Light Aircraft down in Staffordshire
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i am aware of a PA28 who's ailerons failed (plane landed safely after lining up with rudder only), due to manufacturing error (years after manufacturing). Structural failure of the elevators (trim system?) or similar is not common but not impossible
correction . . . . . .
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mid sixties is young(ish)
I knew a remarkable lady who rode to hounds into her nineties and drove the horsebox.Mind you ,you wouldn't want to meet her coming the other way in the horsebox.
Played tennis into her eighties until she injured her arm.
She lived until 104 and at her 100th consumed enough bubbly to gently fall over ,caught gracefully by a guest.
She had been out in Africa before the war and knew all the people in Happy Valley,when I asked her what they were like she said
"An absolute waste of time ,my dear"
They don't make too many like that!
A lady friend lives down the lane,90 years old,had her first flying lesson a couple of months ago.
Lady friend of my wife ,in case you had other thoughts.
Sorry thread wander,happens when you get old.
Played tennis into her eighties until she injured her arm.
She lived until 104 and at her 100th consumed enough bubbly to gently fall over ,caught gracefully by a guest.
She had been out in Africa before the war and knew all the people in Happy Valley,when I asked her what they were like she said
"An absolute waste of time ,my dear"
They don't make too many like that!
A lady friend lives down the lane,90 years old,had her first flying lesson a couple of months ago.
Lady friend of my wife ,in case you had other thoughts.
Sorry thread wander,happens when you get old.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPLandAME and Lister Noble
My apologies for incorrect use of old
Mature Pilot rather than 20 year old Hot Rods who would beat up any bit of railway line . And yes I do know a few "Mature" pilots who pull a few loops and barrel rolls I hope he wasnt one of them.
Pace
My apologies for incorrect use of old
Mature Pilot rather than 20 year old Hot Rods who would beat up any bit of railway line . And yes I do know a few "Mature" pilots who pull a few loops and barrel rolls I hope he wasnt one of them.Pace
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont overfil
The stabilator control system is a valid topic, in my opinion.
One of the important pre-flight checks on the -140 is to look down inside the fuselage from the rear of the stabilator to ensure the control jack and cable are in working order.
I understand that the cable can come adrift from the screw jack, but I have never heard of this in practice. Maybe our engineering friends can shed some light on this issue?
With the aircraft being over 40 years old and the CofA within a couple of months of expiring, I wonder if this was a consideration? It is the only structural/control failure I can think of which is a known possibility and for which one always checks.
The accident is certainly baffling at the moment, as so many people have already pointed out.
KR
FOK
The stabilator control system is a valid topic, in my opinion.
One of the important pre-flight checks on the -140 is to look down inside the fuselage from the rear of the stabilator to ensure the control jack and cable are in working order.
I understand that the cable can come adrift from the screw jack, but I have never heard of this in practice. Maybe our engineering friends can shed some light on this issue?
With the aircraft being over 40 years old and the CofA within a couple of months of expiring, I wonder if this was a consideration? It is the only structural/control failure I can think of which is a known possibility and for which one always checks.
The accident is certainly baffling at the moment, as so many people have already pointed out.
KR
FOK
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not speculation,but....
I was thinking along these lines a couple of days ago but did not post.
I do the pre-flight as best I can on the L4 and take my time ,a very simple craft although there are hidden cables for all the major controls.
We have the annual and 25 and 50 hr checks but some of these sytems will not be inspected for a whole year.
Not speculating on this accident,but it does make one think about what goes unckecked.
Lister
I do the pre-flight as best I can on the L4 and take my time ,a very simple craft although there are hidden cables for all the major controls.
We have the annual and 25 and 50 hr checks but some of these sytems will not be inspected for a whole year.
Not speculating on this accident,but it does make one think about what goes unckecked.
Lister
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing is that, with a good pilot, the total loss of any one of
- aileron control
- elevator control
- elevator free movement
- elevator trim
- rudder control
is not a problem unless it happens in the middle of an aggressive maneuver (an unusual attitude, basically). If it happens in more or less level flight, the plane isn't going to plummet. You still have control, due to secondary control surface effects (rudder for roll/turn, elev. trim for pitch, etc).
If the elevator falls off, the plane will plummet allright but the witnesses did not suggest this happened.
There have been (rare) light jet accidents where an engine disintegration shredded control cables to the tail, resulting in a loss of control. Could this have been the Biggin Hill Citation one, recently? But that isn't likely in this case - the engine is up front.
- aileron control
- elevator control
- elevator free movement
- elevator trim
- rudder control
is not a problem unless it happens in the middle of an aggressive maneuver (an unusual attitude, basically). If it happens in more or less level flight, the plane isn't going to plummet. You still have control, due to secondary control surface effects (rudder for roll/turn, elev. trim for pitch, etc).
If the elevator falls off, the plane will plummet allright but the witnesses did not suggest this happened.
