Flying in snow
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Flying in snow
As I look out of the window I wonder if anyone has advice about actually flying in snow. Assuming your plane has FKI capability, the winds are ok, no CB's about, and the runway is clear is there any specific advice about flying in snowy stuff more experienced pilots wish to share.
(and no I'm not planning on rushing to the airfield !)
LF
(and no I'm not planning on rushing to the airfield !)
LF
Snow has a tendency to build up on windscreens and leading edges, restricting visibility and changing aerofoil shape. The result can be a wing with a strong disinclination to generate lift. A colleague of mine once nearly ended up a hole in a mountain in Norway in an HS780 as a result of this fascinating phenomenon - and that was supposed to be de-iced! (Anti-icing, maybe, would have worked better.)
Also, even very light snow effectively puts you into IMC (imagine flying through the old windows "stars" screensaver) and you have the idea. If it starts sticking to the windscreen, you won't see a thing (happened to me once in unforecast snow, scared the heck out of me - flew out of it on instruments and thankfully it cleared quickly).
Of course there are fully anti-iced aeroplanes which can handle this, but for the stuff most of us fly, it's likely to end in tears.
Flying *over* snow once it's stopped falling is just pretty. Things look slightly different so a little more care in navigation is needed, low level turbulence tends to be minimal and so long as the runway you use is de-iced (or you've taken appropriate care and applied necessary safety factors) it's really very safe and enjoyable.
G
Also, even very light snow effectively puts you into IMC (imagine flying through the old windows "stars" screensaver) and you have the idea. If it starts sticking to the windscreen, you won't see a thing (happened to me once in unforecast snow, scared the heck out of me - flew out of it on instruments and thankfully it cleared quickly).
Of course there are fully anti-iced aeroplanes which can handle this, but for the stuff most of us fly, it's likely to end in tears.
Flying *over* snow once it's stopped falling is just pretty. Things look slightly different so a little more care in navigation is needed, low level turbulence tends to be minimal and so long as the runway you use is de-iced (or you've taken appropriate care and applied necessary safety factors) it's really very safe and enjoyable.
G
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dreaming of being in Switzerland right now!
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...fate-luck.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...fate-luck.html
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Even the lightest amount of snow makes things VFR difficult. The transitiion from rain to snow can be pretty quick. As stated above, it builds up in some interesting places. On my Auster the wing roots, struts and over 50% of the windscreen. And that occurred in little longer than it took for me to notice the rain wasn't anymore!
Flying after a light dusting of snow can be pretty excellent. Cool, stable air, bright light and on our strip the capability to fly a couple of circuits and check the consistency of touchdown points.
Flying after a heavy dump - impossible for us. Couldn't get out of the hangar without loads of digging and the rolling resistance meant taxiing needed loads of power. And then when it thawed even more rolling resistance!
Flying after a light dusting of snow can be pretty excellent. Cool, stable air, bright light and on our strip the capability to fly a couple of circuits and check the consistency of touchdown points.
Flying after a heavy dump - impossible for us. Couldn't get out of the hangar without loads of digging and the rolling resistance meant taxiing needed loads of power. And then when it thawed even more rolling resistance!
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Snow has a tendency to build up on windscreens and leading edges, restricting visibility and changing aerofoil shape.
So, according to them, light to medium dry powdery snow just blows straight across the airframe without any problem.
If it gets very heavy then it can clog air intakes . . . . . . . . but at least you will have a soft landing
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So far, I've only really frightened myself twice in flying. One was a near miss and the other was many years ago (having just qualified), inadvertently flying into a snow shower in the circuit at Cranfield in a 172.
It was a long 10 seconds of zero viz.
It was a long 10 seconds of zero viz.
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I don't think snow brings the same risks as structural icing i.e. flight through supercooled water with the TAT being below 0C.
Snow is frozen to start with.
Snow can certainly accumulate and is thus dangerous, but would it accumulate without limit, the way ice can do? I don't know. On the rare occassions I have flown through falling snow it did not seem to be sticking at all.
My guess is that the really dangerous thing is higher up; snow is often (always?) formed when freezing rain falls into colder air, and you definitely do not want to be flying in freezing rain. One meteorologist told me that snow is always formed from freezing rain but I am no sure about this.
Snow is frozen to start with.
