Flying in snow
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From: In the boot of my car!
Do not believe the reason the airports closed. The real reason was the UK pilots believed the stuff may stick to their aircraft turning their planes into giant snowballs streaking through the skies never to be seen again. The runways were set aside exclusively for Father Christmas to practice his touch and goes ready for next Christmas.
Shytorque
That was a humouros reply to an equally humouros question about why does the UK grind to a halt with a liitle bit of snow made by Pilot Dar.
You state that we had the worst icing conditions we have had in the uk for many years? were there warning in the met of severe icing on those days?
Pouring scorn? No but maybe making a point that Snow does not equal icing conditions.
You may have had years of experience flying in all weather but so have I.
The worst icing experiences I have had have never involved Snow and in Snow I have never experienced icing.
I would not encourage anyone to takeoff in a light aircraft without experience and full deice/anti ice if visible moisture and icing temperatures are present close to the ground whether in rain, sleet, or snow and I resent your implication.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th February 2009 at 20:52.
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From: LONDON
If you recall, this thread started with LateFinals "looking out of the window" at the snow fall earlier this week and speculating about whether it would be OK to fly in those conditions. The answer, according to Flying magazine in the US, is a resounding 'yes' (assuming you're OK with panel flying and it's not a howling storm).
Reading the entire thread again I think that the experience of those from Canada (eg PilotDAR) and similar places that live with the stuff half the year is that they are fine about flying in it . . . . which was the original question. Obviously if there is a propensity for icing (wet slushy stuff) then that is a different question that did not represent the prevailing conditions across GB at the start of the week.
Therefore my vote is that Pace has won the argument hands down (
) and I can't wait to get up there and mix it with the next snow flurry. If I don't make it back then groveling apologies to Parsnip, et al, as it clearly was safer just to have stayed tucked up in bed !
Drambuster
Reading the entire thread again I think that the experience of those from Canada (eg PilotDAR) and similar places that live with the stuff half the year is that they are fine about flying in it . . . . which was the original question. Obviously if there is a propensity for icing (wet slushy stuff) then that is a different question that did not represent the prevailing conditions across GB at the start of the week.
Therefore my vote is that Pace has won the argument hands down (
) and I can't wait to get up there and mix it with the next snow flurry. If I don't make it back then groveling apologies to Parsnip, et al, as it clearly was safer just to have stayed tucked up in bed !Drambuster
off to build a few snowmen and contemplate the structure of the snowflake, great stuff to ski on Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Pace, by your very own argument that's impossible because pure snow won't stick to anything.
Avoid imitations
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Shytorque
That was a humouros reply to an equally humouros question
That was a humouros reply to an equally humouros question
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From: Niort
With respect, the Canadian experience is not terribly relevant to conditions in the UK.
I would firmly support Pace's snow does not stick to anything line if I were flying out of somewhere with -20 deg C. At those temperatures snow is squeaky and acts just as Pace's text book description.
However looking out the window here is another matter. This morning when being warned of an exceptionally cold night and slippery roads it was -2.5 deg C air temp. The water on the roads was liquid (no salt applied up here!)
These are the conditions where you see snow and yes Pace it builds up on airframes.
I would firmly support Pace's snow does not stick to anything line if I were flying out of somewhere with -20 deg C. At those temperatures snow is squeaky and acts just as Pace's text book description.
However looking out the window here is another matter. This morning when being warned of an exceptionally cold night and slippery roads it was -2.5 deg C air temp. The water on the roads was liquid (no salt applied up here!)
These are the conditions where you see snow and yes Pace it builds up on airframes.
Thread Starter
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From: London
Having posed the original question about flying in snow and now read and digested the range of responses I feel that for the majority of pilots and the GA planes they fly, the white stuff is best avoided at all costs.
LF
LF
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From: In the boot of my car!
Gasax
The reason I have hammered away about this is not as some seem to get the impression that I want to score points but so we can all hammer out a true understanding about snow.
I have made mistakes in other threads and am happy to be corrected and would be equally happy to be corrected in this one. The important thing is that a true picture is arrived at through any of these threads.
Some posters refer to sticking as if the snow sticks like glue. No dry ice will stick to a frozen surface. If you took a frozen Ice cube from your fridge and tried to attach it to a frozen suface it would not stay. Warm part of that icecube so a portion on the suface becomes wet and recontact that against a frozen surface and it will refreeze attaching itself and the cube to the surface.
