Filing IFR for flight outside of controlled airspace?
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Filing IFR for flight outside of controlled airspace?
I did my FAA IR during the summer and now back in the UK I know I can file airways on N reg but I'm slightly confused about the whole business about IFR outside of controlled airspace.
Say I file a route that crosses mostly class G and through some class D zones but not in class A at all how will the file plan be treated?
Will it be as if I've filed VFR in the sense that ATC units along the way probably will not have any knowledge of my existence or will the units at say the zones that I wish to transit know I'm coming?
Is there actually any difference between filing IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace and if not is there any point in filing at all (above the advantages of filing a normal VFR flight plan)?
Those are just a few questions that I have in my head at the moment but I'd appreciate any general advice on the subject of IFR outside CAS and perhaps people's views on whether or not it's a safe and viable way to operate an aircraft.
Say I file a route that crosses mostly class G and through some class D zones but not in class A at all how will the file plan be treated?
Will it be as if I've filed VFR in the sense that ATC units along the way probably will not have any knowledge of my existence or will the units at say the zones that I wish to transit know I'm coming?
Is there actually any difference between filing IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace and if not is there any point in filing at all (above the advantages of filing a normal VFR flight plan)?
Those are just a few questions that I have in my head at the moment but I'd appreciate any general advice on the subject of IFR outside CAS and perhaps people's views on whether or not it's a safe and viable way to operate an aircraft.
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It is treat the same as a VFR flight plan basically. So the start and the end get a copy and nothing else. You are on your own for negotiating crossing.
Generally when I fly this way I will plan the route so that I have at least one section in CAS so the plan is entered into CFMU. I find doing this means I get hand offs into and out of the airways system and experience has shown that if you have been in the airways even for a fairly short way then things go smoothly.
Although to be fair I try to do all of my flying in the airways even short trips especially passing around London. You can't bust airspace when you are under positive control!!!!
The only place a really struggle to fly airways to is the south west as it is just a barren hole but I will often fly WCO R41 SAM and then R8 DAWLEY before leaving the airways. Pretty much everywhere else in the UK you can get to on the airways and at TAS gain speeds what looks like a diversion from a direct route is often a few minutes at most and worth every second for full RADAR and separation and most importantly the ability to claim over the weather rather than fly in the soup.
Generally when I fly this way I will plan the route so that I have at least one section in CAS so the plan is entered into CFMU. I find doing this means I get hand offs into and out of the airways system and experience has shown that if you have been in the airways even for a fairly short way then things go smoothly.
Although to be fair I try to do all of my flying in the airways even short trips especially passing around London. You can't bust airspace when you are under positive control!!!!
The only place a really struggle to fly airways to is the south west as it is just a barren hole but I will often fly WCO R41 SAM and then R8 DAWLEY before leaving the airways. Pretty much everywhere else in the UK you can get to on the airways and at TAS gain speeds what looks like a diversion from a direct route is often a few minutes at most and worth every second for full RADAR and separation and most importantly the ability to claim over the weather rather than fly in the soup.
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people's views on whether or not it's a safe and viable way to operate an aircraft.
Clearly outside CAS you may not be able to receive a radar service, and even if you can, there may be aircraft the radar cannot see - gliders.
Some will tell you that the evidence suggests from the point of view of collision with other traffic it is safer to fly IFR (IMC) outside of CAS than VFR, because the historical record is significantly skewed in favour of IFR. However statistics do not tell the whole story. There are far fewer aircraft operating IFR IMC outside CAS so you would expect the number of collisions to be fewer in the first place. Taking this into account, I have idea whether the risk is greater or less, but the evidence would suggest the risk of any mid air is very small.
For those who would rather not deal in statistics it is worth remembering that there are some aircraft who are not going to be following the rules of the road in IMC. As discussed recently gliders may be in IMC at any height / level and not transponding. There may be other aircraft not transponding as there is no legal requirment to carry a transponder outside CAS. This means that you can neither rely on TAS or flying at the correct height for your heading to avoid other traffic. Moreover there is traffic below the transition level who are probably flying at whatever height they like.
In terms of other risk there is of course clear evidence that single crew IMC ops is a great deal more risky that flying in VMC. The risk is almost certainly proportional to the pilot's level of skill and currency and perhaps also in part to whether or not he has a reliable auto pilot.
Clearly outside CAS you may not be able to receive a radar service, and even if you can, there may be aircraft the radar cannot see - gliders.
Some will tell you that the evidence suggests from the point of view of collision with other traffic it is safer to fly IFR (IMC) outside of CAS than VFR, because the historical record is significantly skewed in favour of IFR. However statistics do not tell the whole story. There are far fewer aircraft operating IFR IMC outside CAS so you would expect the number of collisions to be fewer in the first place. Taking this into account, I have idea whether the risk is greater or less, but the evidence would suggest the risk of any mid air is very small.