There have been (rare) light jet accidents where an engine disintegration shredded control cables to the tail, resulting in a loss of control. Could this have been the Biggin Hill Citation one, recently? But that isn't likely in this case - the engine is up front.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FWIW
I have not flown a PA-140 in quite a while, but did my initial training in -161/-181s. One of the things we always checked during preflight was the integrity of the bolts that limit the stabilator travel. If they fail, you can totally overcontrol the a/c. However, you would of course only be in danger of doing so by moving the control surface (stabilator) to its limits.
This is really a weird one. My guess is human factors of one kind or another....
I have not flown a PA-140 in quite a while, but did my initial training in -161/-181s. One of the things we always checked during preflight was the integrity of the bolts that limit the stabilator travel. If they fail, you can totally overcontrol the a/c. However, you would of course only be in danger of doing so by moving the control surface (stabilator) to its limits.
This is really a weird one. My guess is human factors of one kind or another....
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm puzzled, perhaps you can help out. How do you know there was no radio call? Who was the pilot speaking to on the ground?
Read it in one of the numerous tabloid press articles so maybe false but that is all we have to go on at present as well as the witness statements.
If there was radio communication chances are that whatever the problem would have been broadcast or picked up from one source or another. ie it would have already leaked out to the media.
"Mayday Mayday Mayday xyz has a rough engine or Pilot unwell request vectors to nearest airfield".
The fact that no one is the wiser would indicate that the press were correct in their statement and that whatever happened was abrupt.
Flying VFR they may not have been talking to anyone or may have been on an FIS with a ground station who probably were not that interested in them anyway. A Mayday call would have drawn attention but unless someone knows otherwise no such call was forthcoming.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Jan 2009 at 00:50.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has got to be one of the most ridiculous cases of amateur accident investigation ever seen on the internet.
'Elevators not seen coming off a PA28, stabilator control jacks and cables visible in the rear fuselage from the back on a pre-flight, no radio call was made because it said so in tabloid newspapers, over control the aircraft because of a missing limit stop, aircraft was nearly due an Annual etc etc etc'.
Sounds like some of you should progress beyond the I-Spy book of aircraft and then you might know a little bit more about what you are putting into print. Hope the media don't believe you and you wonder why the press get things wrong!!
Give me strength....!
'Elevators not seen coming off a PA28, stabilator control jacks and cables visible in the rear fuselage from the back on a pre-flight, no radio call was made because it said so in tabloid newspapers, over control the aircraft because of a missing limit stop, aircraft was nearly due an Annual etc etc etc'.
Sounds like some of you should progress beyond the I-Spy book of aircraft and then you might know a little bit more about what you are putting into print. Hope the media don't believe you and you wonder why the press get things wrong!!
Give me strength....!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace, No offence, but I am sorry I think you are giving the pilot a level of skill in dealing with an in-flight emergency that I have rarely seen in GA. When practising PFL's with students 99.9% of them do not even think of a radio call let alone have the mindset to actually tune the thing to an appropriate frequency and make a call all at the same time as choosing a field, getting best glide and going through drills. Not to mention the fact that this was the middle of the holidays with most places shut. I hardly even turned my radio on during the break let alone talked to anyone. I am more likely to give credit that the guy was attempting to aviate following a failure and just ran out of options.
As smarthawke has said this really is getting beyond the realms of belief.
And as I have said a couple of time before, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
As smarthawke has said this really is getting beyond the realms of belief.
And as I have said a couple of time before, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bose
We none of us know what happened to cause that tragic accident it is all speculation.
SmartHawke
This is a pilot forum. IMO it is healthy for pilots to discuss and disect the possibilities of why an accident occurred. It can happen to any of us here.
The more we discuss the more aware we become of not only the accident in question but of other potential threats to our safety.
IMO it is only when these awful things happen that we take stock and realise our own vulnerability and hence learn and no we are not the media but a pilot forum.
Pace
We none of us know what happened to cause that tragic accident it is all speculation.
SmartHawke
This is a pilot forum. IMO it is healthy for pilots to discuss and disect the possibilities of why an accident occurred. It can happen to any of us here.
The more we discuss the more aware we become of not only the accident in question but of other potential threats to our safety.
IMO it is only when these awful things happen that we take stock and realise our own vulnerability and hence learn and no we are not the media but a pilot forum.
Pace
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am with you Pace.
Yes the most obvious reason is the likely one, but not always.
Either way, us all wrecking our brains to think of potential scenario's is a good thing for all of us. And sharing them helps our brain working.
Thinking of scenario's without hurting the ones left behind unduly (respect) is what this forum is about. The ever recurring discussion as to post or not post is just a side annoyance coming from new members and a few die-hards
Yes the most obvious reason is the likely one, but not always.
Either way, us all wrecking our brains to think of potential scenario's is a good thing for all of us. And sharing them helps our brain working.
Thinking of scenario's without hurting the ones left behind unduly (respect) is what this forum is about. The ever recurring discussion as to post or not post is just a side annoyance coming from new members and a few die-hards
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All we know about this accident is the aircraft was destroyed in a high speed impact.