The difference with snow is that to be snow the flake has to have a structure of tiny very delicate ice crystals. The nature of snow is that there is no moisture content. The moisture has evaporated off in its development.
Snow falls as individual flakes not en masse and is very easy in loosing its structure if warmed.
Sleet is a very different animal. Snow can develop into sleet but is no longer snow. Sleet can have a centre of ice surrounded by liquid. Sleet is an icing danger as for any icing there HAS to be visible moisture and the correct temperatures for icing to form on the airframe.
My worst icing experiences and I have had a few have involved rain, cb activity etc. On one occasion was flying a business jet from Prague to Istanbul. We took off in rain in solid cloud and didnt top the cloud until FL200.
The ice build up was fast until we got into colder air in the climb. When we could see tiny ice crystals replacing the rain the icing stopped.
Snow has a large visual impact of suggesting COLD AND ICE but it is not the cold and ice which is your threat it is the far less visually threatening water or moisture which is if the temperatures are freezing or below.
So it is no worse flying in snow when the ground is pure white than it is taking off when the fields are green in rain.
Both require caution but snow is not your threat and dont confuse sleet with snow they are not the same.
Pace
The reason I have hammered away about this is not as some seem to get the impression that I want to score points but so we can all hammer out a true understanding about snow.
I have made mistakes in other threads and am happy to be corrected and would be equally happy to be corrected in this one. The important thing is that a true picture is arrived at through any of these threads.
Some posters refer to sticking as if the snow sticks like glue. No dry ice will stick to a frozen surface. If you took a frozen Ice cube from your fridge and tried to attach it to a frozen suface it would not stay. Warm part of that icecube so a portion on the suface becomes wet and recontact that against a frozen surface and it will refreeze attaching itself and the cube to the surface.
The difference with snow is that to be snow the flake has to have a structure of tiny very delicate ice crystals. The nature of snow is that there is no moisture content. The moisture has evaporated off in its development.
Snow falls as individual flakes not en masse and is very easy in loosing its structure if warmed.
Sleet is a very different animal. Snow can develop into sleet but is no longer snow. Sleet can have a centre of ice surrounded by liquid. Sleet is an icing danger as for any icing there HAS to be visible moisture and the correct temperatures for icing to form on the airframe.
My worst icing experiences and I have had a few have involved rain, cb activity etc. On one occasion was flying a business jet from Prague to Istanbul. We took off in rain in solid cloud and didnt top the cloud until FL200.
The ice build up was fast until we got into colder air in the climb. When we could see tiny ice crystals replacing the rain the icing stopped.
Snow has a large visual impact of suggesting COLD AND ICE but it is not the cold and ice which is your threat it is the far less visually threatening water or moisture which is if the temperatures are freezing or below.
So it is no worse flying in snow when the ground is pure white than it is taking off when the fields are green in rain.
Both require caution but snow is not your threat and dont confuse sleet with snow they are not the same.
Pace
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From: Ontario, Canada
When we could see tiny ice crystals replacing the rain the icing stopped.
We do also get the odd storm of wet slush, and worse falling from the sky here, and anyone would be unwise to attempt to fly most aircraft types in that, but we distinguish it from snow by calling it all sorts of other names, which imply liquid water is falling.
Twice while flying in snow, it has suddenly turned to freezing rain (air temperature locally rose quite quickly), and you could see it happening. The windshield ices over right away, and the engine will suddenly stop due to air filter icing over. Alternate air, and an immediate 180 are the only wise solution - but I was not flying in "snow" any more! Lesson learned, if you're flying in snow, into warmer air while still in percipitation, watch out!
Any pilot who chooses to not fly in precipitation is to be commended for using judgement appropriate to his or her experience or comfort level. That does not mean that such flying cannot be safely accomplished by others.
We have to be careful not to use the forum as a means of instructing or directing pilots to fly in a way which would be unsafe for that individual, but we also are being fair if we cautiously say "yes, it is safely possible, if you are properly trained, experienced or mentored.
Flying in snow can be safely accomplished, and with a few exceptions (like hovering some helicopters) for extended periods of time. While doing it, you may be closer to operating in unsafe conditions, should the temperature change. Not everyone should try it, just as not everyone should attempt to land in a crosswind.
