A time logging question!
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
A time logging question!
On aircraft such as the Twin Otter or that ilk that are certified for single pilot operation but carry 2 crew for company SOP how does the second pilot log time?
For example VFR water taxi ops in remote locations.
For example VFR water taxi ops in remote locations.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 2
From: USA
Bose-X,
I'm not a CAA or UK pilot, so my answer is informational, for-reference-only.
In the US, if the airplane is single pilot certificated, the second in command may only log the time if the airplane is operated in circumstances where a SIC is legally required. We don't have P1 or P2, just PIC and SIC (pilot in command and second in command)...probably roughly the same thing. A company requirement for a SIC doesn't mean the second pilot is legally required...because it's a company thing. It doesn't authorize the second pilot to log the time. He can get paid as a SIC, and do the same job...but unless it's a charter operation in which the regulation might require a SIC, it wouldn't be loggable for the second pilot.
I can't say how this applies specifically to the regulations under which you operate. From a common sense point of view, however, whereas it's the regulatory agency which sets the certification and logging requirements, the fact that a private company might require a second in command on board is really irrelevant.
As an example, over the Grand Canyon, a Twin Otter being flown as a charter airplane will require a second in command, and the SIC will log the time. If the airplane were to return to Las Vegas and be used in a skydiving operation, strictly a private venture, while the SIC might go along, he wouldn't be required, and thus couldn't log the time.
Again, this is in the US...and your mileage may, of course, vary.
I'm not a CAA or UK pilot, so my answer is informational, for-reference-only.
In the US, if the airplane is single pilot certificated, the second in command may only log the time if the airplane is operated in circumstances where a SIC is legally required. We don't have P1 or P2, just PIC and SIC (pilot in command and second in command)...probably roughly the same thing. A company requirement for a SIC doesn't mean the second pilot is legally required...because it's a company thing. It doesn't authorize the second pilot to log the time. He can get paid as a SIC, and do the same job...but unless it's a charter operation in which the regulation might require a SIC, it wouldn't be loggable for the second pilot.
I can't say how this applies specifically to the regulations under which you operate. From a common sense point of view, however, whereas it's the regulatory agency which sets the certification and logging requirements, the fact that a private company might require a second in command on board is really irrelevant.
As an example, over the Grand Canyon, a Twin Otter being flown as a charter airplane will require a second in command, and the SIC will log the time. If the airplane were to return to Las Vegas and be used in a skydiving operation, strictly a private venture, while the SIC might go along, he wouldn't be required, and thus couldn't log the time.
Again, this is in the US...and your mileage may, of course, vary.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
From: London
Where an otherwise single crew aircraft is operated TWO crew as a requirement of company SOP's, the second pilot can log time as SIC / P2.
The CAA will accept these 'multi crew hours' towards the 500 multi crew required for the unfreezing of a frozen ATPL.
That's the case for something like a single crew Citation. I guess the same would apply to your Twin Otter example.
The CAA will accept these 'multi crew hours' towards the 500 multi crew required for the unfreezing of a frozen ATPL.
That's the case for something like a single crew Citation. I guess the same would apply to your Twin Otter example.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Its actually an operation manual combined with an agreement with the CAA via your ops inspector which decides how the hours are logged.
If you have written your SOP's and trained for a dual crew environment and the aircraft is deemed suitably equipped to run dual crew ops you will be allowed to log it as dual crew.
Examples of this are the loganair twin otters on the western isles and the Highland airways F406 fisheries patrol aircraft.
If you don't have the approval the only person who can log anything is the PIC. If there is an additional pilot onboard to comply with public transport rules about SPA IFR ops and autopilots or should I say lack of autopilot. They don't get to log anything unless the PIC is a CRI/CRE on type and then they can log dual on empty sectors.
Its actually a bit of a money saver for a first job for the pilot. Because it is a SPA aircraft you don't need a MCC course to do the type rating. Then after 500 hours multi crew ops you get an exemption on the requirement to have done the MCC if you then go on to do a multicrew type rating.
Just to add it is not certain that you will be given the right to log multicrew time, the fisheries are an example some of the fisheries operators (current and past) are/were allowed to log multicrew time. Others were not and that was using exactly the same airframes.
If you have written your SOP's and trained for a dual crew environment and the aircraft is deemed suitably equipped to run dual crew ops you will be allowed to log it as dual crew.
Examples of this are the loganair twin otters on the western isles and the Highland airways F406 fisheries patrol aircraft.
If you don't have the approval the only person who can log anything is the PIC. If there is an additional pilot onboard to comply with public transport rules about SPA IFR ops and autopilots or should I say lack of autopilot. They don't get to log anything unless the PIC is a CRI/CRE on type and then they can log dual on empty sectors.
Its actually a bit of a money saver for a first job for the pilot. Because it is a SPA aircraft you don't need a MCC course to do the type rating. Then after 500 hours multi crew ops you get an exemption on the requirement to have done the MCC if you then go on to do a multicrew type rating.