Snow can certainly accumulate and is thus dangerous, but would it accumulate without limit, the way ice can do? I don't know. On the rare occassions I have flown through falling snow it did not seem to be sticking at all.
My guess is that the really dangerous thing is higher up; snow is often (always?) formed when freezing rain falls into colder air, and you definitely do not want to be flying in freezing rain. One meteorologist told me that snow is always formed from freezing rain but I am no sure about this.
Last edited by IO540; 2nd Feb 2009 at 12:19.
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"According to the latest copy the the US 'Flying' magazine which happens to have an article on this very subject, they say that there is no problem flying in snow (providing it's not the wet/sleety variety that could turn to ice)."
Right so that I understand before I nip down and hire meself a Warrior
Its OK in dry snow ,but not in wet snow.
So how do these guys know when the dry snow is going to suddenly (and maybe catastrophically) turn into wet snow which on contact with the freezing cold wing will immediately turn into a sheet of nasty clear ice and bring the whole flipping lot down into a big smokey mess?
Yanks....................................................... ........
Right so that I understand before I nip down and hire meself a Warrior
Its OK in dry snow ,but not in wet snow.
So how do these guys know when the dry snow is going to suddenly (and maybe catastrophically) turn into wet snow which on contact with the freezing cold wing will immediately turn into a sheet of nasty clear ice and bring the whole flipping lot down into a big smokey mess?
Yanks....................................................... ........
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I thought snow was just formed in clouds below zero. Certainly when skiing you can be clear on top, ski into cloud that is snowing, descend down the bottom where it is raining.
Freezing rain, I believe, needs an above 0 layer above the 0C Iso Therm so that the precipitation can be liquid and then super cool.
I don't have much snow experience, but for me, looking out the window in snow is one of the few occassions where it really looks like I am going fast!!
Freezing rain, I believe, needs an above 0 layer above the 0C Iso Therm so that the precipitation can be liquid and then super cool.
I don't have much snow experience, but for me, looking out the window in snow is one of the few occassions where it really looks like I am going fast!!
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I flew through a light snow shower over Lyon last year, whilst transiting at FL65. The general effect was rather like those Pearl & Dean ad's which they used to show at the cinema, which is mildly disorientating; better to keep focused on the instruments and the OAT gauge...
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IO540 on the correct track here IMHO
Having flown quite a bit in snow (VFR/SVFR only), and I've never had it stick on the aircraft in any way. Now, the way the weather works up here, when the visibility in snow conditions are good enough for VFR/SVFR the temperature is not going to be close to zero, and there is not much risk of severe inversion. That way the snow in the showers (or sustained snow) is going to be dry, and will never stick to the aircraft.
When we get temperatures close to zero, naturally the snow gets "thicker" and wetter. That will stick to the airframe, but the flight visibility will be cr@ap, and you should not be flying anyway. (SVFR)
And....the met office tend to start sending out ICE Messages with MOD to SEV ice when it's like that anyway!
Now, holding time prior to departure have caught a few pilots with their pants down up here even with dry snow, cold temp. Dry snow accumulating on a warm wing during taxi does not necessarily blow off during take off, even in a C172. It can make the wing do weird things (not necessarily dangerous/critical) if you get asymmetrical coverage on top.
Having flown quite a bit in snow (VFR/SVFR only), and I've never had it stick on the aircraft in any way. Now, the way the weather works up here, when the visibility in snow conditions are good enough for VFR/SVFR the temperature is not going to be close to zero, and there is not much risk of severe inversion. That way the snow in the showers (or sustained snow) is going to be dry, and will never stick to the aircraft.
When we get temperatures close to zero, naturally the snow gets "thicker" and wetter. That will stick to the airframe, but the flight visibility will be cr@ap, and you should not be flying anyway. (SVFR)
And....the met office tend to start sending out ICE Messages with MOD to SEV ice when it's like that anyway!
Now, holding time prior to departure have caught a few pilots with their pants down up here even with dry snow, cold temp. Dry snow accumulating on a warm wing during taxi does not necessarily blow off during take off, even in a C172. It can make the wing do weird things (not necessarily dangerous/critical) if you get asymmetrical coverage on top.
