BBC reporting possible 'mid air collision'
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shortstripper said
I agree with this sentiment, but to some extent all of us who post here on pprune are guilty of the same.
Because we are flyers, we attach our interest to the story. People are killed every day in all sorts of circumstances and for most of us it is just another news story.
This is a sad and tragic story but lets put it in perspective. these deaths are no worse than any other..............ANY death is a tragedy.
It's terrible when accidents like this happen, but we need to put them into perspective. To almost dismiss kids killed in cars as just normal accidents and those killed in aircraft as being any more tragic would be stupid. Unfortunately, most of the press is sensationalist and well, STUPID!
Because we are flyers, we attach our interest to the story. People are killed every day in all sorts of circumstances and for most of us it is just another news story.
This is a sad and tragic story but lets put it in perspective. these deaths are no worse than any other..............ANY death is a tragedy.
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Quite amusing reading from yet another aviation-related Daily Tory article riddled as always with inaccuracies, blatant lies, rediculous assumptions/theories and (probably made-up) testimonies from nobodies.
You do not know that to make the above comments! It could be a pile of rubbish but it could also be totally true. The only fact we know 100% is that two aircraft collided and due to that collision four people have tragically lost their lives. Somebody messed up big time?
Pace
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Sorry Pace, wasn't directing that at you personally my friend, was merely expressing exasperation at said tabloid article.
If a Tutor was worth £400K the RAF wouldn't have any; also it would be nothing short of a miracle if any G115 would be able to reach 200mph as stated in the article! When I was on them in the cadets I think we were lucky to get 110 Knots indicated at 24"/2500 and leaned to best power.
Smithy
If a Tutor was worth £400K the RAF wouldn't have any; also it would be nothing short of a miracle if any G115 would be able to reach 200mph as stated in the article! When I was on them in the cadets I think we were lucky to get 110 Knots indicated at 24"/2500 and leaned to best power.
Smithy
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Smithy
Thats ok as didnt think it was personal
i think the more experienced you are as a pilot the more likely you are going to give the controls to a non pilot.
Experience breeds confidence. As you have done it so many times before your happy to sit back and give a non pilot the thrill of their lives always knowing you can take control.
These instructors were experienced and could quite easely have let the non pilots try formation flying with small corrections by themselves. But small corrections wont stop a large unexpected input with disasterous results at such close proximity.
I am not saying that is the scenario but it is a likely situation which could have answered why two experienced pilot would collide in formation.
Whatever sadly someone messed up big time.
Pace
Thats ok as didnt think it was personal
i think the more experienced you are as a pilot the more likely you are going to give the controls to a non pilot.Experience breeds confidence. As you have done it so many times before your happy to sit back and give a non pilot the thrill of their lives always knowing you can take control.
These instructors were experienced and could quite easely have let the non pilots try formation flying with small corrections by themselves. But small corrections wont stop a large unexpected input with disasterous results at such close proximity.
I am not saying that is the scenario but it is a likely situation which could have answered why two experienced pilot would collide in formation.
Whatever sadly someone messed up big time.
Pace
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Whatever sadly someone messed up big time.
Unless of course you mean that people other than those on board might also have messed up at some point. Aircraft designers, airspace designers, Regulators, Authorities, etc, etc.
Maybe the pilots simply didn't see each other and everything else from aircraft design and blind spots to uncontrolled airspace, lack of conspicuity technology to flight authorisations, etc, etc, conspired against them.
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How much is a Tutor, assuming some possibly fancy (overpriced) RAF modifications?
Grob did specialise in building small batches for special-relationship customers like this.
I had one of their salesmen explain this to me once; why the Grob 140 was priced at Euro 1.5M for example.
Now they've gone bust.
Grob did specialise in building small batches for special-relationship customers like this.
I had one of their salesmen explain this to me once; why the Grob 140 was priced at Euro 1.5M for example.
Now they've gone bust.
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Pace - Are you speaking with any kind of knowledge of this topic whatsoever? Or are you just making it up, like the newspapers and the so-called experts supplying them with information? As someone reasonably close to the incident I find your comments pretty damn offensive to be frank. Accidents do happen, something our modern culture of blame could well do with remembering, and while someone MAY have "messed up" there is no way anyone can say that for sure at this stage.
Arranging a mid-air rendezvous safely is something every military pilot would be capable of doing, but I'm not for a moment saying that is the cause of this accident. Formation flying is NOT a routine part of AEF flying, and I very much doubt if anyone in their right mind would ever give someone on their first trip ever control in close formation.
