Night VFR and filing flight plans in the UK/Europe

[IO540]

IO, out of interest, do you happen to know if VFR FPLs filed via Homebriefing go to Eurocontrol?

No, IFPS (Eurocontrol) refuse to process V flight plans.

Try this with their validation website. It chucks them out.

As to what Homebriefing.com actually do with these, well that is a good question I have tried to find out, and on the rare occassions that I got a meaningful reply, it was one of

- we send them to the departure aerodrome

- we send them to departure, destination

- we send them to departure, destination, and every area FIS in which you have specified a waypoint

and maybe one or two others

The first one appears useless but is probably the correct procedure! The problem is what if the departure ARO is unmanned.... Actually Homebriefing have lost several of my VFR flight plans, but I have not tested it much (for VFR) in recent years.

The way VFR FPs are meant to be addressed is as per the last one, I think, (and that is what the pilot should be doing if he is using AFPEX, although I would delete the words in which you have specified a waypoint) but normally the responsibility for addressing is on the departure ARO.

I never quite understood who is supposed to be doing what in the case of a departure from some farm strip.

[172driver]

Interesting. I've used them around Europe (and, IRC once or twice in Africa) and the FPL always was where it was supposed to be. That, btw, includes non-towered fields where, upon calling up the regional App or Rdr/Info frequency they have - so far - never been surprised by my call


PS: I now most likely have awakened Mr. Murphy....

[IO540]

They once told me they have the old FP addressing manual as a computer database, and for every ICAO code (dep, dest) they have the addresses of where to send the FP to. This was apparently what went wrong on the ones they lost for me, but they apparently fixed it afterwards.

However, my recent experience is pretty limited because since early 06 nearly all my foreign flights have been IFR and thus filed via IFPS. I have not filed more than several VFR FPs in total since then, and TBH I don't really miss the perpetual uncertainty of long VFR trips

I cannot really help with the main thrust of this thread since I very rarely fly at night (for obvious single engine risk management reasons).

[LH2]

NVFR France-UK

Just one comment to add on the advice above: In France, night VFR is only permitted along certain predefined routes, which appear in the AIP and in the "Guide VFR". Unfortunately my copy is in the car at the moment, so I can't check whether there is a suitable night route back to the UK. Other than that, certain other restrictions apply--the AIP refers.

That's the theory anyway. In practise you are likely to be allowed to route as convenient, but speak to the local tower or better yet, phone the FIS controller along your route before you depart.

Other than that, a word of caution FWIW. Crossing a "non-glideable" expanse of water at night, single engine, single or no FADEC, in mid-winter puts your chances of survival at zero, should there be a mishap. I'm not very keen on flying over water at night, and I simply do not do it with passengers. Perhaps a first light departure might be a possibility instead?

[bookworm]

In France, night VFR is only permitted along certain predefined routes, which appear in the AIP and in the "Guide VFR".

That's not what the AIP says.

ENR 1.2.3 f) Routes, minimum level
Except for take-off or landing operations and associated maneuvers, a
night VFR flight shall be carried out:
- on published routes,
- if there is no route, at a minimum height of 450 m (1500 feet) above
the highest obstacle in a 8 km radius around the estimated aircraft
position. This height is 600 m (2000 ft) for areas where the relief altitu-
de is more than 1500 m (5000 ft),

but combined with this:

ENR 1.2.3 b) For a cross-country flight
- keep visual reference to the ground or water,
- ceiling equal or more than 450 m (1500 feet) above the planned
cruising level,
- visibility equal or more than 8 km between departure, destination
and possible alternate aerodromes.

you probably need a minimum cloud ceiling of at least 3500 ft.

[cvlux]

I never quite understood who is supposed to be doing what in the case of a departure from some farm strip.

In this case you can send it to the parent unit (EGLL for south england).

[LH2]

Bookworm,

you are right, of course. Thanks for the correction.

[bookworm]

Well, I'm right according to the AIP. What one can do in practice is often different, and I've never flown night VFR in France either on or off designated routes.

[White Hart]

"In this case you can send it to the parent unit (EGLL for south england)."

for now - but not for much longer. About 17 days left, and counting..

[cvlux]

No more parent unit?
How it will be in 17 days?

[White Hart]

All tasks/responsibilities currently handled and provided by Heathrow FBU are planned to be transferred to CACC Swanwick on 01Feb. There should be a Notam issued shortly to confirm this. Afpex will then be your replacement means of transmitting your flight plan.

In-house politics are finished; the Central Union representation capitulated; the empire builders now have to prove that their system will meet your needs. Why there is so much secrecy over this, fcuk only knows. You people all need to know what's going on, so that you can charge up your laptop batteries, get mobile phones with lots of credit and good network coverage, and read up on everything to do with filing FPLs and doing all the messaging work yourselves.

Time for the Heathrow FBU to move on to pastures anew - lets see where the wind takes us.

and, FWIW, its been a pleasure serving you all over the years.

I won't say 'goodbye', ... just TTFN.

[IO540]

get mobile phones with lots of credit and good network coverage, and read up on everything to do with filing FPLs and doing all the messaging work yourselves

One needs a little more than "lots of credit" because AFPEX forces a 5MB java application download at every startup.