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Just over a week ago, I encountered a moderate snow shower which appeared very rapidly in otherwise fine conditions. Visibility closed in very quick all around and cloudbase lowered rapidly to about 1500' but thankfully no build-up of ice at all, and we were through the shower in about 20 seconds at the most.
Wouldn't recommend it however; we had a close call with what looked like a Robin and then very quickly afterwards a microlight which both suddenly appeared straight-ahead out of the murk without any warning; obviously, like us, trying to get through the suddenly deteriorating Wx back into good conditions on the other side; nothing on frequency, just appeared dead ahead less than a mile away. All three of us squeezed in under this shower, with a lowering cloudbase and jammed between two hills. Perfect recipe for a disaster; gave me a bit of a fright.
Wouldn't recommend it however; we had a close call with what looked like a Robin and then very quickly afterwards a microlight which both suddenly appeared straight-ahead out of the murk without any warning; obviously, like us, trying to get through the suddenly deteriorating Wx back into good conditions on the other side; nothing on frequency, just appeared dead ahead less than a mile away. All three of us squeezed in under this shower, with a lowering cloudbase and jammed between two hills. Perfect recipe for a disaster; gave me a bit of a fright.
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I have flown in snow many times in IMC and never had a build up from it. It is already frozen and apart from sleet or a situation where there is visible moisture and snow together would have no binding ability. But that would be more in the realms of icing conditions rather than snow itself.
At night especially with strobe lights or when you take the landing lights the effect can be very dissorientating. The flakes especially the larger they are can cause a very disturbing streaming effect. The solution is NOT to look outside but keep your eyes firmly on the instrumentation.
I can remember flying back from Scotland at night years ago in a snow storm with the added complication of severe turbulence.
The leg from inverness to Glasgow was hell on earth in a Baron and the sense of relief breaking the front with all the city lights of Glasgow was immense.
Another trip back from Ireland again at night was no problem at all although there was intense snow. The worst problem I had was driving home on the motorway where I seriously got stuck
One plus with flying in snow is that it will polish your paintwork like nothing you have seen and the aircraft will gleam.
Negative is visibility which as one poster said will drop badly and still give odd sensations when trying to visually land.
Ideally use an ILS and fly that to minima. Then keep your eyes fixed firmly on the landing point runway lights. Dont look sideways as that will mess up your ability to judge the glideslope. You will find yourself flying lower on the glideslope than you should be. Why I dont know.
Daytime while still a problem is not as bad as the flakes will blend more with the cloud and not have such a pronounced effect.
Pace
At night especially with strobe lights or when you take the landing lights the effect can be very dissorientating. The flakes especially the larger they are can cause a very disturbing streaming effect. The solution is NOT to look outside but keep your eyes firmly on the instrumentation.
I can remember flying back from Scotland at night years ago in a snow storm with the added complication of severe turbulence.
The leg from inverness to Glasgow was hell on earth in a Baron and the sense of relief breaking the front with all the city lights of Glasgow was immense.
Another trip back from Ireland again at night was no problem at all although there was intense snow. The worst problem I had was driving home on the motorway where I seriously got stuck
One plus with flying in snow is that it will polish your paintwork like nothing you have seen and the aircraft will gleam.
Negative is visibility which as one poster said will drop badly and still give odd sensations when trying to visually land.
Ideally use an ILS and fly that to minima. Then keep your eyes fixed firmly on the landing point runway lights. Dont look sideways as that will mess up your ability to judge the glideslope. You will find yourself flying lower on the glideslope than you should be. Why I dont know.
Daytime while still a problem is not as bad as the flakes will blend more with the cloud and not have such a pronounced effect.
Pace
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Referring to "snow" is kinda like referring to "trees". we think we know what we mean, but there are really all kings if differences one to the next. Some kinds of snow I would not even want to drive my car in, other kinds are a visual delight, and totally harmless. Then there's all the type in between.
So, when someone tells you it's snowing, all you really know for sure is that the temperature is near or below freezing, and there is precipitation. More information is required to determine if flying whatever aircraft type you have, is suitably safe.
If the temperature is well below freezing (-5 or lower), and will remain so, and you have the visibility to be safe and legal VFR, flying in snow in most aircraft would be quite safe (known icing equipment not required). Snow will not accumulate on a moving aircraft. In the last week, 4 of my 5 hours of flying have been in snow, both in the mighty Cessna 150 and the Jet Ranger. With visibilities as low as 1.5 miles in the plane, I kept my testing very close to the airport, and there was no problem. It the Jet Ranger yesterday, we landed when the visibility got to be less than a mile.