I can think of several possible causes for this very unfortunate incident, but can we all please refrain from (predominantly) uninformed speculation and wait for the various investigations to run their course.
Arranging a mid-air rendezvous safely is something every military pilot would be capable of doing, but I'm not for a moment saying that is the cause of this accident. Formation flying is NOT a routine part of AEF flying, and I very much doubt if anyone in their right mind would ever give someone on their first trip ever control in close formation.
I can think of several possible causes for this very unfortunate incident, but can we all please refrain from (predominantly) uninformed speculation and wait for the various investigations to run their course.
Last edited by Knight Paladin; 16th Feb 2009 at 19:03.
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Pace - Are you speaking with any kind of knowledge of this topic whatsoever? Or are you just making it up, like the newspapers and the so-called experts supplying them with information? As someone reasonably close to the incident I find your comments pretty damn offensive to be frank. Accidents do happen, something our modern culture of blame could well do with remembering, and while someone MAY have "messed up" there is no way anyone can say that for sure at this stage.
Dont see why you should see my comments as offensive? You say you have several possible explanations? Share them!
Most accidents are Pilot Error and bar some failure which caused the aircraft to hit each other then sadly its likely to be pilot error( a better phrase than messed up so my apologies for that )
I have no knowledge of the accident but purely was referring to the press report which suggested that the two passengers may have been given control.
My observation was that with more experienced pilots that becomes more likely. As someone who would be classified as a reasonably experienced pilot I could identify with that and was reinforcing what may have been a likely cause as suggested in the press.
As 10540 said waiting for a AIBB report? wait at least a year and you may not even have a conclusive answer and by then there is little interest.
I am not of the brigade who are against discussing possible accident scenarios. I feel strongly that they should be discussed as long as they are not put forward as fact.
Thats ok as didnt think it was personal i think the more experienced you are as a pilot the more likely you are going to give the controls to a non pilot.
Experience breeds confidence. As you have done it so many times before your happy to sit back and give a non pilot the thrill of their lives always knowing you can take control.
These instructors were experienced and could quite easely have let the non pilots try formation flying with small corrections by themselves. But small corrections wont stop a large unexpected input with disasterous results at such close proximity.
I am not saying that is the scenario but it is a likely situation which could have answered why two experienced pilot would collide in formation.
Experience breeds confidence. As you have done it so many times before your happy to sit back and give a non pilot the thrill of their lives always knowing you can take control.
These instructors were experienced and could quite easely have let the non pilots try formation flying with small corrections by themselves. But small corrections wont stop a large unexpected input with disasterous results at such close proximity.
I am not saying that is the scenario but it is a likely situation which could have answered why two experienced pilot would collide in formation.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Feb 2009 at 00:39.
Pace, I have to say that you appear to continually harp on about that press article you linked earlier as if you're somehow trying to justify it. You didn't write the article did you?
Of course the cadets may have taken control - that is the whole point of an air experience flight. It doesn't need a newspaper to tell us that. But from the newspaper's point of view - it makes a great story to tell to Joe public who's terrified at the thought of "unqualified" persons at the controls of an aircraft (dunno how they think pilots ever get trained
).
Of course the cadets may have taken control - that is the whole point of an air experience flight. It doesn't need a newspaper to tell us that. But from the newspaper's point of view - it makes a great story to tell to Joe public who's terrified at the thought of "unqualified" persons at the controls of an aircraft (dunno how they think pilots ever get trained
).
This is a sad and tragic story but lets put it in perspective. these deaths are no worse than any other..............ANY death is a tragedy.
In this particular accident they were premature accidental deaths of (presumably, but not verified) fit people in the primes of their lives - that is tragic and worse than many other deaths.
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Pace, I have to say that you appear to continually harp on about that press article you linked earlier as if you're somehow trying to justify it. You didn't write the article did you?
No did not write the article just get frustrated at some who try and stifle discussion on accidents in a pilot forum every time we have a fatal accident with the usual excuse of wait for the AAIB reports a couple of years hence.
As someone reasonably close to the incident I find your comments pretty damn offensive to be frank
Pace
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The fact that The Sun and others are wheeling out heavyweight aviation experts such as Jordan Jones, 18, a greenkeeper for Porthcawl, for their opinion really says it all. His expert opinion, that the pilots were showing off and doing stunts, is clearly worthless and fortunately most people, even Sun readers can see it for what it is. The papers should be embarrassed to publish such pointless, ill-informed drivel, but that has never stopped them before.
