Flying IMC out of CAS now dangerous?
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Re the comment about gliders having to be white, today I got within ~ 200ft of a very dark one, so this statement is definitely not universally true. And the dark ones are much more visible.
Sad as ever to observe the vast majority of targets reported by "Traffic Service" to be quite obviously non-transponding. Never spotted even one of them visually, and there were two of us. It would be interesting to research the correlation one day; I suspect the vast majority of non-TX traffic flies below 2000ft and probably lower still, and almost 100% of traffic above about 4000ft is Mode C. Not sure how this could be researched since most of the traffic cannot be spotted visually anyway.
Sad as ever to observe the vast majority of targets reported by "Traffic Service" to be quite obviously non-transponding. Never spotted even one of them visually, and there were two of us. It would be interesting to research the correlation one day; I suspect the vast majority of non-TX traffic flies below 2000ft and probably lower still, and almost 100% of traffic above about 4000ft is Mode C. Not sure how this could be researched since most of the traffic cannot be spotted visually anyway.
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If it was a glider it wasn't a modern plastic one - believe me, they are all white. There are a few red noses and wingtips, but most of the ship is white.
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Could I make an alternative suggestion? All powered aircraft that are IFR certified have a transponder. A portable PCAS receiver costs about £350, will run on two AA batteries for 6 hours and would fit in any cockpit. If the gliding community equipped with this and the powered people who worry about this get FLARM, then we can all miss each other with no huge outlay on either side. Remember only 1% of PPL’s have an IR, so this is a very small minority on both sides.
Rod1
Rod1
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Yes I have been flying with one for about 25 hours now. It works very well and is an excellent reminder if an in cockpit task has distracted you. It beeps when anything gets too close and you can set your own parameters. It will monitor the nearest 10 targets. It runs on 2 AA batteries, which last 4 – 6 hours depending on the brightness of the display. I use rechargeables, which are recommended in the owners handbook.
Rod1
Rod1
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As to the benefits of see and avoid, two gliders had a midair at Starmoen/ENHN less then one hour ago. (Both pilots OK, did the parachute letdown....)
I´m allways a bit vary when flying a SEP into that strip, too many glass firbre planks skidding about.
Sky clear/unlimited vis in this part of the world today.
I´m allways a bit vary when flying a SEP into that strip, too many glass firbre planks skidding about.
Sky clear/unlimited vis in this part of the world today.
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Yes I have been flying with one for about 25 hours now. It works very well and is an excellent reminder if an in cockpit task has distracted you. It beeps when anything gets too close and you can set your own parameters. It will monitor the nearest 10 targets. It runs on 2 AA batteries, which last 4 – 6 hours depending on the brightness of the display. I use rechargeables, which are recommended in the owners handbook.
Rod1
Rod1
Liam
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He has got the less expensive version.
Advantages:
Own power supply - 2 self contained AA batteries,
Very small, about the size of two match boxes - fits jsut about anywhere,
Bright display.
Disadvantages
No directional information
I didnt find the absence of direction a problem, and the unit is great if you fly different aircraft.
My mate has made up a battery pack for the other version (and very well it works) and Zaon also sell a pack so that is an alternative to have a power supply point in the aircraft.
I have one I am going to sell.
Advantages:
Own power supply - 2 self contained AA batteries,
Very small, about the size of two match boxes - fits jsut about anywhere,
Bright display.
Disadvantages
No directional information
I didnt find the absence of direction a problem, and the unit is great if you fly different aircraft.
My mate has made up a battery pack for the other version (and very well it works) and Zaon also sell a pack so that is an alternative to have a power supply point in the aircraft.
I have one I am going to sell.
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If you look back through this thread (and probably others) you will find it said that the greatest threat to a glider is another glider...
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If you look back through this thread (and probably others) you will find it said that the greatest threat to a glider is another glider...
Put 15 gliders in a restricted piece of airspace in close proximity to each other and their chances of collision has to be substantially higher.
The Mark 1 eyeball is the best option of avoiding another aircraft.
Remove the MK1 eyeball to avoid collisions ie in IMC and you have to rely on other methods for the blind pilot and seperation from other aircraft. Remove those and you are in the lap of the Gods and in a game of Russian roulette.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 31st May 2009 at 23:31.
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The Mark 1 eyeball is the best option of avoiding another aircraft.
Gliders maneuver around so should be more visible, which is probably why there has not yet been a glider-GA midair, whereas GA-GA is about 1 per year.
The reason I haven't bought TCAS (£10k+) yet is because all but one UK midairs I know of happened below 1000ft (one at 1800ft), the vast majority of such low level traffic is nontransponding (such is totally obvious from flying under a radar service), and I never fly that low except when taking off or landing.
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I fly regularly in IMC OCAS, usinf radar services and the quadrantal rule as far aspossible. The biggest problem is being forced down to to 3000 ft or lower in the Southeast to stay below OCAS.