When it gets very cold (-40) you really don't get much snow. You sometimes get ice crystals suspended in the air, and the beauty can be incredible. If you're IFR in heavy snow at temperatures of -15 to -25, a static charge can build up on the airframe. I have had cases flying the Aztec, where you can put your outstretched hand up to the windshield, and "sparks" (like you see in those round glass domes) will flow from your finger tips to the windshield. It will light up the cockpit just enough to make the passenger in the back scream!
Around here we get "Snow streamers", which are very local and dense snowstorms which flow downwind off the lakes. If you have internet radar, they are easily anticipated. Before that service was available, you took your chances, because there was no way of forecasting, other than direct observations. For a well planned flight, there would be a bunch of phone calls to buddies along the route, and chatter on the radio (if you had one) along the way. A poorly planned flight, could turn out like this:
While in Sudbury, awaiting the fuelling of the Cessna 206 I was to ferry home, we were upstairs in Flight Service checking the weather. The Flight Service specialist looked out the window toward the 206, and casually asked me if it was mine. I answered “yes”. He said “well, you might want to go down and check on it, because the fuel truck which is fuelling it is on fire.” Huh!? Sure enough, I looked out, and the driver had the hood up, and flames were belching out of the engine room. We sure moved fast getting downstairs and out to the plane.
The driver had already emptied his fire extinguisher, and the fire still raged. We pushed the 206 well away from the action, and it was thankfully unaffected. The airport fire department soon arrived, and foamed the fuel truck, and that was that. No fuel.
After several hours another fuel truck arrived, and fuelled us. We were ready to go, and it was dusk…. Never mind, it was a beautifully clear evening, and I knew the route well. I was though, now regretting lending my portable nav/comm., as it would be rather handy for night flying in my otherwise Nordo Cessna 206. Oh well, hindsight will be 20/20 later!
So we launch off. I’m flying alone in the 206, following RN and JD in the IFR equipped Cessna 182. After three quarters of an hour, it was completely dark. I was following off and behind the 182, keeping the best distance I could judge from only the two nav lights and beacon. The plane itself was invisible in the dark. During one of the routine instrument checks, with the flashlight in my teeth, because I’d found that the instrument lights did not work, I noticed that my right fuel was below half. This would seem normal, except that I had taken off, and run up until now on the left only, and they do not cross feed! Fuel leak! I now selected the right tank to use what remained there, before it was lost overboard. This was not a serious problem though, as I had lots of fuel anyway. After a while, I felt the sensation of turning circles. This sensation is known to affect perception while flying instruments only. I paid more attention to my control inputs. Sure enough, if I held the controls straight, I went straight, but the 182 went away, and following it was one of my objectives! I now paid more attention to my own navigation rather than just blindly following them. The first thing I noticed was that we were at 750 feet altitude, which was alarming, because nearby Georgian Bay is at 581! Why are we less than 200 feet AGL? I turned on the landing light – snow! And lots of it. Obviously they were trying to remain VFR, though who knows why, ‘cause it was too dark to see the ground anyway! The next thing was that we were going north, instead of the south, which was our route. I surmised that they had decided to return to Sudbury, as there were no other useable airports in the area. Then we were turning east, then south, then east again…. Turning “S” turns for no good reason. All I could do was follow, I had no ability to navigate.
After what seemed an eternity, the dim lights of a town became visible through the snow. We obviously both saw them at the same time, because we both headed straight for them. Bracebridge. We’d (really they’d – I was just following) found Muskoka airport. Once in the circuit, we were clear of snow, and could see south forever. I though about keeping going, but then reminded myself of my uncertain fuel situation, and decided to land for fuel.
Once we both fuelled, and checked the weather (which was reported as just fine to the south) we elected to keep going. So we took off again. As I could follow the highway now, and was much faster, I elected to head home on my own. By the time I got to Orillia, I was back into the snow, as thick as ever! I followed the highway with great precision a few hundred feet up. They don’t put towers right in the middle of highways!
I got through, and continued south, with the city of Toronto now in sight, Pottageville was assured!
