Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
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Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
"Madeup Tower, G-ABCD..."
A few people have been talking about RT tests recently and since i've been flying alot and listening to alot of people flying recently it got me thinking...
Why do people call up ATC like that... ???
I've never done it, and my RT examiner can't understand why people do it, but people still do?
Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
G-ABCD pass your message....
Whats the point in calling up with no request.. no point at all, and it's so annoying when it's busy..
A few people have been talking about RT tests recently and since i've been flying alot and listening to alot of people flying recently it got me thinking...
Why do people call up ATC like that... ???
I've never done it, and my RT examiner can't understand why people do it, but people still do?
Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
G-ABCD pass your message....
Whats the point in calling up with no request.. no point at all, and it's so annoying when it's busy..
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It gets the air traffiker's attention without clogging the airwaves and gives ATC the opportunity to continue when they are ready.
If you launch into lengthy waffle on your opening call you will often get a "G-ABCD standby" or "say again".
The controller may be on the landline, working other frequencies, expecting a readback from someone else, handling an emergency or just not holding their pencil. More time is wasted on busy frequencies by not doing this in my opinion.
On some handovers you are instructed to "Contact xyz, callsign only" because each pilot can barely get a word in. Someone who then comes on frequency with "xyz, G-ABCD is a Cessna 152 at, err, 2000ft on a QNH of 1013 with 2 POB, heading 180, out of EG?? to EG?? on a navex routing err Trumpton, Toxteth, Cockville, etc etc" causes mayhem, p1sses off ATC with irrelevent drivel and wastes RT airtime.
If you launch into lengthy waffle on your opening call you will often get a "G-ABCD standby" or "say again".
The controller may be on the landline, working other frequencies, expecting a readback from someone else, handling an emergency or just not holding their pencil. More time is wasted on busy frequencies by not doing this in my opinion.
On some handovers you are instructed to "Contact xyz, callsign only" because each pilot can barely get a word in. Someone who then comes on frequency with "xyz, G-ABCD is a Cessna 152 at, err, 2000ft on a QNH of 1013 with 2 POB, heading 180, out of EG?? to EG?? on a navex routing err Trumpton, Toxteth, Cockville, etc etc" causes mayhem, p1sses off ATC with irrelevent drivel and wastes RT airtime.
Last edited by Fg Off Max Stout; 11th Mar 2009 at 19:51.
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No, it's wrong and sloppy RT.
Lengthy waffel? The initial call should be Call sign and what you want to request... thats only..
Giving no request means the ATC has to call you back and ask what you want... If you ask what you want in the first place then he doesnt need to reply with what do you want!?
No ones initial call is going to be G-ABCD blah blah blah c152 blah... you ask what you want.. and then they tell you to pass your details.
If they request you to call with call-sign only then fair be it, but most wont..
Lengthy waffel? The initial call should be Call sign and what you want to request... thats only..
Giving no request means the ATC has to call you back and ask what you want... If you ask what you want in the first place then he doesnt need to reply with what do you want!?
No ones initial call is going to be G-ABCD blah blah blah c152 blah... you ask what you want.. and then they tell you to pass your details.
If they request you to call with call-sign only then fair be it, but most wont..
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I was always taught it was incorrect RT to call up with just their and your call sign. Sitting in ATC hearing pilots doing so seems to frustrate the guy on the desk and prompts an off air sarcastic comment. By simply adding your request, the controller can ask for the only bits of your message they need and avoids them having to ask you to pass the whole of your message. Much more efficient.
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No, it's wrong and sloppy RT
If your message is simple, fair enough. If you need to communicated a bit more information and the frequency is a busy one you're better off 'booking your slot' before performing you soliloquy - that's why so many professional pilots do it. I'm not just making this up and you did ask!
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Before I get jumped on again, I'm just trying to answer the original question of why people do it - I'll leave it to others to argue over the documentation and whether or not it's 'correct'.
Of course, maybe the original poster didn't want an answer
Of course, maybe the original poster didn't want an answer
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that's why so many professional pilots do it.
It's just frustrating hearing it since it's not standard, and there's absolutely no sence to it.. The ATC wants to know what you want on the initial call.. he doesn't want to call you back to ASK you what you want.. ?
Well it wasn't rhetorical.. A lot of people do it, and alot of people use PPRUNE, i was wondering if anyone(perhaps those that do) could shred some light onto why people do it?
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Not sure the size of the airfield you fly out of but I am doing my PPL at a very busy field and I have certainly been taught to do an initial "Tower G-ABCD" call.