In practice if the weather is that bad there is little non transponding traffic and that includes gliders 'cos there's not likely to be much lift.
However the glider hazard on days with patchy Cu based IMC is one I shall now be more wary of!
In practice if the weather is that bad there is little non transponding traffic and that includes gliders 'cos there's not likely to be much lift.
However the glider hazard on days with patchy Cu based IMC is one I shall now be more wary of!
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Fuji Abound’s experience with PCAS match mine.
I got the unit for two reasons;
An aircraft from my strip was hit up the back by a turboprop doing 160kn just over a year ago (at 1400ft AGL). It turns out he was avoiding a micro and turned into the path of the other aircraft, all in marginal VMC.
My local international airport, whilst not part of the LARS system, used to give a very good FIS with traffic. With the advent of the BS service this has stopped.
As a result of both the above I got the PCAS box. The huge flaw is it will not detect non transponding traffic. In my case I tour at 120 – 138kn, so 99.99% of the things which can hit me up the back will have a transponder. Secondly, I have to get out of and into my strip. It is impossible to maintain a full lookout whilst joining and landing, and the PCAS gives a degree of protection as I pass through the 2000 – 500 ft “danger band”.
As Fuji mentioned, the lack of direction info is not really an issue. The unit tells you range altitude relative to you and altitude trend. This is all you need to make a difference to your chances.
If FLARM takes off in the gliding world, I will also add this. There are no certification issues, as it can be configured as a battery powered removable box and it is a much better choice than a Transponder on its own for Glider / Glider or Glider / GA conflicts, which represents the big risk.
Rod1
I got the unit for two reasons;
An aircraft from my strip was hit up the back by a turboprop doing 160kn just over a year ago (at 1400ft AGL). It turns out he was avoiding a micro and turned into the path of the other aircraft, all in marginal VMC.
My local international airport, whilst not part of the LARS system, used to give a very good FIS with traffic. With the advent of the BS service this has stopped.
As a result of both the above I got the PCAS box. The huge flaw is it will not detect non transponding traffic. In my case I tour at 120 – 138kn, so 99.99% of the things which can hit me up the back will have a transponder. Secondly, I have to get out of and into my strip. It is impossible to maintain a full lookout whilst joining and landing, and the PCAS gives a degree of protection as I pass through the 2000 – 500 ft “danger band”.
As Fuji mentioned, the lack of direction info is not really an issue. The unit tells you range altitude relative to you and altitude trend. This is all you need to make a difference to your chances.
If FLARM takes off in the gliding world, I will also add this. There are no certification issues, as it can be configured as a battery powered removable box and it is a much better choice than a Transponder on its own for Glider / Glider or Glider / GA conflicts, which represents the big risk.
Rod1
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Does PCAS work as Rod describes, if you have no transponder yourself? How does it do altitude comparison? (I understand that range is estimated by signal strength; please correct me if that is not so).
Chris N.
Chris N.
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“Does PCAS work as Rod describes, if you have no transponder yourself?”
Yes, it uses its own altitude sensor if you do not have your own, so no Transponder or encoder required in your aircraft. This is why it appears to offer a solution to the Glider / IMC conflict, as the non transponding glider will “see” the Transponder equipped aircraft at 5nm.
I tested the range by some messing about one evening with another transponder aircraft and some GPS fixes indicated it is very good.
Rod1
Yes, it uses its own altitude sensor if you do not have your own, so no Transponder or encoder required in your aircraft. This is why it appears to offer a solution to the Glider / IMC conflict, as the non transponding glider will “see” the Transponder equipped aircraft at 5nm.
I tested the range by some messing about one evening with another transponder aircraft and some GPS fixes indicated it is very good.
Rod1
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The Mark 1 eyeball is the best non-technological option of avoiding another aircraft. It is however pretty useless because an aircraft on a genuine collision trajectory will be a stationary point in your field of view (assuming straight line trajectories for both).
Gliders maneuver around so should be more visible, which is probably why there has not yet been a glider-GA midair, whereas GA-GA is about 1 per year.
Gliders maneuver around so should be more visible, which is probably why there has not yet been a glider-GA midair, whereas GA-GA is about 1 per year.
However they also fly along wave bars, often at 80 knots IAS or more, and also along cloud streets if they find a line of energy or are flying from one thermal to the next.
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As a result of both the above I got the PCAS box. The huge flaw is it will not detect non transponding traffic. In my case I tour at 120 – 138kn, so 99.99% of the things which can hit me up the back will have a transponder.
That is fine if all aircraft are transponding but they can give a false sense of security if they are not.
See and be seen is the number one in VMC with these units as a safeguard a backup.
In cloud its a different matter I would support a legal requirement for working transponders on aircraft cloud flying regardless of type. As especially TICAS becomes more standard in use such legislation would make pilot interpretated detection of other aircraft in cloud much more reliable.
Surely gliders could fit a 3 inch Fan generator to supply power for transponders?
Anything we use must be a standard across the board in aviation to give any level of reliability?
Pace