Crosswind sillyness
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Crosswind sillyness
This morning, this was a very nice Cessna 185 Amphibian. This afternoon, the pilot ignored very qualified advice to takeoff on the paved runway, which was directly into the 25kt plus wind, and attempted a takeoff on the other shorter, softer grass runway, which was in a direct crosswind. It did not work.
Though the crosswind capability of the aircraft is not limiting, there comes a point where a takeoff should just not be attempted - 25 plus knots maybe? Add to that the possible affects of a STOL kit, wing extensions, and the installation of amphibious floats, each of which could reduce the crosswind capability of the aircraft. It is apparent that the conditions exceeded either the pilot's or aircraft's or both, capability.
Added to a several hundred thousand dollar cost of a destroyed aircraft, the contamination, of the ground by avgas, and the cost for a major response from the fire department. The pilot did not require medical attention, though perhaps some recurrent training on decision making!
What a waste of a fine aircraft... What a black mark on the public's view of our collective airmanship....
A reminder for us all that we are not invincable!
Pilot DAR
Though the crosswind capability of the aircraft is not limiting, there comes a point where a takeoff should just not be attempted - 25 plus knots maybe? Add to that the possible affects of a STOL kit, wing extensions, and the installation of amphibious floats, each of which could reduce the crosswind capability of the aircraft. It is apparent that the conditions exceeded either the pilot's or aircraft's or both, capability.
Added to a several hundred thousand dollar cost of a destroyed aircraft, the contamination, of the ground by avgas, and the cost for a major response from the fire department. The pilot did not require medical attention, though perhaps some recurrent training on decision making!
What a waste of a fine aircraft... What a black mark on the public's view of our collective airmanship....
A reminder for us all that we are not invincable!
Pilot DAR
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OK some ppl have had a laugh at others - lets get back to serious......
What were the primary mistakes made, how obvious were those and could I (as person easy make those mistakes).
I often feel in a catch 22 situation in here - you dont get told nothing cause you dont know - but you will not learn nothing either.
If we are going to exemplify mistakes -then exemplify whats gone wrong and how and why - this is not a porn site of accidents.
What were the primary mistakes made, how obvious were those and could I (as person easy make those mistakes).
I often feel in a catch 22 situation in here - you dont get told nothing cause you dont know - but you will not learn nothing either.
If we are going to exemplify mistakes -then exemplify whats gone wrong and how and why - this is not a porn site of accidents.
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Jofm5
Oh quite.
I would like to point out however, one should get back to basics. Let me explain. It does us all good to watch birds flying occasionally, then we may discover the following:
- A bird will never takeoff downwind.
- A bird will not take off crosswind unless there is no other option.
- A bird will never land downwind, by choice.
As a species, they have been at it a while.
If the account by the auther is correct, this guy had a choice, either to takeoff into wind or across the wind. It appears he made the wrong decision, does it not?
Yes we have all made those mistakes and in the main, got away with it.
We should try and learn from the mistakes of others as we will not live or fly long enough to make all the mistakes ourselves.
Just my 2 cents worth, as I qualified for an received my PPL 40 years ago.
Oh quite.
I would like to point out however, one should get back to basics. Let me explain. It does us all good to watch birds flying occasionally, then we may discover the following:
- A bird will never takeoff downwind.
- A bird will not take off crosswind unless there is no other option.
- A bird will never land downwind, by choice.
As a species, they have been at it a while.
If the account by the auther is correct, this guy had a choice, either to takeoff into wind or across the wind. It appears he made the wrong decision, does it not?
Yes we have all made those mistakes and in the main, got away with it.
We should try and learn from the mistakes of others as we will not live or fly long enough to make all the mistakes ourselves.
Just my 2 cents worth, as I qualified for an received my PPL 40 years ago.
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I have no float experience so can someone tell me why he preferred the grass?
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I too am curious about why he chose the grass. It seems to me that DAR is leaving something out here.
Why would any pilot choose not to use the paved into wind runway, and instead opt for a grass strong crosswind runway. There must but something that make them decide that the cross wind runway had some advantage to them. I just cant' see what it was yet.....
Why would any pilot choose not to use the paved into wind runway, and instead opt for a grass strong crosswind runway. There must but something that make them decide that the cross wind runway had some advantage to them. I just cant' see what it was yet.....
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Originally Posted by Dublinpilot
I too am curious about why he chose the grass. It seems to me that DAR is leaving something out here.
If this is correct & the choice was available, it seems extremely foolish.
