Flying in snow
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Wrong Pace.
Wet mushy stuff did stick. Now it may start to freeze, but it certainly did not seem like it. It did not look like ice and it did fall off during the landing (was n't that violent really!).
But a couple of inches of accumulation on the leading edges of the struts and around the wing roots certainly got my attention.
You may want to call it something else but on at least two occasions the Auster collected wet snow and it stayed on the airframe to the ground.
Wet mushy stuff did stick. Now it may start to freeze, but it certainly did not seem like it. It did not look like ice and it did fall off during the landing (was n't that violent really!).
But a couple of inches of accumulation on the leading edges of the struts and around the wing roots certainly got my attention.
You may want to call it something else but on at least two occasions the Auster collected wet snow and it stayed on the airframe to the ground.
Temperature of air, snow and airframe
All come into the situation:
- All >0C -- no problem
- All < 0C -- no problem
- Airframe > 0C ; Air < 0C -- Snow can stick to airframe; as previously noted easy to happen during taxi after leaving warm hangar
- Air & airframe > 0C -- snow and ice should melt off
- Air & airframe < 0C; snow >0C -- nasty
There is, 'tis true, a sort of long sliding scale between dry powdery snow, via wet sticky snow, via supercooled water droplets which cause icing, to good old fashioned rain.
Some of it (around the wet sticky snow/supercooled water bit of the line) that will build up on leading edges and (particularly with wet snow windshields). Some of it is no more than an irritant and obstruction to visibility (dry snow, rain). A sub-zero airframe on the other hand will collect rain and wet snow quite effectively.
Accurate prediction of what you are going to hit, and whether it'll stick is not very easy so, personally, I would (particularly in the UK which tends to hover around freezing so wet snow is reasonably likely) not assume that snow won't build up.
G
Some of it (around the wet sticky snow/supercooled water bit of the line) that will build up on leading edges and (particularly with wet snow windshields). Some of it is no more than an irritant and obstruction to visibility (dry snow, rain). A sub-zero airframe on the other hand will collect rain and wet snow quite effectively.
Accurate prediction of what you are going to hit, and whether it'll stick is not very easy so, personally, I would (particularly in the UK which tends to hover around freezing so wet snow is reasonably likely) not assume that snow won't build up.
G
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IMHO the most important thing is to be totally comfortable flying in IMC; the real thing not under the hood or with screens.
You will then use only a small proportion of your brain power to actually fly the aircraft leaving loads of spare capacity to worry about, and if needs be resolve all the other problems that may or may not trouble you!
You will then use only a small proportion of your brain power to actually fly the aircraft leaving loads of spare capacity to worry about, and if needs be resolve all the other problems that may or may not trouble you!
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snow
Final 3 G's is right. I was at on a snow covered runway recently. Held the brakes with about 15% power and off we slid.
The other thing to bear in mind is landing. If the R/W is frequently cleared then fair enough. If not and there is a crosswind, you may want to lower your personal limits.
The other thing to bear in mind is landing. If the R/W is frequently cleared then fair enough. If not and there is a crosswind, you may want to lower your personal limits.
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Wrong Pace.
Wet mushy stuff did stick.
Wet mushy stuff did stick.
You are missing the point completely. You will get ice build ups in visible moisture when the temperature hits freezing. At that point the visible moisture changes to ice and attaches it to the airframe.
Your wet mushy stuff is no different to visible moisture. You may have had what you percieved as wet mushy stuff sticking to the airframe but it WILL BE because the temp has hit a level conducive to icing so no different to flying in visible moisture.
Pace
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Snow building up in/on the induction intakes/filters can have you reaching for hot/alternate air. The Partenavia and Apache are 2 types I've had this issue with.
I almost posted this exception but decided not too. Yes if the snow has nowhere to go ie it hits a flat surface like a grille and doesnt pass through there is a danger that it will block the inlet.
Most aircraft dont have that sort of setup but ones which have a grill over something like an engine intake could block with snow if its unheated. The Partenavia did come to mind but that aircraft doesnt have a good reputation in any icing not just snow.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Feb 2009 at 17:32.
Probably. Snow tends to be associated with CBs, thunderstorms tend to be associated with CBs, an ADF tends to point at a TS. So, some risk of snow and ADF deflection being coincident.
G
G
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Flew through snow showers late Sunday PM and it was really cool to see the snowdrops whizzing past and straight at the windshield.
Snow showers were intense but widely spaced so plenty of options to "escape"
Temp was -5 and no icing encountered, clouds were white instead of grey
Snow showers were intense but widely spaced so plenty of options to "escape"
Temp was -5 and no icing encountered, clouds were white instead of grey
The most dangerous thing about flying in snow is whiteout. It's a condition that can occur when flying over featureless terrain - a large open space or a lake, say - where the visibility is reduced by snow, the discernable horizon disappears and you are left without visual clues. The trick to is to follow the shoreline of the lake, or trees along the edge of the field. The only other option is to transition to IMC, pronto.
As for flying in snow, I used to get paid to do things like this:
As for flying in snow, I used to get paid to do things like this:
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Yeah, okay, that stuff I saw on the news, which fell on England today... I would not be flying in that! Clue, If Heathrow is shut down, you should be too!
