Return to reciprocal runway advised in emergency ?
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CC
Fair point.
If the wind was that strong, that would be another reason to consider landing ahead if feasible - VSo = 49knots - 25 = 24 knots touchdown speed - much less energy to lose (or absorb if the aircraft hits something.)
As you say, it's all about judgment on the day.
Fair point.
If the wind was that strong, that would be another reason to consider landing ahead if feasible - VSo = 49knots - 25 = 24 knots touchdown speed - much less energy to lose (or absorb if the aircraft hits something.)
As you say, it's all about judgment on the day.
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A 360 turn back onto finals isn't the turnback as I was taught because it's a glide circuit!
A turnback, as Beagle agrees, is a landing on the airfield but not necessarily on the same runway as the one you departed from.
I would much rather land back into wind and if any option was available to do so, I would take it. A turnback is for situations when the other options look very poor.
Left hand circuit at Dundee, anyone?
A turnback, as Beagle agrees, is a landing on the airfield but not necessarily on the same runway as the one you departed from.
I would much rather land back into wind and if any option was available to do so, I would take it. A turnback is for situations when the other options look very poor.
Left hand circuit at Dundee, anyone?
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All very well ShyTorque if your airport has multiple runways, unfortunately in alot of scenarios this isn't the case.
I just did a little experiment using RANT XL
All tracks show an aircraft climbing at 75kts, and had the engine failure 1 minute 5 seconds after the upwind end of the runway.
Yellow line wind = 270/25
Red line wind = 270/05
Cyan line wind = 090/05
As we can see any kind of headwind really blows you round the turn. Would I turn back in any of these situations? No way.
Final 3 Greens, I totally agree, landing ahead with a 25kt headwind is more favourable, but I have known (as I'm sure we all have) the wind at circuit height to be considerably stronger than the surface wind.
End of the day you just have to make the best of a very bad situation, and if that means putting the plane on top some trees then so be it
I just did a little experiment using RANT XL
All tracks show an aircraft climbing at 75kts, and had the engine failure 1 minute 5 seconds after the upwind end of the runway.
Yellow line wind = 270/25
Red line wind = 270/05
Cyan line wind = 090/05
As we can see any kind of headwind really blows you round the turn. Would I turn back in any of these situations? No way.
Final 3 Greens, I totally agree, landing ahead with a 25kt headwind is more favourable, but I have known (as I'm sure we all have) the wind at circuit height to be considerably stronger than the surface wind.
End of the day you just have to make the best of a very bad situation, and if that means putting the plane on top some trees then so be it
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CC,
But what's the obsession with making a runway? The aim is to make the best of a bad job and get back to the airfield because there's nowhere else to go. If you land into wind you won't have the benefit of a runway either. We didn't have the benefit of a computer to simulate engine failure so we used to practice turnbacks for real; as I said, every month, as a requirement. We didn't fly them like automatons, we used to see different wind conditions, obviously including crosswinds from each side. As I said in a previous post, some attempts would have been more successful than others. In some conditions on some runways I would brief that a turnback wasn't a viable option. But what to do if your only available runway took you over the sea in the dark?
But what's the obsession with making a runway? The aim is to make the best of a bad job and get back to the airfield because there's nowhere else to go. If you land into wind you won't have the benefit of a runway either. We didn't have the benefit of a computer to simulate engine failure so we used to practice turnbacks for real; as I said, every month, as a requirement. We didn't fly them like automatons, we used to see different wind conditions, obviously including crosswinds from each side. As I said in a previous post, some attempts would have been more successful than others. In some conditions on some runways I would brief that a turnback wasn't a viable option. But what to do if your only available runway took you over the sea in the dark?
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No obsession ShyTorque, re-read the thread title, this is all about returning to the reciprocal runway is it not? I am merely discussing what was asked.
Making an arbitrary turn back in the hope that you land "somewhere near the airfield" to me is not an option either.
