Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
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The OP's objection to "x-twr, gabcd" as opposed to "x-twr, gabcd request bacon sandwich with tomato sauce and plenty of black pepper" seem's to be that he considers the latter to be less time wastefull? Well it certainly takes more time to pass this message and if for some unknown reason the station is unable to reply(radio just gone u/s, or sudden case of food poisoning fall out
) then he would have wasted more of his time uttering a longer initial call. Remember that if on first contact you receive no reply, then wait 10 secs and repeat, still nothing then one more time. If still no answer then proceede with blind calls. This procedure was installed to take account of the fact that a radio station, for whatever reason, may not always be answered. Therefore its pointless saying any more than who you are untill you have established contact!
And i must agree with Fg Off Max Stout and all, that your tone and attitude seem to be one that may not be best conducive to aviation. Basically you sound like a prat
Safe Flying one and all!!
) then he would have wasted more of his time uttering a longer initial call. Remember that if on first contact you receive no reply, then wait 10 secs and repeat, still nothing then one more time. If still no answer then proceede with blind calls. This procedure was installed to take account of the fact that a radio station, for whatever reason, may not always be answered. Therefore its pointless saying any more than who you are untill you have established contact! And i must agree with Fg Off Max Stout and all, that your tone and attitude seem to be one that may not be best conducive to aviation. Basically you sound like a prat
Safe Flying one and all!!
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What I personally prefer
MadeUp Radar, G-ABCD requesting xxx service.
why ?
-if I don't have your details, I'll have to catch your callsign and write it on a strip (if I am on the phone, the headset will have the phone line in one ear and the RT on the other one, so it's easy to mishear things)
-if I know what type of service you're after I can already think ahead in terms of separation (if required). This is more relevant if IFR.
-when you tuni into a frequency, you don't have a good awareness of how busy it is, or what's going on, as you haven't heard what's going on yet. There could be more important things to do. If you hog the frequency with a long call, someone else could go thru the ILS while listening to your trip details.
So, yes keep it short and simple, with a request of the service.
If planning on a zone transit, or requesting a service from a busy unit, it is always recommendable to phone your details to the ATC unit before departure.
That way, the assistant (for as long as we have them !!!) will have your details prepared and that will improve your chances of a slick and seamless response !!!
MadeUp Radar, G-ABCD requesting xxx service.
why ?
-if I don't have your details, I'll have to catch your callsign and write it on a strip (if I am on the phone, the headset will have the phone line in one ear and the RT on the other one, so it's easy to mishear things)
-if I know what type of service you're after I can already think ahead in terms of separation (if required). This is more relevant if IFR.
-when you tuni into a frequency, you don't have a good awareness of how busy it is, or what's going on, as you haven't heard what's going on yet. There could be more important things to do. If you hog the frequency with a long call, someone else could go thru the ILS while listening to your trip details.
So, yes keep it short and simple, with a request of the service.
If planning on a zone transit, or requesting a service from a busy unit, it is always recommendable to phone your details to the ATC unit before departure.
That way, the assistant (for as long as we have them !!!) will have your details prepared and that will improve your chances of a slick and seamless response !!!
3 Flight Progress Strips
3.1 Commonly, flight progress strips are used to display flight data. The following information may be of use to ANSPs in developing a system of flight data display utilising flight progress strips.
3.2 Strip Design
3.2.1 Strips should include pre-defined markings to permit specific items of information to be recorded in a standard manner. Colour should be used where possible to clearly denote different types of flight. Typically, flight data relating to arriving flights is displayed on buff coloured strips, departing flights on blue coloured strips, local flights on pink coloured strips and transit flights on green coloured strips.
3.1 Commonly, flight progress strips are used to display flight data. The following information may be of use to ANSPs in developing a system of flight data display utilising flight progress strips.
3.2 Strip Design
3.2.1 Strips should include pre-defined markings to permit specific items of information to be recorded in a standard manner. Colour should be used where possible to clearly denote different types of flight. Typically, flight data relating to arriving flights is displayed on buff coloured strips, departing flights on blue coloured strips, local flights on pink coloured strips and transit flights on green coloured strips.
I was taught radio by an ATC. He liked to know on initial call just enough to know what colour strip to use to write down your call sign, otherwise he might need to throw away the first strip and start again on a different one. The quote is from the ATC Manual Part 1.