Seriously, every type of flying has it's own pleasures and challenges. It's up to all of us to enjoy the pleasure without being overcome by the challenge. Things like whiteout/loss of visual reference (which can happen even without the snowfall), brakes frozen solid (wheel won't turn at all) because you let them get warm, by using them, them taxiied through loose snow just before takeoff, and skis frozen to the surface, are their own hazards, and must be planned out of your flight with wisdom.
The airport I was flying from today has had twice the average seasonal snowfall this year, (presently 4.4 meters), and it's piled so high along the taxiway, that today it was hard to get the Cessna (highwing) wings between the snow banks, 'cause they won't go over any more. Now I know how the Cherokee pilots feel!
Pilot DAR
Seriously, every type of flying has it's own pleasures and challenges. It's up to all of us to enjoy the pleasure without being overcome by the challenge. Things like whiteout/loss of visual reference (which can happen even without the snowfall), brakes frozen solid (wheel won't turn at all) because you let them get warm, by using them, them taxiied through loose snow just before takeoff, and skis frozen to the surface, are their own hazards, and must be planned out of your flight with wisdom.
The airport I was flying from today has had twice the average seasonal snowfall this year, (presently 4.4 meters), and it's piled so high along the taxiway, that today it was hard to get the Cessna (highwing) wings between the snow banks, 'cause they won't go over any more. Now I know how the Cherokee pilots feel!
Pilot DAR
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Pace is convinced snow does not stick to airframes. Well it might, but by then it has subtly changed to ice.
I and most other pilots have no idea at what that point is.
It is however interesting that many helicopters have limitations on flying in snow. (there is a bunch of stuff about the engines as you might expect) but the rotor systems have exposure limits to snow. So presumably the manufacturers are worried about the effect on the aerofoils. Of course I'm sure that is probably ice - but if it looks white and flurry and there is an exposure limit - it can stick.
I and most other pilots have no idea at what that point is.
It is however interesting that many helicopters have limitations on flying in snow. (there is a bunch of stuff about the engines as you might expect) but the rotor systems have exposure limits to snow. So presumably the manufacturers are worried about the effect on the aerofoils. Of course I'm sure that is probably ice - but if it looks white and flurry and there is an exposure limit - it can stick.
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Yer all missing the point!
Flying in snow (especially at night) is like watching a sci fi movie in the dark and sitting too close to the screen...........hyperspace?............warp factor 9 anyone?
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Pace is convinced snow does not stick to airframes. Well it might, but by then it has subtly changed to ice.
With all due respect what is snow? how do snow flakes change to ice? only a liquid can change to Ice. examine a snow flake and then work out what its composure is?
On a slippery airframe snow flakes will not accumulate only as I stated in one post if there is nowhere for them to go. Ie they impact onto a thin mesh unheated grill unusual on most aircraft.
You really are digging yourself a bigger hole with each post
Pace
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Drambuster NB - Parsnip . . . . were you a member of the drama club at school by any chance? 
Nah mate.... fight club... yes
The purpose of my post was to elicit the sort of response from the sort of more experienced here which we have sort of half reached. When does dry snow, which I understand isn't sticking to the flying surfaces, become wet enough to be a cold slurry which then freezes onto cold wings and ailerons and becomes a serious hazard. Thats all really ...on the basis that I'm highly unlikely ever to fly in the stuff I'm not sure that I need to know much more than that which "rather be flying" and "Ghengis" have posted
Nah mate.... fight club... yes
The purpose of my post was to elicit the sort of response from the sort of more experienced here which we have sort of half reached. When does dry snow, which I understand isn't sticking to the flying surfaces, become wet enough to be a cold slurry which then freezes onto cold wings and ailerons and becomes a serious hazard. Thats all really ...on the basis that I'm highly unlikely ever to fly in the stuff I'm not sure that I need to know much more than that which "rather be flying" and "Ghengis" have posted
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Parsnip
You have to be aware of icing potential in any flying situation where the temperatures are conducive to icing and there is visible moisture in the form of cloud or precipitation.
That is a sensible approach regardless of whether there is snow or not.
To take an aircraft with no deice/anti ice capability into such a situation is risky.
Pace
You have to be aware of icing potential in any flying situation where the temperatures are conducive to icing and there is visible moisture in the form of cloud or precipitation.
That is a sensible approach regardless of whether there is snow or not.
To take an aircraft with no deice/anti ice capability into such a situation is risky.
Pace
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It is however interesting that many helicopters have limitations on flying in snow. (there is a bunch of stuff about the engines as you might expect) but the rotor systems have exposure limits to snow. So presumably the manufacturers are worried about the effect on the aerofoils. Of course I'm sure that is probably ice - but if it looks white and flurry and there is an exposure limit - it can stick.
Perhaps there are other types of helicopters which are not so tolerant of snow in flight, timid tropical types... We don't get them in Canada!
So we're having all of this emotional discussion about snow now, because the UK finally got some, and everyone is looking at it, talking about it, and wondering what to do with it?
Pilot DAR