Dodgy hours-logging advice?

[Tigger_Too]

Is there not a situation where the total P1 time can exceed the sector time? For instance, if the pilot flying is regaining currency, under the supervision of a current and qualified pilot (who is therefore 'in command'), then can the pilot flying not claim P1 (actually P1/S), and the supervising pilot also claim P1?

Straight off the top of my head, with a mixture of JAA/FAA (and other) experience. So it might be a bit mixed up and I stand ready to be corrected.

[modelman]

Hours

TT wrote:

Is there not a situation where the total P1 time can exceed the sector time? For instance, if the pilot flying is regaining currency, under the supervision of a current and qualified pilot (who is therefore 'in command'), then can the pilot flying not claim P1 (actually P1/S), and the supervising pilot also claim P1?

If the P1 is regaining currency he would not be able to assume command at any time of the flight and log the hours unless the other person is a current FI.( nothing preventing him having a little 'drive' but it will not make him current).You cannot carry passengers unless you are current (90 days and all that) so at least one of the other people on board has to be a FI qualified to instruct on that class of a/c.
Note for all the FI's here-when instructing,how do you log your personal hours-just curious?

MM

[Tigger_Too]

Just been able to check FARs (it has been a while since I used my FAA license). FAR 61-51 covers this:

Sec. 61.51

Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

Note the requirement is to be rated or to have priveleges, NOT to be current.

and significantly:

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

So I stand by my original premise that in these circumstances the pilot regaining currency, being the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he/she is rated or has privileges, is entitled to log P1. From the above, the instructor will also log P1, so the total P1 time will indeed exceed the sector time.

Similarly, during a routine proficiency check (FAR 61.58), the flying pilot will normally be current to begin with, so is definitely entitled to claim P1 as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft. Instructor can also claim P1.

This is FAR remember, not JAR. Anyone disagree?

[englishal]

Well the FAA is different to the JAA or CAA.

You can log under the FARs whatever they say you can, but don't expect the CAA to recognise those hours.

The FARs also allow one to log "performing the duties of PIC" as PIC. In this case, for example a ME commercial rating, where you NEED 10 hrs of ME PIC (I think, something like that anyway) and the FAA realise that no school in their right mind will let someone "solo" a ME without a rating, or rent a ME having just gained the rating. So they allow someone who performs ALL of the duties of PIC to log PIC despite not having a rating and despite having a FI sat alongside them.

[Tigger_Too]

Let's develop this a bit further, and JAA this time:

JAR–FCL 1.080 Recording of flight time:

(c) Logging of time

(1) Pilot-in-command flight time

(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilot in-
command.

: Really helpful!

and as with FARs:

(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.

So I fly a proficiency test with an instructor. I am flying the aeroplane, I am current (rating has not yet expired) and qualified. I log PiC for the entire trip. This is what I have always done, and I do not believe it to be immoral or illegal.

Question though is what does the instructor log. If he is acting as an instructor, then he logs PiC. But is a proficiency check instructional flying? I have spoken to three (JAA) instructors in the last hour and they all log this as PiC (and all agree that the pilot undergoing the check can do the same.

So, FAR, or JAR, I still maintain my position. Total PiC time CAN exceed the sector time.

[BackPacker]

So I fly a proficiency test with an instructor.

If you mean the one hour out of twelve that you need to fly with an instructor for your revalidation by experience, you have to log it as a lesson (P/UT, which goes in the Dual column), otherwise it is not counted as a lesson and cannot be used for your revalidation by experience. The instructor logs P1 and the instructor needs to countersign your logbook.

If it's a club check or something else, then you have to decide up front who logs P1. If you log P1, the instructor logs nothing. If the instructor logs P1, you can log P/UT.

At least, that's how I understand it.

[Romeo India Xray]

JARs also make provision for "Student PIC" which can be logged as "PIC" by the student, and is by definition (something like) a flight where the student fulfills all of the obligations and actions that would normally be fulfilled by the PIC of an aircraft but does so under the supervision of an instructor who must also countersign the logbook entry.

This was not something that was in force (neither were JARs) when I trained, so I had no experience of this. I then moved to RIXland and started spending part of my time working in training and examinations - Now I am confronted by students (even pre-solo) who have PIC time .... go figure that one out!!!

Can someone tell me if this SPIC is something that is being used now in the UK?

As for the division of flight time in something that is single crew, it depends. My understanding is that you can legally relinquish control and command to another suitably qualified (this means in currency including 3to/landings) pilot however it is likely that you will have not fulfilled your obligations if you are in a club AC, as the stated AC commander will probably be already signed as such in the tech log - how do you bring the tech log up to date when it is on the ground and you can only have one nominated commander?

I remember something like 20 years ago in the UK, reading an article about the division of flight responsibilities in single pilot AC. This stated that you are within your rights to divide responsibilities (e.g. one of you does the navs and rads), but only provided that person is qualified and current to fly the type and even then, there is no possibility for that 2nd pilot to log the time other than in "any other flight" with no holder's capacity.

RIX

[S-Works]

SPIC can only be used by a student on an integrated course.

[IO540]

My understanding is that you can legally relinquish control and command to another suitably qualified (this means in currency including 3to/landings) pilot

I agree totally. There is some precedent for this too, in cases where e.g. an instructor flies as a passenger for a bit, and the training part of the flight starts outside the UK airspace boundary.

however it is likely that you will have not fulfilled your obligations if you are in a club AC, as the stated AC commander will probably be already signed as such in the tech log

Well, yes but that is totally irrelevant to legality of the flight. That is just [non]compliance with some club rule, and might impact an insurance claim. I would assume that if there was a prang, the PIC in the club records would accept responsibility even if somebody else was actually on the controls. But one cannot guarantee human integrity in the face of adversity or poverty

[italianjon]

So, stated above is: -

"Sec. 61.51

Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;"

With the fear of opening a HUGE can of worms... how does this relate to the 90 day rule and a "Safety Pilot"

There has been a huge amount of debate as to whether or not a PPL in the RHS is a passenger or not, and although I can not find the quotes, I am fairly sure the CAA conclusion is that a RHS PPL is a passenger in a single crew aircraft.

So this paragraph seems to allow a 90 day current PPL to take an aircraft into the air and hand control to a non 90 day current PPL to fly ciruicts as it only has the privelidge not currency statement.

I think this would be a good way forward for safety.

[IO540]

Mixing up U.S. FAA with UK CAA rules?

[ColonialFlyer]

There are several ways to log P1 for both pilots.

One of them is when an instrument rated pilot practice IFR (to gain IFR currency), he/she wears a IFR hood and simulates IFR condition while the other safty pilot provides look-out. In this case, they can both log P1 (not sure which type of P1 though).

Another one is when you are an airline pilot (or at least comerial). Captain and First officer share legs for experience. e.g. outbound leg, PF:Captain is P1 while PNF: FO is P2, inbound leg, PF: FO is P1US while PNF: Captain is still P1. In fact the captain is still in comand regardless who is flying.
(not entirely sure about this case)

[englishal]

One of them is when an instrument rated pilot practice IFR (to gain IFR currency), he/she wears a IFR hood and simulates IFR condition while the other safty pilot provides look-out. In this case, they can both log P1 (not sure which type of P1 though).

again people are mixing up CAA (JAA) and FAA rules. This question is about the CAA and JAA as far as I understand it.

Yes in the USA system you can both log PIC when doing instrument training (but note the requirements....).
No in JAALand you cannot. End of story. In fact in the UK you do not even need a PPL in the RHS as safety pilot, whereas in the USA you MUST have a licenced and rated safety pilot.