Night VFR and filing flight plans in the UK/Europe

[Fuji Abound]

wrinklybird

To join in the debate, the issue with your proposal is the French sector. The CIs sector has already been dealt with in the above.

I believe it is still the case that France permits night VFR without an IR, but with a night rating. However in certain areas there are defined corridors in which you must conduct the flight at night which are set out on the SIA charts and described in the Complément aux cartes aéronautiques.

Obviously you are not permitted to enter the airways including those that are not class A without an IR.

[BackPacker]

Well, to be honest, with those kinds of flightplans, which move from VFR to IFR, but where VFR and IFR means different things across a FIR boundary (particularly NVFR which is IFR in the UK), I would just phone up my favourite flight briefing center and tell them what I want. As long as there's something in the system, accepted by the system you should generally be alright. Or, you have someone else to blame it on.

You'll probably find that if you ask this specific question (a NVFR flight in the French FIR, becoming an IFR flight in the UK FIR, but OCAS) to five different people, you'll get six different answers. Even if those people are professionals who do this on a daily basis.

Can you even legally get to Jersey at night without an IR? AFAIK Jersey sits in class A airspace for which you get an SVFR clearance. But can you get that at night?

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Can you even legally get to Jersey at night without an IR? AFAIK Jersey sits in class A airspace for which you get an SVFR clearance. But can you get that at night?

You can still get SVFR in a Zone (just like you would with the IMC)

To the question.

Prepare a flight-plan just the same as you would for a day VFR flight

then,

1 - Replace the 'V' in flight rules with a 'Z' (this says you will VFR then IFR)
2 - In the route section just after the way-point for FIR boundary point add 'IFR'.

You now have a flight plan you can fly (VFR) in France and the French and Jersey controllers are happy because you have specified you will fly IFR from the Jersey zone boundary.

[Fuji Abound]

Backpacker

That aspect is well covered.

Just enter Z in box 8 and indicate in box 15 where the rules will change. (You can do it the other way around if needs be).

You can thus simply depart VFR and when you get back to Blighty change to IFR.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

.. .. .. and what evidence do you have for all these accidents to night VFR pilots? Plenty do night ratings without an IMC or IR and there are very few problems.

We do seem to have become a society obsessed with creating rules to prevent people doing certain things rather than assessing whether the EVIDENCE suggests we require those rules in the first place.

Pace - I appreciate you are back on your hobby horse, much as am I, but I do think you have to demonstrate why certain things may not be a good idea. Rather like the IMC rating even if there have been a couple of accidents involving pilots with the rating that does not represent a case in itself that the evidence is the rating is unsafe. Things that have worked fine for the last forty odd years are probably just fine - if it airt broke, why you want to fix it??

[172driver]

wrinklybird

I would file a Z flight plan (i.e. start VFR, then IFR) and specify the changeover point as the FIR boundary, possibly putting SVFR in the remarks section too.

Someone will be along in a second to shoot me down in flames.....

[Fuji Abound]

CAP 694 requires "I" to be entered where the flight will be conducted under SVFR with the point of change and flight rules indicated in box 15.

As far as I was aware France does not "recognise" IFR in VMC - in other words to be IFR in France regardless of the met. conditions the Commander must hold an IR. Consequently presumably a flight at night by a pilot without an IR can only be SVFR as can a flight within the CICZ so also presumably a flight departing after dark in France for the CIs would need to file "I" for the whole sector, indicating in box 15 that the flight will be conducted under SVFR.

[172driver]

Fuji, don't want to be controversial here, but genuinely interested - I think your last post is wrong. 'I' stands for 'IFR' under ICAO rules and this is clearly not the case here if departing France at night. While I don't know about any obscure French rules, in my understanding this would simply be a VFR flight conducted at night. Nothing to do with SVFR. IMHO it's a 'Z' flight plan (both our earlier posts crossed each other).

[IO540]

I know Fuji and 172 know this stuff so with

As far as I was aware France does not "recognise" IFR in VMC - in other words to be IFR in France regardless of the met. conditions the Commander must hold an IR

we may have wires crossed, but this statement is true everywhere in the world except - AFAIK - the UK where IFR in VMC is possible on a plain PPL.

The other "problem" with filing an IFR flight plan is that, strictly speaking, it is supposed to be sent to Eurocontrol (IFPS), and IFPS will spit it out if the route is not a valid airway route - for any of 10,000 different reasons.

It so happens that IFPS tends (nowadays) to not challenge IFR flight plans which lie entirely outside CAS, but it will still chuck them out for all sorts of reasons... like you are going to / from an airport which has no instrument approaches (in some countries).

So if I was going VFR (basically, a plain PPL) I would avoid filing IFR flight plans.

[Fuji Abound]

172

Yes, I agree, and of course CAP 694 only applies to the UK.

I have never filed night IFR out of France other than as IFR traffic but I recall some one on here a while back saying their night VFR flight plan out of France was rejected on the basis they could not file night VFR. Hence the conundrum.

Either the French will accept V in Box 8, with boxed 15 noted to indicate SVFR is required, or it is I in box 8 with the same note in box 15 on the basis that I will prevent the plan being rejected - the point of course being that box 8 in itself does not cater for SVFR.

IO540

.. .. .. and yes, I also agree, I in box 8 might cause you a few other problems as well, although in the case of L2K at least you would make the FIR before the airway unless you had something very hot .

