popham madness

[Mike Cross]

Dan Dare

I doubt that there was much compliance with ANO Rule 14

And what pray has that got to do in any way shape or form with the a/g service? The pilot is driving the machine and compliance is entirely his responsibility and no-one else's. I flew out on Saturday and back on Sunday and had no qualms. Pilots were, quite rightly, going round rather than landing when the a/c in front had not cleared the runway.

A/G does not have the authority to send aircraft around when collision is imminent and seem to significantly overstep the mark where runway useage is concerned. Having flown in to both of these events on many ocasions - give me PFA any day.

You display a lamentable lack of knowledge Air Law. If you want to have a pop at someone at least have the grace to select the correct target.

[jonkil]

If the PIC is not content landing in this environment, then the answer is simple...... stay away, there is tons of empty airfields throughout the country.

Grand day out for those of us who are pretty content to land at this type of event, as far as 99.99% pilots were concerned the controller was excellent.

[katana 1]

Fantastic Day. Yes it was busy but what a buzz.
Well done to all who made it possible.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Excellent Weekend. One aspect that may have eluded some folks is that this was theoretically a microlight event, although well supported by the slightly heavier end of GA. Many microlighters learn their craft from farm strips with only the Microlight frequency or Safetycom. They are well used to keeping themselves safe in an uncontrolled environment. Perhaps it’s one of these cases the less safe it appears, the more care people actually take.

One comment I would make is that the profusion of Hi-Viz was quite disconcerting. On Saturday, having landed on 21 it became obvious that we’d need to taxi up beside 26 to find somewhere to park. Almost everyone standing beside the taxiway seemed to be wearing some sort of hi-viz garment. Thankfully we know most of Popham’s regular marshallers by sight, so continued until we found a friendly face. Perhaps the scouts who were doing duty as landing / entry fee collectors were required to wear ‘safety’ hi-viz, but it would have been helpful if the photographers and spotters had left theirs at home.

Thanks to all at Popham for making it work, hope this is the start of a good flying season.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[Radarspod]

Having worked at Popham some years ago and operated the radio on many a busy fly in, I've read this thread with some interest and I am glad to see the place is still doing well and maintaining it's friendly and fun atmosphere.

I know it can get mental on a busy day - but that's half the challenge....nothing is more boring than a flat wide strip with a straight in approach and controlled traffic. It's because Popham is a bit different and very friendly that it's popular.

Glad to know everyone still has a good time.

RS

(Ex-Popham refueller, radio operator, landing fee collector, administrator, tie-down mower, BBQ operator, general dogsbody......)

[Dan Dare]

Er no the PFA used a similar system to that used at Oskosh,
The only time they tried full ATC was when the CAA insisted they had it at Wroughton in 1990 or 91.
They dropped it half way through the first day..............

Well actually the PFA Rallies were all full ATC except for the last two Flying-for-fun at Kemble, which were FIS, but with the proviso that the FISOs were also qualified tower ATCOs. The methods by which ATC/FIS was provided changed depending on the needs of the CAA. An implied landing clearance unless sent around seemed to work well. A temporary fudge to allow the FISOs to issue go-around instructions also worked. The fact that many pilots (and air traffic controllers) are unable to tell the difference just highlights the danger of having an ambiguous service provision.

As an Aerial Special Event CAP403 instructs

NOTE: Organisers should ensure that the type of service (i.e. ATC, FIS or AGCS) is suitable for their event and that the event has been adequately notified. ATSD may, in the interests of safety, direct the person in charge of any aerodrome (other than a Government aerodrome) to provide an air traffic control service, a flight information service or an air/ground communication service as ATSD consider appropriate.

It could be that ATSD regard this level of movements to be sensible with A/G, but I doubt that they have been given the opportunity to consider its appropriateness.

