed off at each stage. If you are cleared for local soaring, then you have been trained, tested and passed as safe. The Glider probably qualifies as “special equipment”
Rod1
Thread Starter
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From: In the boot of my car!
Pace, I have just had another look at your first transmission on this thread. A question occurs to me: did you file an airmiss? if not, why not?
The answer to your question is yes. May I also add that in 20+ years this has not happened before and prob a case of lightning not striking twice.
Pace
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From: UK
Many glider pilots are also current (or retired) ATPLs, and many (possibly a majority) of those sometimes fly in cloud in gliders and consider it perfectly safe.
The risk to IMC aircraft OCAS is higher from military aircraft than from gliders.
What absolute nonesense.
But.....whether any LARS operator could make sense of a gaggle of 15 or 20 gliders in a single thermal (all separated of course and looking out with eyes on stalks) I very much doubt.
Where I fly (Sweden), large areas of restricted airspace are set aside for soaring in clouds
I am a great believer in hanging on to priviliges we already have. Indeed I am a staunch supporter of the IMC rating. However, I have to weigh up the evidence, not as a glider pilot or as a powered pilot but on the basis of whether or not it is reasonable to permit gliders to do something no one else can. I have seen nothing here to support it being reasonable - just emotional arguments.
Look chaps when a twin collides with a glider in IMC two, three or even eight people are going to be dead. If we are really unlucky the collision might involve CAT and the death toll will be even greater. I have a feeling your "priviliges" will disappear over night and maybe a few other priviliges with it - I suspect your fraternity might wish you had better regulated yourselves, God forbid you ever need reminding.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Hants, UK
Was it a glider?
Pace, are you certain it actually was a glider? Identifying another aircraft, in cloud at a reasonable closing speed when not expecting to see it, strikes me as being rather difficult. File an airmiss and let the facts speak for themselves.
OG
OG