If NATS fixes that, it would be pretty good. In the meantime, we use Homebriefing for flight plan filing while on the move.

I think it's fair to say that every modern-minded GA pilot has been asking for online flight plan filing for as long as I or anybody I know can remember, so if it took some difficult politics inside NATS to bring this about then perhaps that was a good thing. AFPEX does work, pretty well. It could be better, of course.

[LH2]

One needs a little more than "lots of credit" because AFPEX forces a 5MB java application download at every startup.

Just a question, what's wrong with simply (voice) phoning up some airport and filing your flight plan over the telephone? That's what I do about 50% of the time and it works fine for me, including across borders (filed a flight plan once from Austria to Germany by phoning Marseille ATS, as well as flight plans entirely in French airspace phoned in via Girona. Never a problem.)

The two filing systems I have experience with, France and Spain's, work out the routing by themselves and seem to work well. Presumably some marginal cases might need adding an address manually (which of course can be done) but I haven't come across it yet.

So my two questions:

1) Is it possible in the UK to phone any random ATS unit and file a flight plan?

2) Doesn't the AFPEX application sort out the FPL AFTN routing automatically, regardless of whether the origin, destination or alternate airfields are in the AFTN or not?

[IO540]

LH2

I think the reason you are apparently so much more able to get around the more distant European quirks is because you can speak more than English. The more south one goes, the more this makes a difference. I have lost count of how many "international" airports I have phoned up, and totally failed to get through to anybody who could (or wanted to) help.

1) Is it possible in the UK to phone any random ATS unit and file a flight plan?

I don't think so.

In practice your tower of departure will take a written FP and I don't see this ever changing - not least because so many pilots operate totally outside any system and expect to do weather+FP via the tower office.

By phone, they usually don't like doing it except for the locals and then only if not busy.

2) Doesn't the AFPEX application sort out the FPL AFTN routing automatically, regardless of whether the origin, destination or alternate airfields are in the AFTN or not?

For IFR, yes, it just goes to the two IFPS addresses.

For VFR, it offers some assistance but you need to use your head a bit.

But you cannot get access unless you are UK resident. It's a long process which takes several months. I think they check if you knew Kim Philby

BTW, AFPEX was created primarily for airfields, and today that is what they use. For years, they used to fax the flight plans (handed to them at the tower) to Heathrow, whose staff were reportedly stuffing c. 3000 flight plans per month, nearly all VFR, into the AFTN. That facility is being closed. It is utterly amazing how long it lasted, in today's technological age. Unions!

[172driver]

IMHO, the best system out there is Homebriefing. It works.

[IO540]

HB is excellent. You get SMS/email notifications of FP acceptance/rejection which is most useful in the real scenario: the pilot is heading to depart and doesn't have a PC in front of him.

OTOH, AFPEX gives you an instant (few secs) acc/rej for IFR FPs. HB can take a few mins, which is fine.

I think one should get both of these. They both have their value.

If AFPEX got rid of the 5MB java download (which would cost me £50 on Vodafone PAYG) and implemented an email forwarding of any messages popping into the AFPEX message box, it would be the dog's b******s. One can pick up text emails on any half decent mobile phone, Blackberry, etc. It would cost them precisely nothing.

[bookworm]

While it's not as handy as SMS, the AFPEx helpdesk is happy to check for slots and delay/change FPLs by phone.

[IO540]

Indeed, and actually my experience of the Afpex telephone service is a lot better than my experience of the HB telephone service.

Sometimes HB have just one man there and if he is on the phone, you get a long wait. I remember blowing a £100 PAYG credit in 2007, trying to get through to them, listening to their switchboard music. It was a pretty vital scenario but it is only when the sh*t hits the fan that one will need to phone these services in the first place. This is unusual but....

Mind you, that is with a very tiny sample size

When I have free internet on my own laptop then I use Afpex, and when I am on GPRS/3G I use HB at Euro 4/flight plan.

I suggested Afpex should implement copying of messages to email (a preconfigured email address) because it would cost them zilch, whereas sending them via SMS (as HB do) would be complicated because they would need to set up a payments system (which NATS will never do because IMHO Afpex was driven wholly by the FBU staffing cost savings, not by any desire to deliver GA pilot services).

BTW, somebody did develop a hack for the Afpex java download, by editing the header on the locally stored java application file so it doesn't download every time, but this will still fail if Afpex change the application date/time stamp, and you will get the £50 bill to find out

If on 3G, unless you are on an inclusive data contract, it would be cheaper to run Afpex by accessing your home PC over PC/Anywhere or Terminal Services

[LH2]

IO,

speak more than English. The more south one goes, the more this makes a difference.

Now that you mention it, I suppose it makes sense. Never thought about it before

Funnily enough, it works both ways--an English-speaking pilot turns out to be very valuable down South

Thanks for the other info re. flight plans & AFPEX. I am more or less aware how AFPEX works and I could technically apply for a login, but I just don't seem to have a need. When you say several months, do you mean literally?

[heinke]

LH,

It takes about a week or so to get your account on AFPEx.

IO540,

From Fax to internet was the priority. Email and SMS are next on the agenda. As Take That said, 'have a little patience'.