Personally my options would be this, Engine fails, maintain flying speed, pick a landing site within 30°, if there isn't one pick one within 60°, if there isn't one look 90°. If, and only if I had the height I'd think about turning back. If there still isn't one the I'll plough it on top of whatever is going to give me the softest landing, if that's a tree great, if it's someone's rooftop then great.
I Don't think you can use the "But what to do if your only available runway took you over the sea in the dark? as an analogy because I think that's a pretty obvious answer
Making an arbitrary turn back in the hope that you land "somewhere near the airfield" to me is not an option either.
Personally my options would be this, Engine fails, maintain flying speed, pick a landing site within 30°, if there isn't one pick one within 60°, if there isn't one look 90°. If, and only if I had the height I'd think about turning back. If there still isn't one the I'll plough it on top of whatever is going to give me the softest landing, if that's a tree great, if it's someone's rooftop then great.
I Don't think you can use the "But what to do if your only available runway took you over the sea in the dark? as an analogy because I think that's a pretty obvious answer
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Making an arbitrary turn back in the hope that you land "somewhere near the airfield" to me is not an option either.
It was, however, as both I and Beagle have mentioned, an RAF requirement that their QFIs regularly practiced doing so. It was NEVER an arbitrary turn, btw. Perhaps no point in discussing it further, but I would ask: How many times have you actually carried out a practice turnback?
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ShyTorque
Don't get defensive fella, it's a discussion isn't it? & a healthy one at that
I think it's great to practice it, and if you've had the opportunity to do so then great. To answer your question - never, because the airfield I instruct from is rather busy and it isn't allowed, I'd love to try it though.
The good thing about these discussions is that there is no right or wrong answer, not only is the situation a variable, but the pilot also
Don't get defensive fella, it's a discussion isn't it? & a healthy one at that
I think it's great to practice it, and if you've had the opportunity to do so then great. To answer your question - never, because the airfield I instruct from is rather busy and it isn't allowed, I'd love to try it though.
The good thing about these discussions is that there is no right or wrong answer, not only is the situation a variable, but the pilot also
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In gliding circles launch failures are regularly practiced and are used as part of currency checking/evaluating preparedeness for first solo. One of the options on practice aerotow launch failure will be to engineer a situation that'll require either a turn towards a landing area somewhere on the airfield or a landing on the recipricol of the takeoff direction. I think (might have changed) that in the USA part of the standard FAA (Gliding) test is a launch failure which requires a 180 back to land.
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CC, No, not defensive, but it's pointless to discuss further a manoeuvre that I and many others routinely practiced, when you claim it won't work.
Yet you say you have never flown the manoeuvre yourself because the airfield you instruct from is too busy. You have only ever flown from just one airfield?
Enjoy the further discussion.
Yet you say you have never flown the manoeuvre yourself because the airfield you instruct from is too busy. You have only ever flown from just one airfield?
Enjoy the further discussion.
I agree with everything you say, apart from the 360.
When I learned to navigate that added up to 360.
But then of course the World has changed a little in the last 50 yrs.
Blame Bill Gates.
The only thing to really remember is : Fly The Aeroplane. Right down to the ground, don't get distracted from this one fact, and remember that a glider pilot ALWAYS makes a power off forced landing, and they usually survive.
The only time I have had to make that decision is when the power failed as I tried to correct a downdraft on a glide approach to a short runway in a flapless aeroplane, so all Lifelines used up, couldn't ask the audience, couldn't ring a friend ( OK, I could have set it up better, hindsight is great ) the only choice was between two trees to the field beyond, so decided that it would be best to be lowest and slowest when the wings were torn off, so got down to thistle height just above the stall, actually got through OK and landed. Learned a lot, again, basically the engine will stop at the worst possible moment, and Fly The Aeroplane.
( always come in higher now, and with a trickle of power to encourage the engine !!! ) My sideslips are immaculate.
Cheers.
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Exsp33b1rd
What part of
did you have trouble understanding?
You do know what a "teardrop" is, oh sorry, that would be George flying the entry to the hold at Birdseed then.
Coffin Corner said : 180 + 90 + 90
When I learned to navigate that added up to 360.
When I learned to navigate that added up to 360.