Pilot DAR
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From: UK
I think this thread reveals what is really great about the Private Flying forum and also illustrates one of its drawbacks. Of all the forums, I suspect this one has the most diverse population of users. From un powered flight through micro lights, spam cans to private and corporate jets and even the occasional heavy metal pilot, not to mention wayward rotorheads like me.
In this thread we have the theory of "snow" and how it doesn't stick to PACE machinery whereas it does to Shy Torques and my own. I agree that snow in its purest form won't stick to a cold airframe, but something that looks suspiciously like snow will stick to my airframe. Quite how I am not sure, but flying through a "snow" shower can bring it about. (PACE - note the quote marks; there's snow and "snow")
In short a question like this will yield an outpouring of wisdom freely given by a bunch of anonymous experts - experts in their own corner of aviation. It is all to easy to forget that we either don't know what corner of aviation the original poster is coming from or that we don't apply our knowledge to the appropriate corner (and there are many on this forum). Perhaps we should all make it a little clearer what experience our advice is based on and what corner of the forum we are coming from.
What I would say on the original subject is if you go flying in snowy weather wear some gloves and make sure your destination/alternates/home base won't close behind you.
In this thread we have the theory of "snow" and how it doesn't stick to PACE machinery whereas it does to Shy Torques and my own. I agree that snow in its purest form won't stick to a cold airframe, but something that looks suspiciously like snow will stick to my airframe. Quite how I am not sure, but flying through a "snow" shower can bring it about. (PACE - note the quote marks; there's snow and "snow")
In short a question like this will yield an outpouring of wisdom freely given by a bunch of anonymous experts - experts in their own corner of aviation. It is all to easy to forget that we either don't know what corner of aviation the original poster is coming from or that we don't apply our knowledge to the appropriate corner (and there are many on this forum). Perhaps we should all make it a little clearer what experience our advice is based on and what corner of the forum we are coming from.
What I would say on the original subject is if you go flying in snowy weather wear some gloves and make sure your destination/alternates/home base won't close behind you.
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Droopystop
Firstly as with Pilot Dar who is an experienced Pilot i would not recommend anyone flying out of their or their aircrafts ability anymore than as he said I would not recommend anyone flying a crosswind landing beyond their abilities.
As for my own experience i hold an ATP, current Citation rating and have about 4000 hrs. 2000 plus are in multi engines pistons. I fly as a Citation Captain and have also flown a number of ferries around the world.
I used the term Snow in its true form. Infact there is not such a thing its either Snow or not Snow. Snow is a specific structure of very fine Ice particles. One of the attributes of Snow is that there is no moisture content. That was evaporated in its formation.
Any airframe icing requires visible moisture and temperatures conductive to icing ie at or below freezing.
So Snow and airframe icing do not go. Sleet which is what I feel most are confusing themselves with is not snow. Sleet is mixed ice and water which is a threat to icing.
I have gone through all my posts in this thread. I am very happy for anyone to pick any of them to pieces but based on fact and not statements like "you are wrong" without any scientific reasoning why?
I too would love to know the experience and qualifications of some here who make their statements. I am happy for my arguements to be pulled to pieces on an informed and scientific basis and would be the first to say "sorry I was wrong".
I personally have no worries flying in snow. Sleet yes! or any situation where visible moisture and freezing conditions exist.
Whether there are cold temperatures conducive to icing but with green fields and rain or white fields and snow makes no difference. It is the visible moisture to ice up my airframe in either case which bothers me and NOT snow.
Pace
Firstly as with Pilot Dar who is an experienced Pilot i would not recommend anyone flying out of their or their aircrafts ability anymore than as he said I would not recommend anyone flying a crosswind landing beyond their abilities.
As for my own experience i hold an ATP, current Citation rating and have about 4000 hrs. 2000 plus are in multi engines pistons. I fly as a Citation Captain and have also flown a number of ferries around the world.
I used the term Snow in its true form. Infact there is not such a thing its either Snow or not Snow. Snow is a specific structure of very fine Ice particles. One of the attributes of Snow is that there is no moisture content. That was evaporated in its formation.
Any airframe icing requires visible moisture and temperatures conductive to icing ie at or below freezing.
So Snow and airframe icing do not go. Sleet which is what I feel most are confusing themselves with is not snow. Sleet is mixed ice and water which is a threat to icing.