Everyone in aviation should know by now that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and so even the 'facts' of this accident reported in the media (as opposed to downright opinion) are far from certain. One eye-witness account implied that the aircraft were in formation, another that they were definitely not in formation and another that one or both were doing aerobatics.
I would be surpised if these aircraft had been flying in formation (authed or otherwise). No way would control be given to first-time-in-an-aeroplane 13 year olds if in formation. Formation aeros on an AEF sortie - not a chance. Do aircraft in formation collide when being flown by trained military pilots - very rarely.
My gut feeling is that this is just a random collision between two aircraft operating independently; perhaps one transiting the area and the other doing aerobatics. A bad luck example of an inherent risk in aviation. 'Big sky theory' and 'see and avoid' will never be 100% effective and this kind of accident though very rare is virtually unavoidable. Bear in mind that good lookout will have been drilled into these pilots. The RAF know that a zero accident rate cannot be achieved in military flying - fortunately the AEF accident rate is very close to zero. Flying or any other fun activities carry a certain degree of risk, unavoidable accidents do occur and sometimes nobody is blameworthy. The media, public and some ppruners would do well do dwell on that for a moment.
That said, this is an absolutely tragic event and I'm sure that everyone feels in some way connected. This must not be allowed to inhibit the AEF, nor should kids be wrapped in cotton wool.
Everyone in aviation should know by now that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and so even the 'facts' of this accident reported in the media (as opposed to downright opinion) are far from certain. One eye-witness account implied that the aircraft were in formation, another that they were definitely not in formation and another that one or both were doing aerobatics.
I would be surpised if these aircraft had been flying in formation (authed or otherwise). No way would control be given to first-time-in-an-aeroplane 13 year olds if in formation. Formation aeros on an AEF sortie - not a chance. Do aircraft in formation collide when being flown by trained military pilots - very rarely.
My gut feeling is that this is just a random collision between two aircraft operating independently; perhaps one transiting the area and the other doing aerobatics. A bad luck example of an inherent risk in aviation. 'Big sky theory' and 'see and avoid' will never be 100% effective and this kind of accident though very rare is virtually unavoidable. Bear in mind that good lookout will have been drilled into these pilots. The RAF know that a zero accident rate cannot be achieved in military flying - fortunately the AEF accident rate is very close to zero. Flying or any other fun activities carry a certain degree of risk, unavoidable accidents do occur and sometimes nobody is blameworthy. The media, public and some ppruners would do well do dwell on that for a moment.
That said, this is an absolutely tragic event and I'm sure that everyone feels in some way connected. This must not be allowed to inhibit the AEF, nor should kids be wrapped in cotton wool.
Last edited by Fg Off Max Stout; 17th Feb 2009 at 12:03.
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Formation AEF flights
I was an Air Cadet for years (from a 1st class CDT at 13 to 21 when I left as a CWO to become a CI) and I can honestly say that I have never heard of AEF flights making an airborne rendezvous let alone a formation flight so I would be truly shocked if these aircraft were flying in formation.
AEF training flights are conducted in a very simialar way to PPL lessons, they start off very easy and progress, you start with 'push the stick the left, plane rolls left, push right plane rolls right.' The next step isn't formation flying- these are 13/ 14 year olds that we are talking about.
The most advanced manoeuvre that I took the controls for was a loop and that was after about 10 hours, anything more than that was conducted by the pilot/ instructor. The risks on these flights really are reduced as far as they can be.
One important thing to remember is that AEF flights depart from the same airfield, go to the same training area and then return to the same airfield. I think it is more likely that the routes would have been almost identical so one could be returning whilst the other is just setting out. I would rate this as more likely than the Tutors going for a formation flight.
My thoughts are with everyone that is left behind by this accident.
AEF training flights are conducted in a very simialar way to PPL lessons, they start off very easy and progress, you start with 'push the stick the left, plane rolls left, push right plane rolls right.' The next step isn't formation flying- these are 13/ 14 year olds that we are talking about.
The most advanced manoeuvre that I took the controls for was a loop and that was after about 10 hours, anything more than that was conducted by the pilot/ instructor. The risks on these flights really are reduced as far as they can be.One important thing to remember is that AEF flights depart from the same airfield, go to the same training area and then return to the same airfield. I think it is more likely that the routes would have been almost identical so one could be returning whilst the other is just setting out. I would rate this as more likely than the Tutors going for a formation flight.
My thoughts are with everyone that is left behind by this accident.
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I have never heard of AEF formation flights either, and it is my firm belief that this would never be attempted on an AEF. I believe the accident theory behind the "formation flight" is being perpatrated by certain poor-quality newspapers whose only good use is for wrapping chips in.