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Ok actual example:
yesterday I was dropping someone off at Cranfield. On the return I contacted Coventry Radar for a service and heard the following:
Coventry Radar, G-XXXX C152 from XX going to XX VFR 2000 1018 request basic service.
G-XXXX that is far too much information for the first transmission, Callsign only on first contact
Its not sloppy RT to use just callsign, its just a different approach that some controllers prefer.
Nick
yesterday I was dropping someone off at Cranfield. On the return I contacted Coventry Radar for a service and heard the following:
Coventry Radar, G-XXXX C152 from XX going to XX VFR 2000 1018 request basic service.
G-XXXX that is far too much information for the first transmission, Callsign only on first contact
Its not sloppy RT to use just callsign, its just a different approach that some controllers prefer.
Nick
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nick14,
I agree with that, but I always include what service I'm requesting on initial contact, for example,
"Cranfield Approach, G-XXXX request basic service".
Just gives everyone a brief heads up on what you want exactly
I agree with that, but I always include what service I'm requesting on initial contact, for example,
"Cranfield Approach, G-XXXX request basic service".
Just gives everyone a brief heads up on what you want exactly
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Just imagine it the other way round - how would a controller react if a pilot were to respond:
"XXX Approach, that transmission is too long. Three specific phrases only in each message."
I think it is called interpersonal skills ...
JD
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Heard once going into leeds as an Intial call.
"Leeeeeds approach G-xxxx eh up"
Controller never missed a beat and cleared him into the zone via Eccup at not above 2k.
The read back was "Champion G-xxxx"
"Leeeeeds approach G-xxxx eh up"
Controller never missed a beat and cleared him into the zone via Eccup at not above 2k.
The read back was "Champion G-xxxx"
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I do sometimes depending how busy the frequency is.
Interestingly did anyone hear the problems yesterday with people requesting odd services and an air of confusion over the new system?
My pax was commenting on how no one sounded like they knew they were asking for/getting??
Nick
Interestingly did anyone hear the problems yesterday with people requesting odd services and an air of confusion over the new system?
My pax was commenting on how no one sounded like they knew they were asking for/getting??
Nick
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It's good to talk
All the foregoing semantics has been quite entertaining but the main message is TALK TO SOMEONE.
Does it really matter to get the call exactly correct-the contact is the important bit and the fact you are letting ATC and other traffic that you are there?
I,myself prefer 'Anytown Approach,this is G-XXX' and then give all the detail after 'pass your message'.
If you have got 'standby' after rattling off a long first call,you're only going to have to do it all over again
MM
Does it really matter to get the call exactly correct-the contact is the important bit and the fact you are letting ATC and other traffic that you are there?
I,myself prefer 'Anytown Approach,this is G-XXX' and then give all the detail after 'pass your message'.
If you have got 'standby' after rattling off a long first call,you're only going to have to do it all over again
MM
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From an Area Fiso's view.......please on initial call use callsign only.....I then will resond with either GXXXX "Standby".....that means I am busy doing other things!! or GXXXX "pass your message" that means please tell me your requirements i.e. C152 Prestwick to carlisle passing Cumnock 3000ft VFR request a Basic Service.........job done!!!
I shall be flamed, but this entire thread sounds entirely silly to me.
People talking about what some ATC or instructor tought, told or preferred...
Surely there must be a rules regulating how an initial radio call is to be made ? Should be the end of the story ?
Not saying that things are better where I come from, but if a pilot does this:
"XX-ABC YY Tower"
"XX-ABC Go ahead (or pass your message)"
"Request entering zone via bladibla"
She shall be ignored to death and left burning fuel while circling !
Correct example: "XX-ABC is a Airbus three eight zero, two persons, VFR from A to B, position somewhere, X feet, squawk seven zero zero zero, received information charlie, request entering control zone via Z for full stop landing"
People talking about what some ATC or instructor tought, told or preferred...
Surely there must be a rules regulating how an initial radio call is to be made ? Should be the end of the story ?
Not saying that things are better where I come from, but if a pilot does this:
"XX-ABC YY Tower"
"XX-ABC Go ahead (or pass your message)"
"Request entering zone via bladibla"
She shall be ignored to death and left burning fuel while circling !