For those who would rather not deal in statistics it is worth remembering that there are some aircraft who are not going to be following the rules of the road in IMC. As discussed recently gliders may be in IMC at any height / level and not transponding. There may be other aircraft not transponding as there is no legal requirment to carry a transponder outside CAS. This means that you can neither rely on TAS or flying at the correct height for your heading to avoid other traffic. Moreover there is traffic below the transition level who are probably flying at whatever height they like.
In terms of other risk there is of course clear evidence that single crew IMC ops is a great deal more risky that flying in VMC. The risk is almost certainly proportional to the pilot's level of skill and currency and perhaps also in part to whether or not he has a reliable auto pilot.
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The world of IFR in the US vs. UK has a number of key differences. If you are not already a member it is def worth joining PPLIR for a ton of useful advice and information.
Although someone will tell me the following isn't true, I find it a helpful way of thinking about planning in the UK. Think of three different sets of flight rules, VFR, IFR OCAS, Airways and the following differences
Although someone will tell me the following isn't true, I find it a helpful way of thinking about planning in the UK. Think of three different sets of flight rules, VFR, IFR OCAS, Airways and the following differences
- VFR - as it says on the tin
- IFR OCAS, you plan and fly with a VFR chart, terrain clearance, routing, NAVaid suitability, airspace clearances all your responsibility to check, understand and obtain (in this case you are never cleared to your destination as compared to the takeoff clearance you get in the US). Separation/radar service may or may not be available depending on where you are flying, who is open and their workload.
- Airways - works like IFR everywhere else. You plan and fly with IFR charts, you must have a flight plan that passes CFMU validation and (in my experience) it needs to touch en-route controlled airspace (i.e. an airway). All required clearances are implicit in the process and you will get a separation service (and generally a default RAS when you drop back out of controlled airspace near your destination). However, occasionally you can suddenly be pushed out of the system and moved into type 2 with a cheery 'descend to 4000 feet out of controlled airspace, squawk 7000 free call on route'! At which point the whole job of navigating, terrain separation, airspace clearances drops back to you.
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Depending on what sort of machine you are flying also consider using London Military out of CAS. You need to be at or above FL100 for their service but I have found them to be equal to airways controllers and they do look after you well.
Going west to East or visa versa there are a network of military corridors you can use depending on your altitude capability.
I am not sure what you are flying whether its a mild single or more complex and capable single/twin.
Out side of CAS it is usually again the good old military who give RAS and you do not need to file IFR only to fly IFR rules and levels.
As another poster stated even airways into smaller fields you are often dropped out and left on your own for the descent and landing
Pace
Going west to East or visa versa there are a network of military corridors you can use depending on your altitude capability.
I am not sure what you are flying whether its a mild single or more complex and capable single/twin.
Out side of CAS it is usually again the good old military who give RAS and you do not need to file IFR only to fly IFR rules and levels.
As another poster stated even airways into smaller fields you are often dropped out and left on your own for the descent and landing
Pace
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Depends on what I am in. If I am in the Mirage then around FL250.
If in the Cessna I am usually around FL140 which actually drops me out of the airway en-route GIBSO but that is far enough along for me to get handed to The Mil who will then hand me to either Exeter if I am going there or St Mawgan if going to Newquay.
If in the Cessna I am usually around FL140 which actually drops me out of the airway en-route GIBSO but that is far enough along for me to get handed to The Mil who will then hand me to either Exeter if I am going there or St Mawgan if going to Newquay.
Fly Conventional Gear
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I am not sure what you are flying whether its a mild single or more complex and capable single/twin.
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File IFR for RIS/RAS
I have an IMC rating and file IFR quite often, even OCAS and VMC.
The reason is that (assuming there is radar coverage) I find that giving "IFR" as flight rules instead of "VFR" gets me RAS or in most cases at least RIS when all the VFR aircraft around are getting FIS.
May not help a lot in avoidance, but having a RIS/RAS seems to me that I am likely to get a bit better attention on the screen than the FIS folks (and does seem to work this way, comparing when I have a FIS with RIS/RAS).
The reason is that (assuming there is radar coverage) I find that giving "IFR" as flight rules instead of "VFR" gets me RAS or in most cases at least RIS when all the VFR aircraft around are getting FIS.
May not help a lot in avoidance, but having a RIS/RAS seems to me that I am likely to get a bit better attention on the screen than the FIS folks (and does seem to work this way, comparing when I have a FIS with RIS/RAS).
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File IFR for RIS/RAS
I have an IMC rating and file IFR quite often, even OCAS and VMC.
The reason is that (assuming there is radar coverage) I find that giving "IFR" as flight rules instead of "VFR" gets me RAS or in most cases at least RIS when all the VFR aircraft around are getting FIS.
May not help a lot in avoidance, but having a RIS/RAS seems to me that I am likely to get a bit better attention on the screen than the FIS folks (and does seem to work this way, comparing when I have a FIS with RIS/RAS).
I have an IMC rating and file IFR quite often, even OCAS and VMC.
The reason is that (assuming there is radar coverage) I find that giving "IFR" as flight rules instead of "VFR" gets me RAS or in most cases at least RIS when all the VFR aircraft around are getting FIS.