The most usual response is to standby and then when the tower has a moment they ask for the message.
Seems to work pretty well and gives the ATC guys a bit more control.
The RT book I have recommends that the initial call is a radio check which achieves the same thing I guess. Nice short call that then gives the ATC the chance to ask you to standby or pass message if they are ready.
The request taxi call can be a little lengthy...
Tessract
The most usual response is to standby and then when the tower has a moment they ask for the message.
Seems to work pretty well and gives the ATC guys a bit more control.
The RT book I have recommends that the initial call is a radio check which achieves the same thing I guess. Nice short call that then gives the ATC the chance to ask you to standby or pass message if they are ready.
The request taxi call can be a little lengthy...
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I'm a professional pilot and I do it. I haven't posted on here all that often but your tone has made me feel compelled to.
Whether you add "...for FIS/zone transit etc" on the end of your initial call up makes very little difference. You still have to pass your details to ATC, and you have made them aware that you require a service simply by calling up.
I doubt this little addition, whilst technically correct, is worth getting wound up over in the way that you are.
Whether you add "...for FIS/zone transit etc" on the end of your initial call up makes very little difference. You still have to pass your details to ATC, and you have made them aware that you require a service simply by calling up.
I doubt this little addition, whilst technically correct, is worth getting wound up over in the way that you are.
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The request taxi call can be a little lengthy...
Not that lengthy. Assuming you have actually booked out by some other means first so they're expecting your call.
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"Scottish Information GABCD".......is OK by me....I may be busy on a land line or talking to another sector...but when ready I will respond "GABCD Scottish Information pass your message".......then and only then you can give me your request and life story!!........If your initial call includes Callsign ,type, position, from, to, present level, service required, your mothers name and name of Bank manager my respone may be GABCD say again!!! Therefore dont waste valuable RT time and please only give your callsign on initial contact.
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"Madeup Tower G-ABCD taxi information beta runway 12 QNH 1020"
Is not exactly an epic but it is long enough and it is what ATC seems to expect. They, certainly tend to ask me for supplementary information if I miss anything, which seems a waste of time.
Anyway, I am certainly not an expert and only really repeating what I have been taught but I can see some benefits to a very concise initial call, especially on a busy frequency.
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Initial call, Free call.. might have got mixed up...
Im not talking about calls on the ground, im talking about free calls..
Example.. G-CD free call MadeUp Radar on 117.2 Bye..
Scenario 1
G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD.."
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"
__________
Scenario 2
G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your details"
Now, you've minimilized your communication by telling him what you want on the first call. What is the point in telling him your call sign.. it only means he has to ask you what you want... POINTLESS.
If he's busy he'll say Standby and then ask you to pass your details when he's ready. If you free call with your Call Sign and he's busy he'll say Standby and then he'll further have to ask you what you want AFTER that cause you didn't tell him what you wanted in the first place..
Im not talking about calls on the ground, im talking about free calls..
Example.. G-CD free call MadeUp Radar on 117.2 Bye..
Scenario 1
G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD.."
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"
__________
Scenario 2
G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your details"
Now, you've minimilized your communication by telling him what you want on the first call. What is the point in telling him your call sign.. it only means he has to ask you what you want... POINTLESS.
If he's busy he'll say Standby and then ask you to pass your details when he's ready. If you free call with your Call Sign and he's busy he'll say Standby and then he'll further have to ask you what you want AFTER that cause you didn't tell him what you wanted in the first place..
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G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD.."
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"
But if you're going to feed the controller your details and your request in little bits, yes, then it's going to take much, much longer.
BTW is "pass your details" actually CAP-whatever compliant? I only know about "pass your message". In any case it's a UK thing and I don't fly there all that often. The rest of the world just uses "go ahead" or something when the controller is ready for your (possibly lengthy) details and request.
Last edited by BackPacker; 11th Mar 2009 at 22:41.
My experience is mainly in the US... and I'd say it depends on what you need to say. For a handover, it's very short anyway, so...
"Norcal Approach, N5296S, level at 5500, VFR Palo Alto" is just fine as an initial call. If IFR, it's even shorter, since you can stop at the altitude.