I am most certainly not of the HSE "high-viz-vest" brigade, but this event could be safer with little or no loss the fun factor and no loss of movements with procedurs appropriate for the event. Popham A/G are very helpful and I rate the airfield amoung my favourites, but transmitting "cleared for take-off at your discression - roll now!" when the runway is blatantly well occupied (as I experienced there) is asking for trouble. An event like this could also do with the extra pair of eyes on the approach to save the bacon of those with pilots with blind spots on final approach - nobody is immune from these.

I'm looking forward to G-VFWE and the eventual return of a real LAA Rally (2010?) and thank all those, who puts in lots of work to make aviation events safe and enjoyable.

[A and C]

Two interesting safety issues

First............. Rule 14.

It is one of the strange things that I can land a 78,000kg airliner at Gatwick with another aircraft on (normaly just exiting) the runway however in a non controled enviroment it is not allowed. When rule 14 is used as I have seen it used at Duxford it is an accident waiting to happen.

It must be safer for a microlight to "land after" another aircraft that is exiting at the far end of the runway than to go around and add another aircraft to the crowded circuit.

Second............ Hi Vis.

We have become so conditioned to the nanny state that now large numbers of persons turning up at these events are clad in the "hi-vis". this in now resulting in confusion as to who is part of the marshaling team and who is not!

Another case of the safety numptys shooting them selfs in the foot! I can only assume that some people are starting to think that the "hi-vis" will ward off danger like some sort of force field.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<We have become so conditioned to the nanny state that now large numbers of persons turning up at these events are clad in the "hi-vis". this in now resulting in confusion as to who is part of the marshaling team and who is not!>>

My wife and I are regular visitors to Popham, although we missed last weekend's excitement. When we first visited and asked permission to take photographs we were told it was OK if we had high-vis jackets, which we did. We were told to wear them and always have done when walking around the aircraft. Maybe Popham marshallers should have different colour jackets to make them easily distinguishable?

[HeliCraig]

Well said HD... I was just about to chip in with that.

I work in a very large factory where nearly everyone wears a Hi Viz (because, it is true, you actually can't get hurt with one on... no, really! ); so when the fire alarm goes off, or something else noteworthy happens it gets interesting to try and find appropriate person!

Solution: different coloured Hi Viz. Everyone wears yellow, except Fire Marshalls who have red, First Aiders who have Green & Security (who also provide fire & ambulance) have orange and yellow if they aren't in fire kit!

Sure Popham could solve it easily by just buying a different coloured tabbard for the marshallers! I'll leave the ATC subject to someone better qualified.

[Pitts2112]

Orange jump Suits

Folks,
The issue of Popham Marshallers in hi-viz is much simpler and already solved. The official marshallers wear orange jumpsuits, and are the only ones on the field that do, if I'm not mistaken. Most people wearing hi-viz seem to be spotters.

[HighQ]

I flew in to Popham on Saturday, but I went early and avoided the rush. The really busy time for arrivals is between 10am and 12pm I have been told, so I left my field at 7am and arrived at 8.30am. If the rest of the flying community thought about trying to time their arrivals like I did then there wouldn't be quite so much bunching of aircraft on finals during the busy time, and instead there would just be a steady stream.

I must admit the only time I worried about collisions was when I watched a Jodel landing on 26. The pilot flew over the microlights parked to the left of 21 with less than 15ft between his wheels and their wings, flaps fully down, high AOA, right along the parking area, before turning over the arrow to land on the numbers on 26. If his engine had so much as spluttered, he would have caused carnage among the massed spotters, so perhaps it wouldn't have been such a disaster after all .

Seriously though, there were two or three incidents of heavy metal aircraft flying very low and very slow over the parked micros, when I don't think it was entirely necessary. An extra few feet of clearance, and an extra 5 knots wouldn't have gone amiss. After all, 26 isn't exactly short, and it wasn't necessary to land right on the numbers, even in a Vans.