Now the runway lights at Pottageville were still powered by the reliable little Honda generator, which RN’s wife had left running for us. Sure enough, there were the lights! Excellent! I slipped in for a perfect landing, and was very relieved to be safely on the ground at home. On short final, I saw their nights 10 miles back, so I knew that they’d made it through the Orillia snow as well. I parked, and sat back to relax.
After a few minutes, I saw them come overhead, and felt the final relief. They circled for a while, then some more, and more. I could not figure out why they were not landing. I went over to my parked C150, to call them on the radio. At the same moment I heard a stream of profanity come over the radio, I clued in; the generator had quit, and there were no runway lights! There was a break in the tirade just long enough for me to report that I would get the generator going again. Problem… It needed gas. The gas truck was there, but RN had the keys in his pocket, so it would not be offering any gas for the generator ‘till he was down!
I ended up sump draining enough gas from my plane to get the generator running long enough for them to make it in safely. That night was the point at which we decided that permanent runway light power, and ARCAL was needed. The final connections began the following week!
So, when someone tells you it's snowing, all you really know for sure is that the temperature is near or below freezing, and there is precipitation. More information is required to determine if flying whatever aircraft type you have, is suitably safe.
If the temperature is well below freezing (-5 or lower), and will remain so, and you have the visibility to be safe and legal VFR, flying in snow in most aircraft would be quite safe (known icing equipment not required). Snow will not accumulate on a moving aircraft. In the last week, 4 of my 5 hours of flying have been in snow, both in the mighty Cessna 150 and the Jet Ranger. With visibilities as low as 1.5 miles in the plane, I kept my testing very close to the airport, and there was no problem. It the Jet Ranger yesterday, we landed when the visibility got to be less than a mile.
When it gets very cold (-40) you really don't get much snow. You sometimes get ice crystals suspended in the air, and the beauty can be incredible. If you're IFR in heavy snow at temperatures of -15 to -25, a static charge can build up on the airframe. I have had cases flying the Aztec, where you can put your outstretched hand up to the windshield, and "sparks" (like you see in those round glass domes) will flow from your finger tips to the windshield. It will light up the cockpit just enough to make the passenger in the back scream!
Around here we get "Snow streamers", which are very local and dense snowstorms which flow downwind off the lakes. If you have internet radar, they are easily anticipated. Before that service was available, you took your chances, because there was no way of forecasting, other than direct observations. For a well planned flight, there would be a bunch of phone calls to buddies along the route, and chatter on the radio (if you had one) along the way. A poorly planned flight, could turn out like this:
While in Sudbury, awaiting the fuelling of the Cessna 206 I was to ferry home, we were upstairs in Flight Service checking the weather. The Flight Service specialist looked out the window toward the 206, and casually asked me if it was mine. I answered “yes”. He said “well, you might want to go down and check on it, because the fuel truck which is fuelling it is on fire.” Huh!? Sure enough, I looked out, and the driver had the hood up, and flames were belching out of the engine room. We sure moved fast getting downstairs and out to the plane.
The driver had already emptied his fire extinguisher, and the fire still raged. We pushed the 206 well away from the action, and it was thankfully unaffected. The airport fire department soon arrived, and foamed the fuel truck, and that was that. No fuel.
After several hours another fuel truck arrived, and fuelled us. We were ready to go, and it was dusk…. Never mind, it was a beautifully clear evening, and I knew the route well. I was though, now regretting lending my portable nav/comm., as it would be rather handy for night flying in my otherwise Nordo Cessna 206. Oh well, hindsight will be 20/20 later!