I have gone through all my posts in this thread. I am very happy for anyone to pick any of them to pieces but based on fact and not statements like "you are wrong" without any scientific reasoning why?
I too would love to know the experience and qualifications of some here who make their statements. I am happy for my arguements to be pulled to pieces on an informed and scientific basis and would be the first to say "sorry I was wrong".
I personally have no worries flying in snow. Sleet yes! or any situation where visible moisture and freezing conditions exist.
Whether there are cold temperatures conducive to icing but with green fields and rain or white fields and snow makes no difference. It is the visible moisture to ice up my airframe in either case which bothers me and NOT snow.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th February 2009 at 21:13.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Bertie Thruster asked about aircraft operating at low speed; I know exactly why he asked. Aircraft limitations are type specific and the same in-flight conditions can affect different aircraft in different ways. As I previously posted, one aircraft I previously flew and instructed on (over 2500 hours on that type) had a limitation of 20 minutes in snow conditions because snow could build up on the airframe between the engine intakes, slide sideways and flame out an engine. The aircraft was later fitted with external mirrors so the pilot could check for a snow build-up.
Here's an extract of an accident report involving snow build up on another aircraft type, the Hughes 369D, it occurred in Yukon, Canada. Note the additional information given by the manufacturer about operation in snow, as well as advice on icing conditions. I have emboldened some relevant parts for the hard of hearing.
Here's an extract of an accident report involving snow build up on another aircraft type, the Hughes 369D, it occurred in Yukon, Canada. Note the additional information given by the manufacturer about operation in snow, as well as advice on icing conditions. I have emboldened some relevant parts for the hard of hearing.
The helicopter manufacturer's Flight Manual, "Normal Procedures" (Section IV), 4-6 "Actions Before Take-off," states the following requirement: "Use engine anti-icing when OAT is below 5 degrees Celsius (41 degrees Fahrenheit) and visible moisture is present." The engine anti-ice system prevents ice buildup on the engine inlet support struts which could break off and damage the compressor blades.
The Flight Manual, Limitations, (Section II), Chapter 2.3, Flight Restrictions, states the following:
Flight operation is permitted in falling or blowing snow only if the Automatic Engine Reignition Kit and Engine Failure Warning System are installed and operable. Whenever the helicopter has been parked outside or has been in flight during falling snow, determine that the engine inlet area and all helicopter exterior surfaces are completely free of accumulated ice and snow. In addition, open the plenum chamber door and visually determine that the inlet screen or particle separator (if installed) have not become clogged with ice and snow. This inspection and removal of ice and snow shall be accomplished prior to the next flight.
Discussions with other operators of McDonnell-Douglas 369D helicopters indicate that they had also experienced numerous losses of engine power (flame-outs) in falling snow, and had installed optional engine air deflector kits, which eliminated the problem. The kit consists of a plate that covers the normal air intake on the "doghouse" and prevents snow from directly entering the particle separator. Installation of this kit is currently not mandatory.
On 30 September 1982, the Allison Engine Company issued a Commercial Service Letter warning of engine flame-outs due to snow or ice ingestion on the Allison 250 series engines. The letter states:
Owners, operators and pilots are warned that helicopters using this engine in falling or blowing snow, or icing conditions, require special equipment. Snow or ice can build up on aircraft parts, inlet ducts or plenum chambers and break loose in "slugs". Slugs of snow or ice entering the compressor of these engines can cause flame-out. Helicopter manufacturers use different approaches to prevent slugs of snow or ice from being ingested by the engine. Some of these devices include special particle separators, reverse inlet scoops, and various types of inlet screens. Additionally, some helicopters utilize auto-reignition kits to relight the engine in the event that a flame-out occurs. It is the responsibility of the owner, operator and pilot to determine that the helicopter is properly equipped and the devices are in proper working order for operation in conditions where snow and ice can build up on the aircraft. It is also very important to inspect the engine inlet area on the pre-flight check when the aircraft has been exposed to an ice, snow, or sleet storm. Accumulations of ice and/or snow can collect in remote areas of the engine inlet air flow path. Removal of these accumulations is necessary, especially downstream of the protective devices, to prevent a possible flame-out caused by the break-off of these accumulations during flight
Top of Page Analysis
The information gathered indicates that the pilot experienced a flame-out and an automatic relight while climbing after lift-off. This would have caused a loss of main rotor rpm, and would have resulted in the cyclic control response problem reported by the pilot. Although the engine compressor contamination observed could result in decreased power output, it would not be expected to cause a flame-out. The most likely cause of engine flame-out in this occurrence would be the sudden dislodging of an accumulation of snow in the air intake plenum, which is consistent with the experiences of other operators of this model helicopter. The successful elimination of snow-induced flame-outs on other similar helicopters following installation of an air deflector kit, indicates that the installation of such a kit on this aircraft probably would have prevented the occurrence.