Almost every scenario you can dream up is a possibility, and about the only scenario that can probably be eliminated is the accident was not weather related.
A discussion about what you would do if an aileron failed would be informative and worthwhile. Flag the thread as such and it will attract attention.
Second guessing hypothetical accident scenarios and half debating each is probably the best way of disconnecting from most readers on this forum.
Sorry, but you have almost nothing to go on, and this has just become another utterly pointless “what if” debate.
However, don’t let me stop you, debate on, that is what this forum is about, in the same way that I simply wanted to explain why I didn’t join in.
.. .. .. and to answer the last post, if you want to excercise your brains (which I would agree is probably a good thing) then as I suggested earlier go start dedicated threads along the lines of "the thread on X-XXXX got me thinking, what would you do if .. .. .. ).
Almost every scenario you can dream up is a possibility, and about the only scenario that can probably be eliminated is the accident was not weather related.
A discussion about what you would do if an aileron failed would be informative and worthwhile. Flag the thread as such and it will attract attention.
Second guessing hypothetical accident scenarios and half debating each is probably the best way of disconnecting from most readers on this forum.
Sorry, but you have almost nothing to go on, and this has just become another utterly pointless “what if” debate.
However, don’t let me stop you, debate on, that is what this forum is about, in the same way that I simply wanted to explain why I didn’t join in.
.. .. .. and to answer the last post, if you want to excercise your brains (which I would agree is probably a good thing) then as I suggested earlier go start dedicated threads along the lines of "the thread on X-XXXX got me thinking, what would you do if .. .. .. ).
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Daventry
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will we ever know?
I have no problem with all the speculation being expounded here but with what appears to be the total destruction of the aircraft compounded by the subsequent fire,is it possible that the AAIB would be able to provide a definite cause with so little to go on?
The AAIB appear to be an extremely thorough organisation but I imagine there is very little physical evidence for them to analyse/test.Maybe this will remain a mystery forever.
MM
The AAIB appear to be an extremely thorough organisation but I imagine there is very little physical evidence for them to analyse/test.Maybe this will remain a mystery forever.
MM
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Second guessing hypothetical accident scenarios and half debating each is probably the best way of disconnecting from most readers on this forum.
This thread has had 22500 hits compared to 1000 to 2000 usual hits on most threads. I think that states the level of interest that the thread has generated.
Any thread will have its life. It then naturally comes to a halt. Usually portions of the thread are informative,some are rubbish, some portions are antagonistic some develop into outright war, but ride through that and the conclusion is normally beneficial and sensible.
Pace
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1 - An actual radar track (maybe with altitudes) which will answer many questions about the flight leading up to the incident.
2 - Pieces of rotating machinery (blades etc) which will either show evidence of damage from rotation or impact (i.e. was the engine generating significant power)
3 - A presence or absence of debris removed from the main debris field (i.e. evidence of any pre-impact failure)
4 - There may be radio or history of flight information that helps inform the conclusion (including W&B, and intentions of the flight)
these will all help to rule out many of the speculated causes. Whether they can narrow down to a probable cause or several possibilities will need to wait for their conclusions.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace
It is a bit like a motorway accident - everyone stops and looks, that is the way we are.
However, please tell me in an instructional sense what the average forumite will take away from this thread in terms of the discussion about this accident being a specific "learning experience".
In many accident scenarios we have a reasonable idea of what happened (particularly in the commercial world). Such accidents provide a useful learning scenario. We recall the discussion about the events and take measures to ensure we dont end up playing out the same set of events. No message can be taken from this debate, or if it can, it is so far burried as to be of little value.
I dont know if you read Flying (the American publication) - but the monthly article Aftermath I think it is titled is well worth reading and demonstrates the value of discussing an accident where there is a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest the causes. If we can have a discussion along these lines I think it is worthwhile, if we have almost nothing on which to base our speculation that I remain firmly unconvinced of its value.
Speculate as you wish, but you have almost nothing on which to base your speculation, so for me at any rate it is a pointless excercise.
It is a bit like a motorway accident - everyone stops and looks, that is the way we are.
However, please tell me in an instructional sense what the average forumite will take away from this thread in terms of the discussion about this accident being a specific "learning experience".
In many accident scenarios we have a reasonable idea of what happened (particularly in the commercial world). Such accidents provide a useful learning scenario. We recall the discussion about the events and take measures to ensure we dont end up playing out the same set of events. No message can be taken from this debate, or if it can, it is so far burried as to be of little value.
I dont know if you read Flying (the American publication) - but the monthly article Aftermath I think it is titled is well worth reading and demonstrates the value of discussing an accident where there is a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest the causes. If we can have a discussion along these lines I think it is worthwhile, if we have almost nothing on which to base our speculation that I remain firmly unconvinced of its value.
Speculate as you wish, but you have almost nothing on which to base your speculation, so for me at any rate it is a pointless excercise.