Night VFR and filing flight plans in the UK/Europe

[rmdr2]

A question for you NVFR pilots

I have done a fair bit of NVFR, almost all of which has been in the USA. Over there, you just get in and go and its treated identically to a standard VFR flight.

I was recently caught out when filing a VFR flight plan when attempting to fly back from the channel isles. I completed the flight plan as a standard VFR flight. After submitting the flight plan, i promptly received a phone call telling me to re-submit it as an IFR flight plan with a special request for an SVFR departure.

I found this very confusing, not having done much NVFR flying in the UK, and it raised a whole load of questions for me... I am hoping that someone out there might be able to shed some light on the matter...

1) As a non-IR pilot, am I even allowed to file an IFR flight plan?

2) Do I always need to file an IFR flight plan when departing from airfields in the UK (towered and non-towered)

3) What are the implications of filing an IFR flight plan in terms of control of the flight. I.e. after leaving the airfileld's controlled airspace, do I resume my own navigation (i.e. after formally receiving the RT "resume own navigation" from the tower), or am I required to be talking to someone as per an IFR flight (i.e. is some-one vectoring me to my destination)

4) Do I need to file the flight plan with all my flight levels, turning points, reporting points etc?

5) Are there on-line examples of IFR flight plans for NVFR flights?

6) Are the answers to all the above questions the same for flights into and around Europe?

Its probably inexperience with NVFR flying this side of the pond, but I would rather ask the questions now than be ill-prepared for a flight.

Thanks!!

[Humaround]

All Night flying has to be IFR in the UK.

Anyone can file an IFR flight plan.

You don't have have an IR or IMCR to fly IFR in VMC

You don't HAVE to file a FP on any flight within the UK, though MAY file one for any flight, from any airfield.

Answers to te other questions will be along in amoment - I've already said too much.

[BackPacker]

Just to add that this IFR-at-night-without-an-IR thing is totally unique to the UK. In the rest of Europe, NVFR is just that. It requires the NVFR rating, VMC conditions and, depending on the country, a flight plan might be required.

International night flight to/from the UK is a flight plan nightmare as it requires a change from IFR to VFR rules as you cross the border.

Oh, and the Netherlands bans NVFR altogether. At night, you can only file and fly IFR, which requires an IFR-capable plane and an IR.

[Whopity]

You don't have have an IR or IMCR to fly IFR in VMC

Quite true if you hold a UK Licence but if its a UK JAA Licence then its not true:
ANO Schedule 8 Section 2 says:

Section 2 – JAR–FCL Licences
(2) The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.

and JAR-FCL 1.175 says:

JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which
an IR(A) is required
(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall
not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a
pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating
(IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.

There is however a get out clause:

(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances,

This allows you to file IFR so from the Chanel Isles to the UK submit your flight plan IFR and insert in Item 18 Remarks, must remain in sight of the surface. That tells ATC you cannot fly in IMC. You must of course have a night qualification.

[mm_flynn]

The broad answer to your question has been given, but for the record answers on each point. All answers apply only to flight within the UK(and CI) -

1) As a non-IR pilot, am I even allowed to file an IFR flight plan?

Yes you are, but you wouldn't do anything different day or night (i.e. if you wouldn't file one during the day for VFR then no need at night)

2) Do I always need to file an IFR flight plan when departing from airfields in the UK (towered and non-towered)

You generally are only required to file a flight plan if crossing an international FIR.

3) What are the implications of filing an IFR flight plan in terms of control of the flight. I.e. after leaving the airfield's controlled airspace, do I resume my own navigation (i.e. after formally receiving the RT "resume own navigation" from the tower), or am I required to be talking to someone as per an IFR flight (i.e. is some-one vectoring me to my destination)

If your flight plan is clearly OCAS (as it must be without an IR, except for the SVFR part in and out of any control zones) or you put a clue in the remarks (like must remain in sight of surface) it will feel just like a VFR flight (no SIDs/STARs, direct to RNAV points, vectors, etc.) From a pilot perspective the 'night as IFR UK style' type flying has minimal significant operational differences from VFR (quadrantials mandatory above TA vs recommended, and no access to Class D control areas - as compared to zones).

4) Do I need to file the flight plan with all my flight levels, turning points, reporting points etc?

File it like a VFR plan except tick I,Z,Y vs V, give a clue in the remarks and an altitude vs VFR.

5) Are there on-line examples of IFR flight plans for NVFR flights?

Don't know

6) Are the answers to all the above questions the same for flights into and around Europe?

