BBC reporting possible 'mid air collision'
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Chris
I remember when my son flew solo at the age of 16. He still seemed like about 10 to me.
When you have young kids something like this hits home at how awful it must be to the parents of those two girls.
Thankfully my son went through that and is flying as an FO with Easyjet on 737s at 22 but to any parents whos kids want to fly? what can I say ? a nightmare which must be in the back of all of our minds.
Pace
I remember when my son flew solo at the age of 16. He still seemed like about 10 to me.
When you have young kids something like this hits home at how awful it must be to the parents of those two girls.
Thankfully my son went through that and is flying as an FO with Easyjet on 737s at 22 but to any parents whos kids want to fly? what can I say ? a nightmare which must be in the back of all of our minds.
Pace
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Side question
I thought that only the military would carry out the investigation, but I read that the AAIB will participate too (which can only be a good thing, in my opinion). Anybody knows if that is standard procedure for any RAF aircraft involved in an accident, be it a Tutor or a fully armed Typhoon? Thanks.
Deeday
Deeday
Red On, Green On
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The BBCi news page was yesterday showing an eyewitness interview in which she described seeing one aircraft go overhead, and then saw the second aircraft - she expected them to pass each other with some vertical separation, but she then saw the collision. That testimony suggest to me that they were on different headings.
Gentleman Aviator
RAF Boards of Inquiry often call upon the matchless expertise and experience of the AAIB, whatever the type is. The COMR status of the aircraft is not necessarily a factor.
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As a former Air Cadet myself, I feel very sad at this loss. Accidents where there are fatalities are always sad, but especially so when young people are involved. Rest In Peace 
Sad to see the usual "Pprune Pprats" out in force on this thread, moaning about which forum the post should be in, various expert opinions etc. Please folks, let's get some perspective, two teenage girls have lost their lives. Perhaps that';s what's important, rather than worrying about whether this thread should be in Rumours & News rather than Private Flying.
A sad Smithy.
Sad to see the usual "Pprune Pprats" out in force on this thread, moaning about which forum the post should be in, various expert opinions etc. Please folks, let's get some perspective, two teenage girls have lost their lives. Perhaps that';s what's important, rather than worrying about whether this thread should be in Rumours & News rather than Private Flying.
A sad Smithy.
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Given that, according to the news today, the two girls were related, it may not be suprising if some kind of formation flight (and I don't mean a formal close formation of any sort) was being done.
I've done a few formation flights for photo purposes and while we never got close - not anywhere remotely as close as the aviation magazine front cover pics are done at - it was obvious that serious precautions are necessary prior to acquiring visual contact, and again if contact is lost.
Recently I did a photo formation with a turboprop. It was set up that I got up there first and orbited a certain waypoint (an airway intersection; this was above a solid overcast) at 6700ft, and the other one was doing the same later at 6200ft but a few miles away. Despite having 3 in one plane and about 5 in the other, we found it extremely hard to spot each other even when we knew exactly where to look, and the background was uncluttered. Eventually we sorted it out, with me flying 10nm straight tracks on autopilot and him coming up within about 100m, and I got some great pics, but it's clear one cannot be casual about this sort of thing, where closing speeds are easily 300kt+.
It would have been so easy to try to look for each other at a similar altitude, and end up colliding. "See and avoid" is pretty damn useless when you really need it. It is great for spotting traffic which is nowhere near a collision course and that gives all the traditionalists a warm feeling inside.
Not suggesting this happened here but the two passengers being related would tend to suggest the possibility of some intentional proximity so they get pictures of each other - that would be pretty normal IMHO.
I've done a few formation flights for photo purposes and while we never got close - not anywhere remotely as close as the aviation magazine front cover pics are done at - it was obvious that serious precautions are necessary prior to acquiring visual contact, and again if contact is lost.
Recently I did a photo formation with a turboprop. It was set up that I got up there first and orbited a certain waypoint (an airway intersection; this was above a solid overcast) at 6700ft, and the other one was doing the same later at 6200ft but a few miles away. Despite having 3 in one plane and about 5 in the other, we found it extremely hard to spot each other even when we knew exactly where to look, and the background was uncluttered. Eventually we sorted it out, with me flying 10nm straight tracks on autopilot and him coming up within about 100m, and I got some great pics, but it's clear one cannot be casual about this sort of thing, where closing speeds are easily 300kt+.
It would have been so easy to try to look for each other at a similar altitude, and end up colliding. "See and avoid" is pretty damn useless when you really need it. It is great for spotting traffic which is nowhere near a collision course and that gives all the traditionalists a warm feeling inside.
Not suggesting this happened here but the two passengers being related would tend to suggest the possibility of some intentional proximity so they get pictures of each other - that would be pretty normal IMHO.
Avoid imitations
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that would be pretty normal IMHO.
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I have 5 kids; my eldest is now 17 and I'm terrified at the thought of her getting in a car with any of her new driver friends! She's also learning, but funnily that doesn't frighten me as much? However, I remember when I was that age and all the near misses I had as a typical "super driver" teenage boy ... 