The Flight Manual, Limitations, (Section II), Chapter 2.3, Flight Restrictions, states the following:
Flight operation is permitted in falling or blowing snow only if the Automatic Engine Reignition Kit and Engine Failure Warning System are installed and operable. Whenever the helicopter has been parked outside or has been in flight during falling snow, determine that the engine inlet area and all helicopter exterior surfaces are completely free of accumulated ice and snow. In addition, open the plenum chamber door and visually determine that the inlet screen or particle separator (if installed) have not become clogged with ice and snow. This inspection and removal of ice and snow shall be accomplished prior to the next flight.
Discussions with other operators of McDonnell-Douglas 369D helicopters indicate that they had also experienced numerous losses of engine power (flame-outs) in falling snow, and had installed optional engine air deflector kits, which eliminated the problem. The kit consists of a plate that covers the normal air intake on the "doghouse" and prevents snow from directly entering the particle separator. Installation of this kit is currently not mandatory.
On 30 September 1982, the Allison Engine Company issued a Commercial Service Letter warning of engine flame-outs due to snow or ice ingestion on the Allison 250 series engines. The letter states:
Owners, operators and pilots are warned that helicopters using this engine in falling or blowing snow, or icing conditions, require special equipment. Snow or ice can build up on aircraft parts, inlet ducts or plenum chambers and break loose in "slugs". Slugs of snow or ice entering the compressor of these engines can cause flame-out. Helicopter manufacturers use different approaches to prevent slugs of snow or ice from being ingested by the engine. Some of these devices include special particle separators, reverse inlet scoops, and various types of inlet screens. Additionally, some helicopters utilize auto-reignition kits to relight the engine in the event that a flame-out occurs. It is the responsibility of the owner, operator and pilot to determine that the helicopter is properly equipped and the devices are in proper working order for operation in conditions where snow and ice can build up on the aircraft. It is also very important to inspect the engine inlet area on the pre-flight check when the aircraft has been exposed to an ice, snow, or sleet storm. Accumulations of ice and/or snow can collect in remote areas of the engine inlet air flow path. Removal of these accumulations is necessary, especially downstream of the protective devices, to prevent a possible flame-out caused by the break-off of these accumulations during flight
Top of Page Analysis
The information gathered indicates that the pilot experienced a flame-out and an automatic relight while climbing after lift-off. This would have caused a loss of main rotor rpm, and would have resulted in the cyclic control response problem reported by the pilot. Although the engine compressor contamination observed could result in decreased power output, it would not be expected to cause a flame-out. The most likely cause of engine flame-out in this occurrence would be the sudden dislodging of an accumulation of snow in the air intake plenum, which is consistent with the experiences of other operators of this model helicopter. The successful elimination of snow-induced flame-outs on other similar helicopters following installation of an air deflector kit, indicates that the installation of such a kit on this aircraft probably would have prevented the occurrence.
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From: In the boot of my car!
ShyTorque
Sorry I am not a helicopter pilot and thought we were taling about light GA aircraft fixed wing not helicopters?
Maybe you should post this in the helicopter section as I dont see the relevance to fixed wing? Explain that relevance if you can?
Pace
Sorry I am not a helicopter pilot and thought we were taling about light GA aircraft fixed wing not helicopters?
Maybe you should post this in the helicopter section as I dont see the relevance to fixed wing? Explain that relevance if you can?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th February 2009 at 21:47.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Pace, The original poster did not say he flew fixed wing.
You would prefer me to move this because it conflicts with your beliefs and statements about aircraft operations in snow? No thanks, I'll leave it here. It's as relevent to light fixed wing ops as your own quotes from your experience in a Citation.
Snow doesn't know if the airframe it collects on belongs to a helicopter or a light aircraft.
You would prefer me to move this because it conflicts with your beliefs and statements about aircraft operations in snow? No thanks, I'll leave it here. It's as relevent to light fixed wing ops as your own quotes from your experience in a Citation.