What is the layout of the airfield with ref to publc view of the runways?
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I too am curious about why he chose the grass.
Still, 25 cross would be way above my personal limit. Anybody knows what the demonstrated x-wind capabilities (if not limits) of the type (with floats and other kit as decribed) are?
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Don't know about 185 floatplanes but at our FTO, C152 Instructor limits are 12kt, Student 10kt, This is a school imposed limit I believe so not much more use than a base line guess. 25kt seems a bit excessive based on that, though maybe high hrs floatplane pilots are better.
As for the training flight, there was only one on board I believe, solo practice??
As for the training flight, there was only one on board I believe, solo practice??
Last edited by Crash one; 15th May 2009 at 12:07.
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Maybe they can now re-build it with some fixed u/c rather than them "boats" on each side?
only j/k
All crashes regardless of severity, in my eyes, is a terrible sad loss of a/c. Hope the PIC is ok. Maybe a lesson learned well, which will make him/her and us, better pilots in the future.
AWNT
only j/k
All crashes regardless of severity, in my eyes, is a terrible sad loss of a/c. Hope the PIC is ok. Maybe a lesson learned well, which will make him/her and us, better pilots in the future.
AWNT
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Thread Starter
Yes, I was wondering what I left out too...
The airport owner and the manager, both very experienced on the aircraft type, and with the conditions of the airport, tell the pilot that the grass runway, which is crosswind is also soft due to the wet conditons of spring, and a takeoff would be best done on the paved runway. So what I'm leaving out is: I struggle to imagine how the topic even came about that a takeoff was being considered crosswind, so that advice could be given, then ignored not to do it. The only thing I can imagine is that the pilot thought he could save himself a backtrack the length of the paved runway.
I agree that this should not be a porn site for accidents, and some time ago I railed agaisnt the exploitation and speculation of fatal accidents. I continue to feel that way. I had said then, and believe now that as we only have bent aluminum to deal with, and not bent lives, it can be discussed in the context of learning.
What's to be learned here? Words fail me! I cannot believe that the pilot even considered the possibility of a crosswind takeoff (in winds I can assure all, exceeded 25kts, I was there). Why was a decision even necessary?
I have flown recently with a few pilots for the first time, and found a couple of them to behave with a certain air of invincibility/complacency. One, who really should have known better scared the hell out of me with a poor decision, which even he recognized after the fact.
None of us are invincable. Yesterday I saw a beautiful Cessna wasted as a reminder of this reality. I'll be that little bit more careful as I fly, lest I somehow slip into such silliness. I offer my reminder to the group, in the hope that we can all be reminded not to be invincable/complacent, and fly with care. Following sound advice has some merit too!
Pilot DAR
The airport owner and the manager, both very experienced on the aircraft type, and with the conditions of the airport, tell the pilot that the grass runway, which is crosswind is also soft due to the wet conditons of spring, and a takeoff would be best done on the paved runway. So what I'm leaving out is: I struggle to imagine how the topic even came about that a takeoff was being considered crosswind, so that advice could be given, then ignored not to do it. The only thing I can imagine is that the pilot thought he could save himself a backtrack the length of the paved runway.
I agree that this should not be a porn site for accidents, and some time ago I railed agaisnt the exploitation and speculation of fatal accidents. I continue to feel that way. I had said then, and believe now that as we only have bent aluminum to deal with, and not bent lives, it can be discussed in the context of learning.
What's to be learned here? Words fail me! I cannot believe that the pilot even considered the possibility of a crosswind takeoff (in winds I can assure all, exceeded 25kts, I was there). Why was a decision even necessary?
I have flown recently with a few pilots for the first time, and found a couple of them to behave with a certain air of invincibility/complacency. One, who really should have known better scared the hell out of me with a poor decision, which even he recognized after the fact.
None of us are invincable. Yesterday I saw a beautiful Cessna wasted as a reminder of this reality. I'll be that little bit more careful as I fly, lest I somehow slip into such silliness. I offer my reminder to the group, in the hope that we can all be reminded not to be invincable/complacent, and fly with care. Following sound advice has some merit too!
Pilot DAR
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Pilot Dar
It is often difficult to work out why someone does something on the spur of the moment?
Maybe he was in a hurry and didnt want long taxi times? Maybe he wanted to challenge his percieved skills ? Who knows but him! it would be interesting to know what ran through his mind? but now he pays for it with more than just his pride.
I can remember landing a Seneca in a 45 kt 90 degree steady crosswind some years ago just before a snow storm put 6 inches of snow on an airfield and closed it down stranding the plane in London.