As Ghengis said earlier, the best thing to do would be to fly a teardrop, so more like a 270 if you do it well
You do know what a "teardrop" is, oh sorry, that would be George flying the entry to the hold at Birdseed then.
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ShyTorque
Out of interest, did you ever fly in Malta?
The terrain is challenging to say the least, rocky, gullies, hills, no fields as such.
SOP for the Bulldogs of the AFM (Armed Forces of Malta) is to try and ditch in the event of engine failure over the islands.
I think a turnback to Luqa/downwind touchdown would be definitely worth considering, as the grassed areas around the runway or even a taxiway would increase the survival potential enormously compared to landing off airfield.
In that circumstance, a strong headwind would help to position the aircaft back over the field.
The aim is to make the best of a bad job and get back to the airfield because there's nowhere else to go.
The terrain is challenging to say the least, rocky, gullies, hills, no fields as such.
SOP for the Bulldogs of the AFM (Armed Forces of Malta) is to try and ditch in the event of engine failure over the islands.
I think a turnback to Luqa/downwind touchdown would be definitely worth considering, as the grassed areas around the runway or even a taxiway would increase the survival potential enormously compared to landing off airfield.
In that circumstance, a strong headwind would help to position the aircaft back over the field.
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Given that pretty decent flight simulators are widely available these days (even in educational institutions), I'm surprised there isn't a thesis published somewhere identifying the factors and issues.
Surely the "don't turn back" rule is initially intended to give low hours pilots (low hours in type, I mean) or low currency (in type) pilots a simple rule to follow with a decent chance of success in a very stressful situation.
We've all heard of people who've been badly hurt in a failed turn-back attempt. I've never heard of the equivalent in a land-ahead - though maybe I've not been listening hard enough.
Finally, and then I'll crawl back in my hole I promise, shouldn't glider pilots smugly comparing their every-day landings with a light aircraft forced landing really be considering for comparison a sudden and unexpected failure of theairbrakes to jammed full open? That's a much more reasonable comparison and I wonder how they'd cope
MB
Surely the "don't turn back" rule is initially intended to give low hours pilots (low hours in type, I mean) or low currency (in type) pilots a simple rule to follow with a decent chance of success in a very stressful situation.
We've all heard of people who've been badly hurt in a failed turn-back attempt. I've never heard of the equivalent in a land-ahead - though maybe I've not been listening hard enough.
Finally, and then I'll crawl back in my hole I promise, shouldn't glider pilots smugly comparing their every-day landings with a light aircraft forced landing really be considering for comparison a sudden and unexpected failure of theairbrakes to jammed full open? That's a much more reasonable comparison and I wonder how they'd cope
MB
Given that pretty decent flight simulators are widely available these days (even in educational institutions), I'm surprised there isn't a thesis published somewhere identifying the factors and issues.
Surely the "don't turn back" rule is initially intended to give low hours pilots (low hours in type, I mean) or low currency (in type) pilots a simple rule to follow with a decent chance of success in a very stressful situation.
We've all heard of people who've been badly hurt in a failed turn-back attempt. I've never heard of the equivalent in a land-ahead - though maybe I've not been listening hard enough.
Finally, and then I'll crawl back in my hole I promise, shouldn't glider pilots smugly comparing their every-day landings with a light aircraft forced landing really be considering for comparison a sudden and unexpected failure of theairbrakes to jammed full open? That's a much more reasonable comparison and I wonder how they'd cope
MB
Surely the "don't turn back" rule is initially intended to give low hours pilots (low hours in type, I mean) or low currency (in type) pilots a simple rule to follow with a decent chance of success in a very stressful situation.
We've all heard of people who've been badly hurt in a failed turn-back attempt. I've never heard of the equivalent in a land-ahead - though maybe I've not been listening hard enough.
Finally, and then I'll crawl back in my hole I promise, shouldn't glider pilots smugly comparing their every-day landings with a light aircraft forced landing really be considering for comparison a sudden and unexpected failure of theairbrakes to jammed full open? That's a much more reasonable comparison and I wonder how they'd cope
MB
I've been trying for years to pull together a bit of a research project on this - I think in about a year I might finally have pulled together the right people and resources and manage to publish it circa 2010.