Absolutely not. Everywhere else that says night flight must be conducted under IFR mean under real IFR (i.e. with an IFR clearance, an IR rating, flying with distinctly different procedures than VFR). Different countries also have specific night VFR rules which may have training requirements, sign off requirements, or higher visibility requirements.

[rmdr2]

It's never simple!!!

[pelagic]

"or you put a clue in the remarks (like must remain in sight of surface)"

never seen that written on any FPL in nearly 20 years. Also, irrespective of any info regarding what ratings a pilot may or may not hold, our instruction is not to accept a VFR FPL for submission for a flight within the UK once official 'night' is reached (except SVFR).

Had this scenario just the other night - helicopter, EGLL to Ashford in Kent at 8pm. Its dark, so a request to book out SVFR was refused, and the pilot was asked to file a FPL (SVFR+IFR or IFR all the way). Heard nothing more until I went upstairs only to see the helicopter lift off with a SVFR clearance 'to leave the Control Zone'.

So, from a flight planning POV, its as confusing as it is for the pilots. And as for pilots declaring to us that they have Military Night Ratings, NV etc etc.....

[mm_flynn]

Out of curiosity, If one is going at night from Southampton to Jersey and files IFR N175 F100 DCT KATHY DCT ORTAC DCT what tells you not to climb the flight into the Southampton control area?

IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues.

[pelagic]

"IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues."

agreed. I've often wondered as to how/why flights like the one I commented on above actually get the go-ahead when the Rules state that VFR at night is not allowed. Who gives the OK, and whose ars* would get kicked if anything happened to the flight after it had left 'the Control Zone' ? (At least it won't be mine - I hope!)

Personally, I'd like an explanation as to why the advice/info that I/we have dispensed to the operator is 'overridden' - where's a Thames/SVFR Controller when you need one??

[Spitoon]

Originally Posted by pelagic

agreed. I've often wondered as to how/why flights like the one I commented on above actually get the go-ahead when the Rules state that VFR at night is not allowed. Who gives the OK, and whose ars* would get kicked if anything happened to the flight after it had left 'the Control Zone' ?

The flight that you mentioned gets the go ahead because the rules say it's OK. You may agree or disagree with the rules - but the rules is the rules. The reason it's OK is because the rules say the aircraft can't fly VFR, and it's not flying VFR - by definition, it's flying under SVFR.

And after it leaves the zone I presume it would fly IFR whilst in class G airspace. What do you have in mind going wrong with that?

pelagic, I don't know what your background is but at this level flight rules are fairly straightforward. It sounds like there should be plenty of people you could call on to run through the way it works.

[pelagic]

"by definition, it's flying under SVFR"

erm, I thought I'd said that.

Our instructions state that, when leaving LL at night, you can fly SVFR within the Zone. If you intend to fly beyond the Zone boundary, then its IFR at night. And from a flight planning perspective - ie when a pilot at LL calls the FBU to book out SVFR to a destination beyound the Zone boundary - for us, that means requesting the filing of an IFR flightplan for the portion of the journey outside the Zone.

I think thats 'fairly straightforward'

[Islander2]

I think thats 'fairly straightforward'

Fairly straightforward, maybe, but more importantly is it correct?

Its dark, so a request to book out SVFR was refused, and the pilot was asked to file a FPL (SVFR+IFR or IFR all the way).

when a pilot at LL calls the FBU to book out SVFR to a destination beyound the Zone boundary - for us, that means requesting the filing of an IFR flightplan for the portion of the journey outside the Zone.

The issue is perhaps why you believe the filing of a flight plan to be necessary at all for the portion of the journey outside the zone? And for the portion of the flight involving departure to the zone boundary, normal practice would require only an Abbreviated Flight Plan by telephone in accordance with AIP ENR 1.10. Appreciate LL might just have different rules, but it's difficult to see what 'its dark' has to do with those. In any event, the AIP EGLL 2.22 entry appears to suggests otherwise:

Pilots who wish to leave Heathrow on a Special VFR clearance should pass brief details of their flight to the Flight Briefing Unit, either in
person or by telephone [phone], and not to ATC by RTF.

[Whopity]

"IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues."

No its a very simple way to to make people fly at a safe altitude and use a quadrantal level to reduce the likelihood of hitting the ground or another aircraft.

Unfortunately if you file IFR, ATC have no way of knowing that you are not qualified to fly in IMC, hence the suggestion of a Remark to advise them.

If you fly from a military airfield at night they may clear you VFR because they don't necessarily understand the ANO!

