Light Aircraft down in Staffordshire

[will5023]

Looking through all the threads and the possible time on type the pilot had on the aircraft, maybe a spin is a bit of a factor, but if he had the aircraft a long time and knew it well maybe not, think someone said he had a PPL for 19yrs? Could be more of a health problem leading to loss of control, especially if the passengers were not pilots. There is also the issue of mechanical problems, or structural, by that I means controls.
Whatever it was will come out in either a post-mortem report or from the aicendent report. Condolences to the families involved.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Statistically low-level stall-spin departures are not necessarily fatal but, being realistic, they are a common cause of fatalities. By type, the older "plank wing" PA28s, whilst not excessively dangerous, do have some history of fatal accidents of this nature (which, incidentally, was almost totally eliminated with the later tapered wing aircraft). This *may* be due to the aircraft's stall warner, which is very non-intrusive, unlike the relatively effective audio-warned of the later aircraft. Or it may be unrelated.

W.R.T. Discussion on performance. Whilst I'd agree that a Cherokee 140 is easily overloaded, an overload related accident is most likely to occur just after take-off, not some time later. Two people in the front and one in the back seat is unlikely to be close to the aft CG limit at any fuel load.



I was listening to the radio news driving home from flying yesterday when the BBC gave the names of the two passengers. A 10 year old and 18 month old child who will never see their parents again. This is the best reason in the world why we should all pay every attention to understanding and teaching the best practice in safety in our flying. I've spent a lot of my life studying and researching the causes of fatal light aircraft accidents; to some extent this has been reduced in the last year or so; this concentrated my mind painfully on the need for continued efforts in this area.

G

[beatnik]

I'm astounded

Instead of temporarily removing the aircraft details from G-xxxx, the CAA have in fact already listed the owner/pilot as deceased....

Speechless

[172driver]

Speechless

Why? The CAA website provides factual information, and this is a - certainly very, very sad - fact.

I feel sorry for the kids......

[beatnik]

172Driver

I recognise that the website is a factual database, and a good one at that - but today is a Sunday, and the CAA is the epitome of a bureaucracy. So it seems to me that some admin/techie person must have gone in to work and updated the website.

[VFE]

Well said Genghis, it appears from reading this thread that much work still needs to be done in drawing peoples attention to flight safety given the desire by some to use the emotional aspect to stifle all positive discussion on preventing them.

VFE.

[interpreter]

Pa-28 140

I flew this type frequently in the late 1960's with a visual RED LAMP stall warning indicator. On one occasion with 4 on board the stall warning lamp came on at take off just as I eased back on the column. I had no idea why so pushed the nose down running into the X area for an extra 5 knots and very gently eased back the column. This time OK but I did not attempt a normal rate of climb until some time later. Subsequently I was told I should have had TWO stages of flap down rather than just ONE. This time I survived to know better.

However I was surprised at how heavy and "lumpily" the aircarft flew with four up and for finals I set up the aircarft some way out and longer than normal to get a feeling for the sink rate.

Nevetheless I never experienced any problems with 3 up and even although the aircraft had the "squared wings" never had any problems handling the stall even under blind flying instruction. I lovely little aircarft.

[montag]

Instead of temporarily removing the aircraft details from G-xxxx, the CAA have in fact already listed the owner/pilot as deceased....

Maybe the intention is to prevent members of the media from mistakenly attempting to contact the aircraft's owner, which would only cause additional distress to his family. I do not think that the CAA have acted insensitively.

My thoughts are with the families and friends involved.

[VictorGolf]

I expect I shall get flamed for this and I apologise for any thread drift but I have question. I was coming back from the Fly-In at North Weald today and chugging up "Mig Alley" between Luton and Stansted. Stansted ATIS was giving a temp of minus 2 degrees when I saw some lowish cloud ahead, fortunately off my track. The question is how quickly would a windscreen ice up in these conditions? I'm not suggesting for a minute it was a factor in this crash but I would like to know as I don't usually fly in such cold conditions. BTW don't engines perform better when it is cold.

[IO540]

The question is how quickly would a windscreen ice up in these conditions?

Anything from not at all, to totally covered in seconds. It all depends on how much humidity there is in the air. I think bookworm is the one to ask how much icing potential there would have been on the day.

It's an interesting possibility - assuming the pilot was completely unable to fly on instruments.

BTW don't engines perform better when it is cold.

They do but in a PA28-140 you tend to be grateful for the smallest mercies, like having the prop rotating So, not a lot of difference.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

We all know that non-pilot witness statements are to be taken with a very big pinch of salt, but the consistancy of the reports (initially very low flight, high revving engine noise before impact, high speed descent, ground-shaking thump on impact, total destruction of the aircraft with no recognisable pieces left - and one credible description of a 'looping roll' [barrel roll?]into the ground) plus the video evidence of the accident site make me think this accident does not fit the usual GA accident scenarios. I await the AAIB report with interest. This one looks 'different'.

SSD

[youngskywalker]

I often wonder how the AAIB cope with the amount of work they seem to have, I reckon they must be investigating at least one new fatal GA prang per month.