May not help a lot in avoidance, but having a RIS/RAS seems to me that I am likely to get a bit better attention on the screen than the FIS folks (and does seem to work this way, comparing when I have a FIS with RIS/RAS).
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Really helpful
What a facile remark. I could of course ask for FIS then 3 minutes later "I'll be IMC in a minute, could I have a RIS" then "back out of cloud now, OK with FIS".. yes that sounds a really good idea to keep asking the controller like that.
The services are there to be used; if I happen not to be in IMC for some of the time that is my good luck.
The services are there to be used; if I happen not to be in IMC for some of the time that is my good luck.
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Really helpful
What a facile remark. I could of course ask for FIS then 3 minutes later "I'll be IMC in a minute, could I have a RIS" then "back out of cloud now, OK with FIS".. yes that sounds a really good idea to keep asking the controller like that.
The services are there to be used; if I happen not to be in IMC for some of the time that is my good luck.
What a facile remark. I could of course ask for FIS then 3 minutes later "I'll be IMC in a minute, could I have a RIS" then "back out of cloud now, OK with FIS".. yes that sounds a really good idea to keep asking the controller like that.
The services are there to be used; if I happen not to be in IMC for some of the time that is my good luck.
The reason is that (assuming there is radar coverage) I find that giving "IFR" as flight rules instead of "VFR" gets me RAS or in most cases at least RIS when all the VFR aircraft around are getting FIS.
May not help a lot in avoidance, but having a RIS/RAS seems to me that I am likely to get a bit better attention on the screen than the FIS folks (and does seem to work this way, comparing when I have a FIS with RIS/RAS)
There is no excuse for asking for a RIS/RAS when flying VFR as you are just stretching a controller and most likely denying others a service as you become a priority.
When genuinely IFR in IMC then fair enough. You are either VFR which one would assume the conditions are as everyone around you is getting a FIS or you are IMC and IFR in which case why is everyone around you asking for a FIS?
Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?
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There is no excuse for asking for a RIS/RAS in when flying VFR as you are just stretching a controller and most likely denying others a service as you become a priority.
(1) Why on earth is a RIS superflous when flying VFR? Yes, see and avoid is the primary means of collision avoidance, but why not make use of all available help?
(2) Inconsistent. If you believe that VFR pilots do not need a RIS, who exactly is denied service if he files IFR to get one????
RAS, on the other hand (which you will only get when IFR) is a bit of a pain in some areas for both the controller and you (how on earth will he/she achieve 5NM vertical / 3000ft vertical from unknown traffic at Ockham? Do you really want to be vectored all over the place?) so RIS should normally do the trick.
Small anecdote from my CPL training: On my first sortie with the instructor I asked habitually for a RIS. The instructor told me I should only get an FIS, and used the SOP argument when I stated I considered not using an available RIS in busy airspace somewhat lacking in airmanship. Three weeks later we had a near collision (30 ft, same level) in gin-clear VMC. Over the beer we had that evening he quietly said "I see your point now".
Last edited by Cobalt; 17th Sep 2008 at 21:51.
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Bose-X, I can't agree with your last. A pilot is perfectly entitled to request whatever service he wishes. It's up to the ATCO to decide whether he can provide any type of service, or not. If not, all he has to do is refuse the request, or offer a different service.
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Bose-X, I can't agree with your last. A pilot is perfectly entitled to request whatever service he wishes. It's up to the ATCO to decide whether he can provide any type of service, or not. If not, all he has to do is refuse the request, or offer a different service.
Claiming to be IFR in VFR conditions as an excuse to get a 'better' service or 'more attention' is reprehensible in my humble opinion.
But hey it's just my 2 cents.
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Well I suppose part of it comes down to the slightly odd definition of IFR we have in the UK. If it's CAVOK outside and someone calls up a LARS in the Open FIR claiming to be IFR at FL40 or whatever then the controller is going to know that "IFR" in this sense means that the aircraft just happens to be flying 1000ft above the nearest object within 5NM of track and is flying at the correct level for track.
What is more important to the controller outside of controlled airspace is whether one is VMC or IMC....and claiming to be IMC when one is VMC is just odd.
What is more important to the controller outside of controlled airspace is whether one is VMC or IMC....and claiming to be IMC when one is VMC is just odd.
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Personally if OCAS I think it is helpful to all concerned to comment why you want a RIS if the controller is obviously busy with lots of VFR traffic.
For example, I am IMC or the viz into the sun is dreadful.
This is particularly true at weekends when the airspace can be very busy and the controllers are obviously stretched. Equally, during the week at times it becomes irrelevant - hardly anyone is flying and the controller is bored to death.
As usual a healthy does of common sense helps all concerned.
Bose - you migrated to the other side?
For example, I am IMC or the viz into the sun is dreadful.
This is particularly true at weekends when the airspace can be very busy and the controllers are obviously stretched. Equally, during the week at times it becomes irrelevant - hardly anyone is flying and the controller is bored to death.
As usual a healthy does of common sense helps all concerned.
But hey it's just my 2 cents.