So what do you do? You can't wrap them in cotton wool forever, and as much as it frightens me I realise there are many risks they have to face alone as part of growing up. Personally, I'd feel much happier with the thought of them flying with a good instructor through the ATC than being a passenger with another teenager in a car. It's terrible when accidents like this happen, but we need to put them into perspective. To almost dismiss kids killed in cars as just normal accidents and those killed in aircraft as being any more tragic would be stupid. Unfortunately, most of the press is sensationalist and well, STUPID!
SS
SS
So what do you do? You can't wrap them in cotton wool forever, and as much as it frightens me I realise there are many risks they have to face alone as part of growing up. Personally, I'd feel much happier with the thought of them flying with a good instructor through the ATC than being a passenger with another teenager in a car. It's terrible when accidents like this happen, but we need to put them into perspective. To almost dismiss kids killed in cars as just normal accidents and those killed in aircraft as being any more tragic would be stupid. Unfortunately, most of the press is sensationalist and well, STUPID!
SS
SS
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I don’t have figures to hand, but I understand that air cadet flying has an extremely low accident rate. Not zero, but very low, in comparison to other GA or glider flights.
Does anyone have figures – are they published anywhere, in a way that allows comparison with GA flying?
Chris N.
Does anyone have figures – are they published anywhere, in a way that allows comparison with GA flying?
Chris N.
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Sadly it looks as if it was formation flying so that the girls could wave to eachother and may have been the girls at the controls, todays report.
Again a media report but maybe giving a clearer picture
Were teenage cousins at the controls of RAF planes that collided? | Mail Online
Pace
Again a media report but maybe giving a clearer picture
Were teenage cousins at the controls of RAF planes that collided? | Mail Online
Pace
The media report linked by Pace adds nothing. These were air experience flights and it would not be unusual for the cadets to be given control. All cadets from the same squadron "know" each other so the fact that they were cousins would not in my view have made formation flight any more likely.
In any event, the aircraft were TXP equipped so I suspect their relative tracks and altitudes will be readily available to the investigators from the Cardiff Radar tapes.
As a CI for a fellow ATC squadron in the Welsh Wing, and having met both instructors involved in earlier air experience flights I've taken cadets to, this accident is very close to home for me.
In any event, the aircraft were TXP equipped so I suspect their relative tracks and altitudes will be readily available to the investigators from the Cardiff Radar tapes.
As a CI for a fellow ATC squadron in the Welsh Wing, and having met both instructors involved in earlier air experience flights I've taken cadets to, this accident is very close to home for me.
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Mariner9
I am sorry this one is close to you as I also know how awful it is when you loose friends or collegues in aircraft accidents.
This report "seems" to be slightly more informed than the usual media churn outs but I stress the word "seems".
Whatever happened it is a tragic accident to two experienced pilots and with the youngsters also involved a very sad event for all of us.
Pace
I am sorry this one is close to you as I also know how awful it is when you loose friends or collegues in aircraft accidents.
This report "seems" to be slightly more informed than the usual media churn outs but I stress the word "seems".
Whatever happened it is a tragic accident to two experienced pilots and with the youngsters also involved a very sad event for all of us.
Pace
Gentleman Aviator
"Seems" Pace? How on earth can anyone know what was going on in the aircraft.
And as for the "18 year own golf club greens keeper" saying they were showing off, I despair. I won't use my 5000+ military flying hours to criticise his greens keeping, it would be better he didn't use his mowing expertise to criticise dead pilots.
Given the girls ages, it is highly likely it was their first flight, there is no way that responsible pilots - and that certainly covers both these pilots - would give them control in the known proximety of another aircraft, although it would be perfectly normal to have a gentle "clutch" when S & L. We're not even talking E of C 1 here, but air experience.
And Andrew Brooks? Who he?
And as for the "18 year own golf club greens keeper" saying they were showing off, I despair. I won't use my 5000+ military flying hours to criticise his greens keeping, it would be better he didn't use his mowing expertise to criticise dead pilots.
Given the girls ages, it is highly likely it was their first flight, there is no way that responsible pilots - and that certainly covers both these pilots - would give them control in the known proximety of another aircraft, although it would be perfectly normal to have a gentle "clutch" when S & L. We're not even talking E of C 1 here, but air experience.
And Andrew Brooks? Who he?
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Formation flying must be a 'possibility' - as an air cadet we did this in Chipmunks years ago, partly for the cadets' benefit and once for the local newspaper - one of the CIs was a photographer for the local rag.
Can't believe, after the comments of SITW that another death has occurred - this time a helicopter student pilot.
S**T!
AJ
Can't believe, after the comments of SITW that another death has occurred - this time a helicopter student pilot.
S**T!
AJ
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Quite amusing reading from yet another aviation-related Daily Tory article riddled as always with inaccuracies, blatant lies, rediculous assumptions/theories and (probably made-up) testimonies from nobodies.
You make good points, teeteringhead. I agree with all of what you say.
You make good points, teeteringhead. I agree with all of what you say.