[vabsie]

I was wondering how much press GA Accidents like these get in the UK?

If this unfortunate accident did not disrupt a rail track would it have made the BBC evening news?

I'm purely asking in order to try and gauge how frequent fatal GA accidents are? Is there an easy way to search on the AAIB Site for fatal accidents for a specific year?

And lastly .. terrible news of course and thoughts with all the family and friends.

[cessna-kevin]

how many people really mean "my thoughts go out to the family" or waffle on about the incident without knowing the facts? i spoke with a friend of mine with whom ive flown on and off with for some years, who also said look on pprune and you will have countless comments of people getting at each other or trying to score browney points about the cause of the incident.this is one area of pprune that saddens me,i hope i am not alone and that many pilots out there feel likewise but cant be bothered to be caught up in this posting of a sad event.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Shaggy Sheep Driver

We all know that non-pilot witness statements are to be taken with a very big pinch of salt, but the consistancy of the reports (initially very low flight, high revving engine noise before impact, high speed descent, ground-shaking thump on impact, total destruction of the aircraft with no recognisable pieces left - and one credible description of a 'looping roll' [barrel roll?]into the ground) plus the video evidence of the accident site make me think this accident does not fit the usual GA accident scenarios. I await the AAIB report with interest. This one looks 'different'.

SSD

On the contrary, non-pilots tend to describe what they saw. We pilots, I'm afraid, have a bad habit of trying to interpret what we saw and describing our interpretation of it - which can be much useful to an investigator.

G

[cessna-kevin]

i rest my case ,after the last post............i hope pprune changes for the better.

[A and C]

I have to agree with Genhis, more than a few years back when a Helicopter crashed at EGTB (fortunally the pilot escaped with only bruses) the best witness to the accident was the guy digging the footings for the new toilet block!

He had no aviation background and just described exactly what happend.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

On the contrary, non-pilots tend to describe what they saw. We pilots, I'm afraid, have a bad habit of trying to interpret what we saw and describing our interpretation of it - which can be much useful to an investigator.

If that's the case, this aeroplane approached low and fast, pulled up into a barell roll with nothing like enough height to complete, and dived into the ground near - vertically off the exit. According to a very credible non-pilot witness.

That may or may not have happened. I don't know. I wasn't there. If I had been, as an aerobatic pilot, I'm pretty sure I could positively confirm or deny that analysis. If it had spun in, I think I'd recognise that as well and be a credible witness for AAIB.

But in the past (not this accident, where the witness evidence seems remarkably consistant) eye-witness reports of accidents have all sorts of contradictory evidence - the aeroplane broke apart in the sky or it didn't, it was on fire before impact or wasn't. Often, the shock of seeing something as tragic confuses the memory. A post-flight fire becomes a pre-flight fire, it spun left, or it spun right, etc.

I have witnessed three fatal accidents, all at airshows, and in each case I was aware, long before the watching public, that the display aeroplane was doomed (it's to do with rate and angle of descent, speed, and possibility of recovery in the space available). In all 3 cases, as a pilot what happened was immediately obvious (one was a barrell roll into the ground, one was a loop into the ground, the other was a spin off a stall turn, with all the preceeding horrid loss of stability). In all instances, the evidence of non-pilot witnesses varies from pretty accurate to miles off.

Also, pilots tend to stop what they are doing and watch the entire passage of an aeroplane, so they tend to see the entire accident sequence. Non-pilot witneses tend only to look up if the sound is unusual - and might see the final few seconds and not what (vitally) lead up to the tragedy. The consistency of non-pilot evidence at Colwich might be becuase the aeroplane was said to be unusually low prior to the accident sequence, so more people looked up.

SSD

[NutLoose]

pilotmike
Only one thing seems astounding about this.

Whereas the CAA have simply done their JOB, you by contrast, appear to have specifically searched for this information which you ghoulishly report back to us here, apparently for your own gratification. After all, it is not exactly information that you would just accidentally stumble across, now, is it?

Actually Mike, he may have read the site after reading the post I put on this thread ( Link below),

I looked when the Pilots name was announced as I had a gut feeling his address would be present (which it was)and posted that his address was on the site and that it may be a good idea for the CAA to remove it on the hope that someone from the CAA may have read this thread and concurred it would of been a good Idea.
After all the press visit here and the last thing his poor family need is a load of press on their doorstep at this moment in time,I did not post a link to the site or mention it's name for that very reason, but as It is generally known in the indusrty, he may have looked after I mentioned it and been appalled at seeing the CAA's rather uncaring response. To simply of removed the address or even to have taken the page down temporarily would have shown some tact for a short perid, especially as the other occupants had not been identified at the time, If I unintentionally through my post caused some distress I apologise, but it was done for all the best reasons at this time of extreme sadness.

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...rdshire-3.html

[vabsie]

What a stupid comment by cessna-kevin below:

"how many people really mean "my thoughts go out to the family" or waffle on about the incident without knowing the facts?"

Of course people's thought's go out to those affected?! In fact, it's probably the first thing most people think!