[Spitoon]

pelagic, what you appear to be saying is that the UK law says a pilot cannot fly VFR at night and so it is wrong that an aircraft departs the LL zone under a SVFR clearance. Have understood your point?

If so, what I am saying is that SVFR is not VFR - so the pilot is following the rule by not flying VFR at night. In the LL zone the rules say that an aircraft can request a SFR clearance - this is not the same as a VFR clearance - which means that it can fly without complying with all of the IFR. Still all OK because the rules permit it.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Whopity

No its a very simple way to to make people fly at a safe altitude and use a quadrantal level to reduce the likelihood of hitting the ground or another aircraft.

Except for the fact that in the UK, for a PPL (who is VFR only, except allowed to fly 'IFR' at night) there is almost no operational difference from VFR. IFR in this case (more than 3km viz, clear of clouds and in sight of surface) doesn't have a minimum altitude requirement and doesn't require flight at quadrantals below the TA (I.e. where our intrepid PPL will in all likelihood fly and where all collisions happen - except for a few cases of IFR/IFR collision when under positive control), doesn't require following published routes (and in general trying will put you into a control area).

The only logic can be a perception that PPLs at night in a control area (as compared to a zone) are dangerous - and that contention is absurd.

[BEagle]

The differences in national airspace rules will not be standardised when EASA part-FCL hits the streets, so it will be interesting to see how much Colognic Irritation from the €urocrats affects the PPL with Night Rating (no longer to be 'night qualification....').

Another reason why my Class 2 IR proposal submitted to part-FCL's FCL.008 group now includes the words:

Privileges:

1.0 To fly IMC/IFR in EC airspace where so permitted under national law.

1.1 To navigate the aircraft by sole reference to instruments under circumstances which require mandatory compliance with defined routes.

1.2 To fly instrument approach procedures for which pilots have logbook endorsements to instrument approach minima +200ft for precision approach and +250ft for non-precision approach.

The 'where so permitted under national law' is an important choice of words as it is identical to the agreement for medical declarations for their ridiculous sub-ICAO one-size-fits-no-one LPL proposals.

[Pace]

If so, what I am saying is that SVFR is not VFR - so the pilot is following the rule by not flying VFR at night. In the LL zone the rules say that an aircraft can request a SFR clearance - this is not the same as a VFR clearance - which means that it can fly without complying with all of the IFR. Still all OK because the rules permit i

The whole thing is absurd. To file IFR means to fly to instrument flight rules. To have no reasonable instrument training means you cannot fly to instrument flight rules.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

The night rating should be included in the IMCR as there are too many hazards to a totally non trained PPL flying in what is effectively IMC or flying to set levels required by IFR could infact put the aircraft in IMC.

There are some really silly regulations in aviation and this is one roll on an obtainable IR for PPLs and the safety such a rating could bring.

IMO it should be PPL then IMCR including night or having night as an addon to the IMCR not PPL then night then IMCR.

Pace

[IO540]

I have always thought that night flying should require an instrument qualification, because if done on a properly dark night it is flying in IMC in all but name, and requires full instrument skills.

But this all comes from ICAO, AFAIK. Rationally, IMHO, one would not allow night flight without an IR of some sort.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Pace

The whole thing is absurd. To file IFR means to fly to instrument flight rules. To have no reasonable instrument training means you cannot fly to instrument flight rules.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

While I respect the opinions that night flight should be conducted by Instrument Qualified pilots, the rules in general allow PPLs to have night ratings and to fly without instrument training. Countries like Ireland that disagree and impose a requirement to operate IFR at night are being more conservative than ICAO, but at least internally consistent. It is only the UK that takes the absurd/bonkers/... position that you must be IFR and then defines IFR and PPL privileges (in this context) in a way that makes IFR=VFR so removing any safety value of the requirement to operate IFR.

[wrinklybird]

Night Flight Plan from France to the Channel Islands

I was delighted to find this thread as I was suffering the same confusions as rmdr2 and hoped to get a confident reply from someone. I am a PPL of 7 years and have IMC and recently the night rating. Fortunately I think that is the correct order to acquire the qualifications but unfortunately I am now more confused about how to file a FP than I was before.

I am trying to plan a treat at the end of Jan 09 and want to spend the day in France and then fly back to Jersey at night. Assuming that the conditions are VFR but, of course it will be at night, can anyone give me a clear answer on what I should put on the FP? Please, I don't need and patronising or derogatory comments such as "rules are rules" from Spitoon - we all have to learn at some time.