If it's a first-time request, that's a different story. Then I always start with, "Norcal Approach, N5296S, VFR Request." When they have time they will ask for details. If you give them the whole shebang on the first call, chances are all you'll get is "repeat" anyway. (Either they're not busy, in which case the extra call is no big deal, or they are, and they would prefer to slot your message in when in suits them). (Oh, for the pedantic, I only say "Norcal Approach" if that's who I'm talking to, and I only say N5296S if that's what I'm flying. Otherwise of course I make appropriate substitutions).
But when I initially call a tower, I do normally give them the whole thing since it's short anyway.
"Palo Alto Tower, N5296S over Joe's Tire and Muffler at 1500 with Bravo for landing."
(We don't have acronyms for reporting points here, you have to say the name. Of course if you're a visitor you will have no clue where Joe's Tire and Muffler is, and that can be a problem, but that's the way it is anyway. And while I made up Joe's Tire and Muffler, "The Old Birdhouse" is frequently used by PAO tower when calling traffic, and "The Sunken Ship" is a commonly used reporting point).
n5296s (this time)
"Norcal Approach, N5296S, level at 5500, VFR Palo Alto" is just fine as an initial call. If IFR, it's even shorter, since you can stop at the altitude.
If it's a first-time request, that's a different story. Then I always start with, "Norcal Approach, N5296S, VFR Request." When they have time they will ask for details. If you give them the whole shebang on the first call, chances are all you'll get is "repeat" anyway. (Either they're not busy, in which case the extra call is no big deal, or they are, and they would prefer to slot your message in when in suits them). (Oh, for the pedantic, I only say "Norcal Approach" if that's who I'm talking to, and I only say N5296S if that's what I'm flying. Otherwise of course I make appropriate substitutions).
But when I initially call a tower, I do normally give them the whole thing since it's short anyway.
"Palo Alto Tower, N5296S over Joe's Tire and Muffler at 1500 with Bravo for landing."
(We don't have acronyms for reporting points here, you have to say the name. Of course if you're a visitor you will have no clue where Joe's Tire and Muffler is, and that can be a problem, but that's the way it is anyway. And while I made up Joe's Tire and Muffler, "The Old Birdhouse" is frequently used by PAO tower when calling traffic, and "The Sunken Ship" is a commonly used reporting point).
n5296s (this time)
Dunno if interesting to you, but where I live and fly, inital call is always strictly "XXX TWR, OY-YYY" and nothing else. Everybody knows what's to follow when TWR replies "OY-YYY go ahead". AC passes a strictly defined sequence of details + the request. This irrespective of what kind of station you're talking to and what kind of services it provides (TWR, APP, DEP, FIS). TWR would never ask for details unless pilot screwed up.
BTW, re "information beta", is information G then "infomation gamma" ? :-)
BTW, re "information beta", is information G then "infomation gamma" ? :-)
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fishbangwollop
Request and life story....
Surely if people use a common standard rather than attempting to second guess the preferences of individual ATC units there will be a reduction in "life story" R/T with an attendant reduction in the possibility of misunderstandings.
It takes a less than a second for the added request... so time isn`t an issue surely.
The response to "pass your message" by a trained pilot only takes seconds if they have learned the rhythm...
Whilst it may be argued by some that the CAP413 response is too long/short/ etc it should be encouraged. A widely used standard is most likely to lead to it's adoption by all but the most reluctant.
Look through back issues of the CAP 413 and you'll see this response has evolved over time, but Instructors have to teach according to a published brief otherwise we get life stories as people struggle to conform to the preferences of whoever they flew with last time.
innit...
"Scottish Information GABCD".......is OK by me....I may be busy on a land line or talking to another sector...but when ready I will respond "GABCD Scottish Information pass your message".......then and only then you can give me your request and life story!!........If your initial call includes Callsign ,type, position, from, to, present level, service required, your mothers name and name of Bank manager my respone may be GABCD say again!!! Therefore dont waste valuable RT time and please only give your callsign on initial contact
Surely if people use a common standard rather than attempting to second guess the preferences of individual ATC units there will be a reduction in "life story" R/T with an attendant reduction in the possibility of misunderstandings.
It takes a less than a second for the added request... so time isn`t an issue surely.
The response to "pass your message" by a trained pilot only takes seconds if they have learned the rhythm...
Whilst it may be argued by some that the CAP413 response is too long/short/ etc it should be encouraged. A widely used standard is most likely to lead to it's adoption by all but the most reluctant.
Look through back issues of the CAP 413 and you'll see this response has evolved over time, but Instructors have to teach according to a published brief otherwise we get life stories as people struggle to conform to the preferences of whoever they flew with last time.
innit...