Regarding the hi-viz jackets, I agree that if they are to be worn at all, then some sort of colour coding would be a very good idea. I suggest the normal yellow for the spotters, orange for marshallers, say red with yellow bands for emergency bods, (fire, first aid, etc), and bright pink with lurid green polka dots for the person with the clip board who hands them all out to everyone

[jxk]

Anyone flown into Sun & Fun in the US? If so you'll know how disciplined they are there - no radio talk only listening. PFA tried a similar system at Cranfield one year but some people didn't follow the correct entry procedure and wanted to tell their life history over the radio. The basic premise at S & F is to get everyone into a line a few miles out (Lake Parker Power station) so that people were not joining the circuit from random directions and landing instructions issued when downwind and on finals. Again no air to ground - acknowledgement by rocking your wings.

[Windy Militant]

I must apologise to Dan Dare my memory was at fault having checked back, the rallys including Kemble were run under ATC as a temporary restricted area. My confusion arose from memories of Wroughton Radio, which was the after hours A/G which operated when the ATC shut down at 20:00hrs local until sundown. Which was the cue for us gophers to hoick the radio batteries out of the control caravan to put them on charge and head for the beer tent!

[Vino Collapso]

I used to fly in to the PFA at Cranfield back in the late 70's and early 80's. It was licensed ATC but the r/t phraseology drifted away from CAP413 simply because it had to. Quite often you would get " if the aircraft ahead of you lands on the right side of the runway then you land on the left, and vice versa". It worked but was way outside the book!

Never been to Popham but it sounds like a fun event. Unfortunately in this modern day and age you will find a line of 'regulators' just waiting to screw the 'safety' lid down on this just as soon as something nasty happens.

Imposing full licensed ATC on an event like this will only serve to slow things down whilst the controllers labour under modern day regulation.

Things aren't what they used to be.

[john ball]

I flew in on the Monday in my RV6. I found the air traffic control very good and aircraft all slotting in together around the circuit. The marshalling was also good. My only comments, are that the parking area on the east side of 21/03 has a lot of rabbit holes, which are not too good for us RV flyers as we have so little clearance unde the spats with the small wheels.
Great classic car turnout and plenty of stands. Finally, I think that charging a small landing fee of £5 was a very good idea, as it all helps the running costs of Popham.

[Billredshoes]

Hi
please have a look at this link

[tommoutrie]

What is the bit of legislation that requires the wearing of high vis jackets when airside? If anyone has an exact reference it would be very useful.

Its a sad reflection on the way pilots are trained that if an air traffic controller doesn't tell them what to do they are stuffed.

Thats a really nice photo of popham by the way!


Tom

[Mike Cross]

What is the bit of legislation that requires the wearing of high vis jackets when airside? If anyone has an exact reference it would be very useful.

There isn't one. The reason usually cited is Elfin Safety, which generally tends to show that the relevant person doesn't know how to carry out a proper risk assessment and is more concerned with @rse covering than achieving a safe working environment. The main danger of being on foot when airside is of being run over by a baggage tractor hurtling out of the gloom under the terminal at LHR or LGW, which is hardly a risk factor at most GA fields.

The "bible" is CAP 642 Airside Safety Management

It says

g) All push-back crew members should wear high visibility garments in compliance with current standards;

High-visibility clothing
6.9.8 Irrespective of other measures that are taken to provide a safe environment for personnel working in airside areas, all personnel who will be working outside (i.e. on foot) on the movement area should wear high-visibility clothing.

Note that this refers to people WORKING, which is why airline staff wear the jackets when escorting passengers on the apron but the passengers are not required to.

It also suggests that hi-vis should be worn during low-vis operations, again not a factor at most GA fields which are not equipped to operate in low vis conditions

[C42]

Your right about the pot holes! I flew in an RV8 and took off again with the spats in the back (broke one)

apart fro that it was exellent (apart from a couple of planes that jumped the Q on final!!)

I took off ay lunchtime saturday, did any one else see the 2 x C42s in the ploughed field just to the south of the airfield! these were the two that were flying around in formation and one had an engine failure, and in true formation style the wingman followed him in!!

Dave