Correct example: "XX-ABC is a Airbus three eight zero, two persons, VFR from A to B, position somewhere, X feet, squawk seven zero zero zero, received information charlie, request entering control zone via Z for full stop landing"
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Good morning!
There are rules for everything. In this case, _the_ rule is called "ICAO DOC 9432 Manual of Radiotelephony". There are many national excemptions to these ICAO procedures that can be found in the AIPs of the various countries. Only these are relevant. Not what your textbook, your instructor or your local ATC buddy wants you to believe.
Correct maybe in Denmark, not correct once you cross the border to the south. See german AIP or geman "NfL I 81/05" (that your friend google may find on the internet and that contains the current radio communications procedures in my country). It specifically states that VFR flights must only pass their message if so instructed by ATC. The only exception being frequency changes where you may pass your message immediately when calling the new frequency. (IFR procedures are slightly different). Note that "GO AHEAD" has been deleted from the phraseology some years ago. You may pass your message if ATC calls you back with your callsign alone.
And coming back to the example above: Just imagine someone being on a two mile final, waiting for a delayed landing clearance, when such a call comes through. The aeroplanes I fly are not the biggest or most expensive to operate, but still your "correct" call will cost my boss something like 500 to 600 Euros for the go-around. He will love you forever afterwards...
Greetings, Max
Surely there must be a rules regulating how an initial radio call is to be made ?
Correct example: "XX-ABC ..."
And coming back to the example above: Just imagine someone being on a two mile final, waiting for a delayed landing clearance, when such a call comes through. The aeroplanes I fly are not the biggest or most expensive to operate, but still your "correct" call will cost my boss something like 500 to 600 Euros for the go-around. He will love you forever afterwards...
Greetings, Max
Definitely 100% agree with JohnHarris on this one. Good grief guys, get over it. Keep radio calls short, to the point, and appropriate to the level and nature of traffic on the freq. Use common sense. Don't obsess over the GUIDANCE given in the manuals, do the right thing (within such actual rules as exist of course). How hard is that?
It's times like this that I'm so happy to fly in a country that doesn't obsess over this kind of irrelevant trivia. And don't even get me going on Mayday vs PanPan...
n(thank goodness)5296s
It's times like this that I'm so happy to fly in a country that doesn't obsess over this kind of irrelevant trivia. And don't even get me going on Mayday vs PanPan...
n(thank goodness)5296s
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I'm a PPL who flies from Cambridge, which has seperate tower and approach controllers.
When departing and tower hand me off to approach I call up with "Cambridge APP, G-XXXX request basic service." - Lets them know who I am and what I want.
When returning and approach pass me off to tower I call up with simply "Cambridge tower, G-XXXX."
The two controllers sit next to each other in the tower, the tower controller knows that I'm landing so why say anything more.
Whenever I've called up tower with just my callsign I've never had a problem, they come back to me with joining instructions and that's that.
When departing and tower hand me off to approach I call up with "Cambridge APP, G-XXXX request basic service." - Lets them know who I am and what I want.
When returning and approach pass me off to tower I call up with simply "Cambridge tower, G-XXXX."
The two controllers sit next to each other in the tower, the tower controller knows that I'm landing so why say anything more.
Whenever I've called up tower with just my callsign I've never had a problem, they come back to me with joining instructions and that's that.
Thanks "whats next" / Max for your reply, I think you illustrtate the problem: Seemingly in the UK there's no standard and ditto globally. I e.g. have no idea what "basic service" means !!!. I'm amazed that aircraft carrying thousands of people can cross the continents each day without any real standard phraseology.
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I'm a PPL who flies from Cambridge
Why is Gargleblaster flying an A380 with only 2 POB? Either he's lost all his passengers, or he's not entirely legal for a ferry/test flight. 
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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As for getting you started on Mayday vs. Pan-Pan-Pan, it might be a start if the self-appointed imported Guard Police on 121.5 in UK airspace weren't quite so easily defined by a specific accent....reminicent of banjo duels, and canoe trips which end badly.
Don't get me wrong - your sentiments are sound - I'm all for appropriate, and preferably short and pithy RT, but being lectured on the subject from a nation where the official regulatory text on the subject appears to have been drawn directly from the script of Smokey and the Bandit, is a tad annoying - to say the least.