Just to add it is not certain that you will be given the right to log multicrew time, the fisheries are an example some of the fisheries operators (current and past) are/were allowed to log multicrew time. Others were not and that was using exactly the same airframes.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Very interesting indeed!! The question was not a UK specific one it was rather one of generic interest.
What about crew licensing. I single pilot aircraft only needs a CPL to be commander does this change with situations where you have 2 crew?
What about crew licensing. I single pilot aircraft only needs a CPL to be commander does this change with situations where you have 2 crew?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
You only require to have a cpl to command a dual crew ops SPA aircraft in the UK.
The rules changed with JAR that to gain a ATPL you had to have passed a LPC in a multicrew aircraft after you had all the experience requirements. So it would be nigh on impossible to get people qualified to sit in the LHS if they started off in the right without sending them off for a useless type rating on something bigger.
The initial type rating the pilots train for is a single pilot rating on the aircraft. Shortly followed by a LPC in right hand seat if thats the seat they are going to, to give them a multicrew IR in that aircraft.
You can get some quite large aircraft operating under these rules the largest I can think of is the Beech 1900D
The rules changed with JAR that to gain a ATPL you had to have passed a LPC in a multicrew aircraft after you had all the experience requirements. So it would be nigh on impossible to get people qualified to sit in the LHS if they started off in the right without sending them off for a useless type rating on something bigger.
The initial type rating the pilots train for is a single pilot rating on the aircraft. Shortly followed by a LPC in right hand seat if thats the seat they are going to, to give them a multicrew IR in that aircraft.
You can get some quite large aircraft operating under these rules the largest I can think of is the Beech 1900D
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
The jetstream 31/32 is a multicrew type aircraft. Under civilian rules it has never been a single pilot aircraft. So the LPC is valid for ATPL application. The french did try and convert it to single crew but it never came to pass.
You could fly it single crew but it wouldn't be very pleasant, I think the RAF and Navy did on their's but not sure if the cockpit setup was different.
So yes with jetstreams it is CPL or ATPL as co-pilot and ONLY an ATPL holder as PIC.
You could fly it single crew but it wouldn't be very pleasant, I think the RAF and Navy did on their's but not sure if the cockpit setup was different.
So yes with jetstreams it is CPL or ATPL as co-pilot and ONLY an ATPL holder as PIC.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Anything which is defined as a single pilot aircraft.
Although I couldn't see a Cessna 150 however you write the SOP's getting by the flight ops inspector as a multicrew operation.
The only difference between the privileges of a CPL holder and an ATPL holder is that an ATPL holder is allowed to PIC multicrew certified aircraft.
To be honest getting the upgrade to ATPL in the UK is a function of totalling up the times in your log book, carrying out your normal currency LPC/OPC check and sending money to the CAA. Other countries operating under JAR it can be a completely different kettle of fish with external examiners required, oral examinations and sitting a IR test in the LHS with various command exercises thrown at you.
Although I couldn't see a Cessna 150 however you write the SOP's getting by the flight ops inspector as a multicrew operation.
The only difference between the privileges of a CPL holder and an ATPL holder is that an ATPL holder is allowed to PIC multicrew certified aircraft.
To be honest getting the upgrade to ATPL in the UK is a function of totalling up the times in your log book, carrying out your normal currency LPC/OPC check and sending money to the CAA. Other countries operating under JAR it can be a completely different kettle of fish with external examiners required, oral examinations and sitting a IR test in the LHS with various command exercises thrown at you.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Yes because they have autopilots fitted so are legal to be flown Single pilot IFR public transport.
The Blue lot have to have safety pilots onboard due to the lack of autopilots. And they don't get to log a single hour.
The regs involved with single pilot ops are in some ways rather complicated, if we are lucky someone like CRX who really does know his stuff on the subject will come along and preach chapter and verse. I have worked for company's who run both single pilot and multicrew ops but only on the multicrew side of things. The regulations have so many restrictions/exceptions depending if its IFR/VFR, public transport, air ambulance, surveying etc etc. And each company tends to have its own agreements with the CAA about what they are allowed to do.
To be honest I am sure if the regulator could have done it, they would have banned commercial single pilot ops years ago.
The Blue lot have to have safety pilots onboard due to the lack of autopilots. And they don't get to log a single hour.
The regs involved with single pilot ops are in some ways rather complicated, if we are lucky someone like CRX who really does know his stuff on the subject will come along and preach chapter and verse. I have worked for company's who run both single pilot and multicrew ops but only on the multicrew side of things. The regulations have so many restrictions/exceptions depending if its IFR/VFR, public transport, air ambulance, surveying etc etc. And each company tends to have its own agreements with the CAA about what they are allowed to do.
To be honest I am sure if the regulator could have done it, they would have banned commercial single pilot ops years ago.