G
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We've all heard of people who've been badly hurt in a failed turn-back attempt. I've never heard of the equivalent in a land-ahead - though maybe I've not been listening hard enough.
October 1992. I lost a very close friend at Queen's UAS, NI (he was the squadron boss and very experienced on type). Failed engine in his Bulldog, landed out in a farmer's field. Killed outright on impact with a stone wall hidden inside a hedge. Female student very seriously injured.
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I appreciate that most are warned not to turn back due to the fact that they are low hours and flying low performance aircraft however....
If you are flying a single turbine aircraft with an excess of power on departure and a very high rate of climb (so much so that you need to throttle back) then your problem could well be too much height to loose after 180 degree turnback.
As long as you stay proficient at the manouver and brief the min height for turnback in the event of power failure at the specific airport and after determining wind etc then can't see a problem.
Would need to be sure that there are no good options for a straight ahead landing though
If you are flying a single turbine aircraft with an excess of power on departure and a very high rate of climb (so much so that you need to throttle back) then your problem could well be too much height to loose after 180 degree turnback.
As long as you stay proficient at the manouver and brief the min height for turnback in the event of power failure at the specific airport and after determining wind etc then can't see a problem.
Would need to be sure that there are no good options for a straight ahead landing though
did you have trouble understanding?
Don't bother, I'm outta here.
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Somewhere in here I posted to "plan the flight and fly the plan". Today it was worth the effort!
I took off for a flight test of a recently repaired autopilot, in a Lake Amphibian. Wind 180 @ 7kt, so I used runway 18, full 6000 foot length. 200 feet up, and the gear had just retracted, the loud bang and clatter up and behind me, and the shaking engine pylon, told me this was going to be a very short flight. Pullng the power off helped. A quick teardrop (flying, not from eyes), gear and flap selected down really fast, and I was pointed back at runway 36, fast but nice touchdown halfway down the runway. I found I still had power to taxi, and the engine was now smooth again. When I parked, and got out, the reason was clear. The cowl latch had broken it's lock, and released, allowing the half cowl to open, and flop all over the place. Everyone was quite pleased that it did not rip off, and go out through a quite new propeller! It's amazing how much the flopping cowl made the whole pylon shake!
The farthest I got from the button of runway 18 was about 7000 feet, beyond that was miles of unwelcoming forest in all directions. I've aborted two other takeoffs from this airport, and should have aborted a third. The two aborts were just relands, on the same runway, so they don't really count. How glad I am that I keep planning for a failure. It would appear that I have not had my last!
Prepare for the unexpected!
Pilot DAR
I took off for a flight test of a recently repaired autopilot, in a Lake Amphibian. Wind 180 @ 7kt, so I used runway 18, full 6000 foot length. 200 feet up, and the gear had just retracted, the loud bang and clatter up and behind me, and the shaking engine pylon, told me this was going to be a very short flight. Pullng the power off helped. A quick teardrop (flying, not from eyes), gear and flap selected down really fast, and I was pointed back at runway 36, fast but nice touchdown halfway down the runway. I found I still had power to taxi, and the engine was now smooth again. When I parked, and got out, the reason was clear. The cowl latch had broken it's lock, and released, allowing the half cowl to open, and flop all over the place. Everyone was quite pleased that it did not rip off, and go out through a quite new propeller! It's amazing how much the flopping cowl made the whole pylon shake!
The farthest I got from the button of runway 18 was about 7000 feet, beyond that was miles of unwelcoming forest in all directions. I've aborted two other takeoffs from this airport, and should have aborted a third. The two aborts were just relands, on the same runway, so they don't really count. How glad I am that I keep planning for a failure. It would appear that I have not had my last!
Prepare for the unexpected!
Pilot DAR
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full 6000 foot length. 200 feet up, and the gear had just retracted
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Didn't he say he'd used the full length of the runway?