I cannot recall there being an AEF accident until now, and the Tutor itself has an excellent safety record. I will thus refrain from theorising as to causes until the AAIB has done its job and a report is published; as the saying goes, "It will all come out in the wash".
I suggest, out of respect for the victims, that perhaps others also do the same.
Smithy
I cannot recall there being an AEF accident until now, and the Tutor itself has an excellent safety record. I will thus refrain from theorising as to causes until the AAIB has done its job and a report is published; as the saying goes, "It will all come out in the wash".
I suggest, out of respect for the victims, that perhaps others also do the same.
Smithy
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I'm normally loathe to put forward theories, but in an effort to dispel the thinly veiled allegations of unauthorised formation flying, I'll expand slightly on JugglingSpence's suggestion, just as one of many possibilities.
Light aircraft operating from Saints generally follow prescribed departure and recovery routes through the Cardiff Zone. Once time is allowed for this there is relatively little left for the 'meat' of the trip, so the aircraft would likely have been operating in relative proximity to each other, but still safely - deconfliction in such circumstances is hardly complicated. They would also retain a service from Cardiff ATC, who historically at least were very good at warnings of "company traffic", even when only giving a FIS. However, once their time was up, both aircraft would have likely been descending to 1000ft or so on the Cardiff QNH, and both aiming for roughly the same point geographically. There is obviously a potential conflict there.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the above theory, there are many many other possible explanations, so can we please leave it to those whose job it is to determine the cause to do so!
Pace - I'd hope you'd know from your wealth of flying knowledge and personal experience of aviation fatalities that saying that recently deceased aircrew "messed up" is offensive. Yes, it may have potentially been down to a human failing (we all know how ineffective the human eye is at spotting conflicting aircraft on a constant bearing for starters), but that is a very different beast to "messing up". Just look at the fallout from the Chinook Mull of Kintyre crash for evidence of how allegations of negligence can further the hurt of already grieving family members.
Light aircraft operating from Saints generally follow prescribed departure and recovery routes through the Cardiff Zone. Once time is allowed for this there is relatively little left for the 'meat' of the trip, so the aircraft would likely have been operating in relative proximity to each other, but still safely - deconfliction in such circumstances is hardly complicated. They would also retain a service from Cardiff ATC, who historically at least were very good at warnings of "company traffic", even when only giving a FIS. However, once their time was up, both aircraft would have likely been descending to 1000ft or so on the Cardiff QNH, and both aiming for roughly the same point geographically. There is obviously a potential conflict there.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the above theory, there are many many other possible explanations, so can we please leave it to those whose job it is to determine the cause to do so!
Pace - I'd hope you'd know from your wealth of flying knowledge and personal experience of aviation fatalities that saying that recently deceased aircrew "messed up" is offensive. Yes, it may have potentially been down to a human failing (we all know how ineffective the human eye is at spotting conflicting aircraft on a constant bearing for starters), but that is a very different beast to "messing up". Just look at the fallout from the Chinook Mull of Kintyre crash for evidence of how allegations of negligence can further the hurt of already grieving family members.
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Inquest verdict
BBC News - Warning system 'may have prevented' Bridgend air crash
WalesOnline
Make allowance for the usual journalistic habits/distortion. I am reliably informed that the Coroner acknowledged that similar accidents may occur even if aircraft have collision warning systems. He made no criticism whatsoever of either the RAF or the pilots concerned and pointed out that there were about 35,000 AEF flights amounting to approx 20,000 flying hours last year alone.
Contrary to the groundless speculation by some here at the time of the accident, the two aircraft were on converging paths - they were not flying close together before the collision.
As a result of the accident, the RAF decided to equip its Grobs with collision warning systems. No bad thing, but arguably OTT after a fluke accident. Very few civvy light aircraft have got it.
BBC News - Warning system 'may have prevented' Bridgend air crash
WalesOnline
Make allowance for the usual journalistic habits/distortion. I am reliably informed that the Coroner acknowledged that similar accidents may occur even if aircraft have collision warning systems. He made no criticism whatsoever of either the RAF or the pilots concerned and pointed out that there were about 35,000 AEF flights amounting to approx 20,000 flying hours last year alone.
Contrary to the groundless speculation by some here at the time of the accident, the two aircraft were on converging paths - they were not flying close together before the collision.
As a result of the accident, the RAF decided to equip its Grobs with collision warning systems. No bad thing, but arguably OTT after a fluke accident. Very few civvy light aircraft have got it.