So we launch off. I’m flying alone in the 206, following RN and JD in the IFR equipped Cessna 182. After three quarters of an hour, it was completely dark. I was following off and behind the 182, keeping the best distance I could judge from only the two nav lights and beacon. The plane itself was invisible in the dark. During one of the routine instrument checks, with the flashlight in my teeth, because I’d found that the instrument lights did not work, I noticed that my right fuel was below half. This would seem normal, except that I had taken off, and run up until now on the left only, and they do not cross feed! Fuel leak! I now selected the right tank to use what remained there, before it was lost overboard. This was not a serious problem though, as I had lots of fuel anyway. After a while, I felt the sensation of turning circles. This sensation is known to affect perception while flying instruments only. I paid more attention to my control inputs. Sure enough, if I held the controls straight, I went straight, but the 182 went away, and following it was one of my objectives! I now paid more attention to my own navigation rather than just blindly following them. The first thing I noticed was that we were at 750 feet altitude, which was alarming, because nearby Georgian Bay is at 581! Why are we less than 200 feet AGL? I turned on the landing light – snow! And lots of it. Obviously they were trying to remain VFR, though who knows why, ‘cause it was too dark to see the ground anyway! The next thing was that we were going north, instead of the south, which was our route. I surmised that they had decided to return to Sudbury, as there were no other useable airports in the area. Then we were turning east, then south, then east again…. Turning “S” turns for no good reason. All I could do was follow, I had no ability to navigate.
After what seemed an eternity, the dim lights of a town became visible through the snow. We obviously both saw them at the same time, because we both headed straight for them. Bracebridge. We’d (really they’d – I was just following) found Muskoka airport. Once in the circuit, we were clear of snow, and could see south forever. I though about keeping going, but then reminded myself of my uncertain fuel situation, and decided to land for fuel.
Once we both fuelled, and checked the weather (which was reported as just fine to the south) we elected to keep going. So we took off again. As I could follow the highway now, and was much faster, I elected to head home on my own. By the time I got to Orillia, I was back into the snow, as thick as ever! I followed the highway with great precision a few hundred feet up. They don’t put towers right in the middle of highways!
I got through, and continued south, with the city of Toronto now in sight, Pottageville was assured!
Now the runway lights at Pottageville were still powered by the reliable little Honda generator, which RN’s wife had left running for us. Sure enough, there were the lights! Excellent! I slipped in for a perfect landing, and was very relieved to be safely on the ground at home. On short final, I saw their nights 10 miles back, so I knew that they’d made it through the Orillia snow as well. I parked, and sat back to relax.
After a few minutes, I saw them come overhead, and felt the final relief. They circled for a while, then some more, and more. I could not figure out why they were not landing. I went over to my parked C150, to call them on the radio. At the same moment I heard a stream of profanity come over the radio, I clued in; the generator had quit, and there were no runway lights! There was a break in the tirade just long enough for me to report that I would get the generator going again. Problem… It needed gas. The gas truck was there, but RN had the keys in his pocket, so it would not be offering any gas for the generator ‘till he was down!
I ended up sump draining enough gas from my plane to get the generator running long enough for them to make it in safely. That night was the point at which we decided that permanent runway light power, and ARCAL was needed. The final connections began the following week!
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Squeaky dry snow probably does n't stick. Wet mushy stuff definitely does. That is, in the UK and probably at low altitude the sort of stuff VFR fliers are most likely to run into.
Will it accumulate like ice? From my limited experience probably not, as it still seemed to be a bit mushy.
Will it freeze? Don't know but the loss of visibility is enough to mean you don't want to find out.
Will it accumulate like ice? From my limited experience probably not, as it still seemed to be a bit mushy.
Will it freeze? Don't know but the loss of visibility is enough to mean you don't want to find out.
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Squeaky dry snow probably does n't stick. Wet mushy stuff definitely does.
Squeaky dry stuff will not stick wet mushy stuff is still wet and mushy and still will not stick any more than other visible moisture unless the temperature drops enough to freeze it on contact. At wihich point it will no longer be wet mushy stuff
Pace
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Thanks PilotDAR - that was very informative followed by a good yarn on 'how not to do it' !
You and Pace have confirmed that the image of piles of fluffy snow building up on a leading edge at 150 kts is not entirely realistic !
Drambuster
NB - Parsnip . . . . were you a member of the drama club at school by any chance?
You and Pace have confirmed that the image of piles of fluffy snow building up on a leading edge at 150 kts is not entirely realistic !
Drambuster
NB - Parsnip . . . . were you a member of the drama club at school by any chance?
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If you do go flying after snowfall, there is one potential gotcha.
When you do the power check (run up) the snow (or ice) can reduce the friction between the wheels and the ground and you can move quite nicely with parking and foot brakes fully applied
So be careful where you choose to run up.
When you do the power check (run up) the snow (or ice) can reduce the friction between the wheels and the ground and you can move quite nicely with parking and foot brakes fully applied
So be careful where you choose to run up.