Snow doesn't know if the airframe it collects on belongs to a helicopter or a light aircraft.
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From: In the boot of my car!
Shytorque
There is a massive difference as there is to my car parked overnight in heavy snowfalls or stopping at a junctions in heavy snow or even a fixed wing left out in snow or taxying at 5 kts in snow.
Maybe 3 feet of snow on your house might give a clue!! think about it.
Pace
There is a massive difference as there is to my car parked overnight in heavy snowfalls or stopping at a junctions in heavy snow or even a fixed wing left out in snow or taxying at 5 kts in snow.
Maybe 3 feet of snow on your house might give a clue!! think about it.
Pace
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Pace, Just wondering if there is anything anyone could say that might make you think that your opinions are just that, opinion and not concrete fact? If there is, what qualifications and experience should that person have? And if not, why not just bow out gracefully knowing that you are infallable? 
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Pace, you are missing the point of that accident report and the manufacturer's advice therein and also ignoring what others have written. It's not a problem confined to very low speed ops. The helicopter type I flew with the problem of snow build up on the intakes cruised at 140 kts, not 5 mph. The 20 minute limitation in falling snow covered the full flight envelope.
Irrespective of aircraft type, fixed wing or rotary, an area acting as an airflow stagnation point can collect snow in flight. Your Citation is obviously less likely to collect snow than a light fixed wing or a helicopter because of its design - it was deliberately designed to have few stagnation points. An important stagnation point on a light fixed wing is the leading edge of the relatively blunt wing. Another is the face of the engine air intake filter box fitted to some light aircraft. Whether or not the accumulated snow still looks like it belongs on a Christmas card scene or a snowball stuck to a wall is, for practical and flight safety purposes, unimportant.
I see little point in continuing the debate further. We have different views borne out of our different training and personal experiences. (Seeing as you asked, apart from previous gliding and light aircraft PPL training my first 18 flying years of productive flying were military; the latter 15 years mainly civilian, with a bit of paramilitary stuff in between. I hold fixed wing and rotary pilot instructor qualifications).
One thing that (hopefully) everyone agrees on is that winter operations do need some extra thought. Hopefully, inexperienced pilots unsure about this subject will read all of the views here, do their own research, especially by checking out their aircraft manufacturer's advice on winter ops and come to the correct conclusion.
I'm out, I promised someone.
Irrespective of aircraft type, fixed wing or rotary, an area acting as an airflow stagnation point can collect snow in flight. Your Citation is obviously less likely to collect snow than a light fixed wing or a helicopter because of its design - it was deliberately designed to have few stagnation points. An important stagnation point on a light fixed wing is the leading edge of the relatively blunt wing. Another is the face of the engine air intake filter box fitted to some light aircraft. Whether or not the accumulated snow still looks like it belongs on a Christmas card scene or a snowball stuck to a wall is, for practical and flight safety purposes, unimportant.
I see little point in continuing the debate further. We have different views borne out of our different training and personal experiences. (Seeing as you asked, apart from previous gliding and light aircraft PPL training my first 18 flying years of productive flying were military; the latter 15 years mainly civilian, with a bit of paramilitary stuff in between. I hold fixed wing and rotary pilot instructor qualifications).
One thing that (hopefully) everyone agrees on is that winter operations do need some extra thought. Hopefully, inexperienced pilots unsure about this subject will read all of the views here, do their own research, especially by checking out their aircraft manufacturer's advice on winter ops and come to the correct conclusion.
I'm out, I promised someone.
Fleet Manager
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From: Ontario, Canada
Of course, if an aircraft type limits operation in snow, or requires specific equipment or configuration for flight in snow, or cold in general, such limitations or requirements must be followed.
Every airplane I have flown makes a statement with respect to flight into icing conditions. The only aircraft I have ever flown which make a reference to operations in snow are helicopters (MD500 & B206), and to my understanding, the concern seems to be flameout of turbine engines, as opposed to accumulation on the airframe/lifting surfaces affecting flying qualities. There are Flight Manual statements about the MD500 operations in snow, and there are similar statements in the B206 Flight Manual. There are no such statements in the SW300 Flight Manual with reference to snow that I can find (None in Limitations section for sure). The SW300 has many similarities to the MD500 from a aerodynamics and lifting surfaces point of view. I presume that this fact highlights the difference in snow sensitivity, as the SW300 has a piston engine.