[Fuji Abound]

Well I am still not sure of the correct answer but it is an intriguing question so I 'phoned my mate in the Tower in Lille. After a few 'phone calls I am not certain he knew the answer. He was kind enough to say he had never been asked before! Anyway the view appeared to be box 8 should record "I" and box 15 SVFR. From his point of view no problem with a SVFR departure subject as always to traffic and met conditions being better than SVFR minima.

I am still not sure it is the right answer (someone will be along to correct me no doubt) but I suppose it doesnt really matter, if it should be V and you file I with the note in box 15 they will soon change it!

I will have a read of the French AIP when I have a moment.

Someone must have tried it out of L2K recently?

[mm_flynn]

You need to file it like this -

-(FPL-GBLAG-ZG
-1BE36/L-S/S
-LFPN1000
-N0170F100 DCT LUSIT IFR DCT
-EGJJ0110
-RMK/IFPS RTE AMDT ACPT DOF/090113
-E/0619 P/1
)

Results
NO ERRORS


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A night VFR flightplan from France to the UK (inc. CI) will be rejected because the French know that VFR isn't allowed in the UK - nothing to do with France.

A PPL without an IR (or with only an IMC) can not legally file and fly IFR outside the UK.

[172driver]

Hmmm, Fuji, this sort of makes sense, as you are conducting the flight under VFR - it's only the UK regs bit that possibly throw a spanner in the works.

IO, out of interest, do you happen to know if VFR FPLs filed via Homebriefing go to Eurocontrol?

[172driver]

Lots of crossed posts here today

So, basically, we are back to the Z FPL, with a change to IFR at the FIR boundary, correct?

[BackPacker]

So, basically, we are back to the Z FPL, with a change to IFR at the FIR boundary, correct?

That would indeed be correct for a night flight from the French mainland to the UK mainland.

What I still don't quite understand if this is also applicable for a night flight to Jersey, and whether this is legal for someone with just an NQ or IMC, but not an IR.

Or, in other words, does a NSVFR (Night Special VFR) clearance exist in the UK? Because if you can't fly SVFR at night within UK airspace (just as you cannot fly VFR at night within UK airspace) you've got to fly IFR. But this is class A airspace where you're not allowed to fly IFR unless you hold an IR.

[mm_flynn]

Where do you get the 'No Night SVFR in the UK' from??

This is what happens with every PPL night flight into a class D airport.

Equally, I am sure SVFR is available at night in the Heathrow Zone - which you can fly in with a PPL under SVFR (which probably should be thought of a special IFR).

[Fuji Abound]

Well I also asked Home Briefing and they advised "V" was the correct filing - as you suggested 172, or Z if crossing the FIR for onward IFR. I explained what Lille had told me to which they said ah yes, France may have their own rules!

On balance the more I think about it Z makes sense with a note of the point of change.

But this is class A airspace where you're not allowed to fly IFR unless you hold an IR.

I think you may be confusing a ATCZ with an airway.

There is no night VFR in the UK.

However you can fly IFR in class G without an IR or IMCr if you meet the met conditions. Filing IFR says nothing about the met conditions, only that you will comply with instrument flight RULES.

You cant fly in class D or class A control zones under IFR (regardless of the met conditions) unless you have an IR or IMCr.

Since you cant fly at night in the UK under VFR for a "vanilla" PPL to operate in class D or a class A CZ the remaining option is to file SVFR. That is how night training works out of say Bournemouth the majority of the time.

You are correct, you cant fly in an airway without an IR in the UK whether it is day or night.

In France you cant file IFR unless you have an IR. However in France you can fly at night under SVFR without an IR.

[172driver]

Fuji, my original suggestion was actually a Z FPL, but got swayed by your reasoning

Both make sense in as far as the flight flies under VFR. Now legally, this doesn't work in the UK at night. Now, if we file Z, with a named FIR boundary crossing point as mm_flynn has done in his example, we keep, I think, everyone happy: the French, as we have filed VFR in their airspace and the Brits, as now, at the FIR boundary, tataaaaa, we have converted to an IFR flight. As far as I can see this, the SVFR bit only comes into play a we want to go into CAS (in the OP's posters query, the CI).

[savile]

Careful

Slightly off the legalities of planning, but since the Channel Islands keeps popping up in this thread please be sure you can cope with actual night flight over the channel. Even between the islands you need to be practically capable of flying on instruments.

[Spitoon]

Originally Posted by wrinklybird

Please, I don't need and patronising or derogatory comments such as "rules are rules" from Spitoon - we all have to learn at some time.

Hey, wrinkly, I can do patronising and derogatory and heaven knows I do sometimes - but that wasn't my aim this time.

The point I was trying to make was that we each may have views about whether VFR at night is a good thing, or SVFR or IFR without an IR...and so on, but the rules we have in the legislation in the UK permits some things and proscribes others. The situation that was under discussion was possible and legitimate simply because the current legislation deems it so. Whether the outcome is good, bad or irrelevant is anther thing. My own view, FWIW, is that having rules that enable visual flight at night is good. That those rules are subject to criteria determined by pilot qualification, visibility, class of airspace, aircraft equipment and, sometimes, the disposition of the controller, is far too complex and causes great confusion.

[HershamBoys]

I suggest that when outbound from airfields in the CI Zone after dark, you file an IFR plan, and then in the remarks put "Request SVFR in CI Zone". This has done the trick in the past.