Get there itis in mine or takeoff itis in his case or maybe just lazyitis.
Having been warned of the hefty crosswind in my case I really had NO intention of landing but touching a wheel and going so maybe a bit of curiousity at what the old girl could handle
The touchdown with literally full rudder surprised me and I decided to complete the landing. The landing wasnt the worst part but holding the wing down once on the tarmac was until the speed bled off.
Ok I now know a Seneca can handle 45 kts at 90 deg very different to the demonstrated component but it could have been a different and damaged aircraft story.
The challenge? maybe a bit of that too. Who knows but him why he took off with 25 kts when he had an into wind option?
Pace
It is often difficult to work out why someone does something on the spur of the moment?
Maybe he was in a hurry and didnt want long taxi times? Maybe he wanted to challenge his percieved skills ? Who knows but him! it would be interesting to know what ran through his mind? but now he pays for it with more than just his pride.
I can remember landing a Seneca in a 45 kt 90 degree steady crosswind some years ago just before a snow storm put 6 inches of snow on an airfield and closed it down stranding the plane in London.
Get there itis in mine or takeoff itis in his case or maybe just lazyitis.
Having been warned of the hefty crosswind in my case I really had NO intention of landing but touching a wheel and going so maybe a bit of curiousity at what the old girl could handle
The touchdown with literally full rudder surprised me and I decided to complete the landing. The landing wasnt the worst part but holding the wing down once on the tarmac was until the speed bled off.
Ok I now know a Seneca can handle 45 kts at 90 deg very different to the demonstrated component but it could have been a different and damaged aircraft story.
The challenge? maybe a bit of that too. Who knows but him why he took off with 25 kts when he had an into wind option?
Pace
........anyway.....the prop and engine seem to have got away with it. Maybe the decision to have floats was a good one. Ought to make a good kitplane powerplant.
Perhaps the insurers should look into whether the pilot had just ordered a Vans RV kit?
Perhaps the insurers should look into whether the pilot had just ordered a Vans RV kit?
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Thread Starter
It's a bit of thread drift, but what the heck...
I recently posted on a different thread a comment about the perceived "right to post", but after a quick look I can't find it, I'm wondering if the entire thread has been deleted (no, SD found it for me), 'cause it was pretty bad in my estimation!
My comment was something like:
We posters are using someone's private property under their terms. This forum is not a democracy, its a dictatorship, in which people may participte or not, as they choose. If you choose to, you accept the rules, which obviously include the privilage of a moderator to unilaterally delete whatever they see fit. There is no mediation path for this.
I did not understand the birds thing either, but then I'm Canadian, and some of the British humour goes over my head!
Keep up the good work moderators. If you're not leaving at the end of the day with some montary satisfaction, at least take away a feeling of a job well done, and some apprciateion!
Pilot DAR
I recently posted on a different thread a comment about the perceived "right to post", but after a quick look I can't find it, I'm wondering if the entire thread has been deleted (no, SD found it for me), 'cause it was pretty bad in my estimation!
My comment was something like:
We posters are using someone's private property under their terms. This forum is not a democracy, its a dictatorship, in which people may participte or not, as they choose. If you choose to, you accept the rules, which obviously include the privilage of a moderator to unilaterally delete whatever they see fit. There is no mediation path for this.
I did not understand the birds thing either, but then I'm Canadian, and some of the British humour goes over my head!
Keep up the good work moderators. If you're not leaving at the end of the day with some montary satisfaction, at least take away a feeling of a job well done, and some apprciateion!
Pilot DAR
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 15th May 2009 at 17:40.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Pilot DAR,
The thread you mean is the one on FTOs, rumour & libel, and it's not deleted, just moved a couple of pages on - there's such a high number of new threads posted on the forums that "yesterdays hot topic" is on page 3 or 4 before you know it! Such is the success of PPRuNe!
Regards,
SD
The thread you mean is the one on FTOs, rumour & libel, and it's not deleted, just moved a couple of pages on - there's such a high number of new threads posted on the forums that "yesterdays hot topic" is on page 3 or 4 before you know it! Such is the success of PPRuNe!
Regards,
SD
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The bird reference may seem silly if you wish to consider their diet & social habits. However if it is only their flying capabilities that are of interest then I agree they have got it stitched up.
Perhaps we should all listen to animals a bit more, At least they don't kick the **** out of each other for no reason.
Perhaps we should all listen to animals a bit more, At least they don't kick the **** out of each other for no reason.