Other than the preceding, none of the three mentioned helicopter flight manuals, or any airplane Flight Manual I have ever read refers limitations or warnings for flight in falling snow.
So, we have definite reference to flight in icing conditions, but no reference to operations in snow. That places a huge responsibility upon the pilot to soley determine whether the proposed operation will be in ice, or snow.
If the pilot makes the determination that the operation will be in snow, (helicopter flameout considerations acknowledged), that pilot is free to fly without limitation imposed by the aircraft.
If, on the other hand, the pilot determines that the proposed operation would be in icing conditions, that pilot would be bound by icing limitations, which in the case of many smaller aircraft would mean no flight.
We have agreed here that snow is a type of ice, so a pilot would be free to make the interpretation that flight in snow is flight in ice, and not go. Incidentally, the Canadian regulation do not define "snow" or "ice", so it would be up to the pilot to defend either way.
I can therefore, and with some confidence, assume the entirely self appointed role as arbitrator, and find that both Pace and ShyTorque are indeed correct. A pilot can say snow is ice, ice is limited, and so I'm not flying, and be correct. Or, A pilot can say snow is snow, and it is not limited (other than as mentioned), and I'm going flying, and be correct.
Any pilot who flies in snow, is operating in a higher risk environment - a little, or a lot, it depends on many factors. The pilot is responsible for managing risk, and getting it right.
I caution all readers here, that flight in accordance with the limitations for the aircraft, and in falling snow, is safely possible (unless specifically stated against in the limitations section of the Flight Manual), but may exceed one's skill. Use caution.
Pilot DAR; 33 years and 5000 hours of Canadian year 'round flying, PPL in fixed and rotor wing aircraft, including multi and float/flying boat/amphibian, straight and wheel ski flying, in and on the snow.
Every airplane I have flown makes a statement with respect to flight into icing conditions. The only aircraft I have ever flown which make a reference to operations in snow are helicopters (MD500 & B206), and to my understanding, the concern seems to be flameout of turbine engines, as opposed to accumulation on the airframe/lifting surfaces affecting flying qualities. There are Flight Manual statements about the MD500 operations in snow, and there are similar statements in the B206 Flight Manual. There are no such statements in the SW300 Flight Manual with reference to snow that I can find (None in Limitations section for sure). The SW300 has many similarities to the MD500 from a aerodynamics and lifting surfaces point of view. I presume that this fact highlights the difference in snow sensitivity, as the SW300 has a piston engine.
Other than the preceding, none of the three mentioned helicopter flight manuals, or any airplane Flight Manual I have ever read refers limitations or warnings for flight in falling snow.
So, we have definite reference to flight in icing conditions, but no reference to operations in snow. That places a huge responsibility upon the pilot to soley determine whether the proposed operation will be in ice, or snow.
If the pilot makes the determination that the operation will be in snow, (helicopter flameout considerations acknowledged), that pilot is free to fly without limitation imposed by the aircraft.
If, on the other hand, the pilot determines that the proposed operation would be in icing conditions, that pilot would be bound by icing limitations, which in the case of many smaller aircraft would mean no flight.
We have agreed here that snow is a type of ice, so a pilot would be free to make the interpretation that flight in snow is flight in ice, and not go. Incidentally, the Canadian regulation do not define "snow" or "ice", so it would be up to the pilot to defend either way.
I can therefore, and with some confidence, assume the entirely self appointed role as arbitrator, and find that both Pace and ShyTorque are indeed correct. A pilot can say snow is ice, ice is limited, and so I'm not flying, and be correct. Or, A pilot can say snow is snow, and it is not limited (other than as mentioned), and I'm going flying, and be correct.
Any pilot who flies in snow, is operating in a higher risk environment - a little, or a lot, it depends on many factors. The pilot is responsible for managing risk, and getting it right.
I caution all readers here, that flight in accordance with the limitations for the aircraft, and in falling snow, is safely possible (unless specifically stated against in the limitations section of the Flight Manual), but may exceed one's skill. Use caution.
Pilot DAR; 33 years and 5000 hours of Canadian year 'round flying, PPL in fixed and rotor wing aircraft, including multi and float/flying boat/amphibian, straight and wheel ski flying, in and on the snow.