Light aircraft "could be bombs"
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
I haven't bothered to read the last two pages....
But regarding terrorism - I DO NOT want to live in a "locked down" country, with new anti terror laws popping up all the time, as knee jerk reactions to some perceived threat. They will NEVER catch them anyway, and all these new laws do is p*ss people off and even turn people against the country.
The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was a mastermind plot put together by Bush and his neo conservative buddies for no other reason than energy and hence power and he managed to sucker in Blair - now the world is a much more dangerous place, full stop. I don't blame the USA, just the Bush family and his mates.
In Britain we have had around 52 people killed by these nutters in say a decade, yet draconian new laws have been introduced. To put that in perspective, at least 31 teenagers have died in knife crime THIS YEAR and the annual murder rate runs at about 800 PA. We don't see high impact new laws introduced for these events do we?
The states is even worse, how many nutters have been into a school with an Armalite this decade? yet guns can still be bought in Walmart?
I am not anti USA at all, I love much of the stuff over there, flying in particulal. My wife is American and we live in the UK but she will not return to live in the USA until Bush and the Neo conservatives are gone for good. The UK is not much better either with TBLiars...sorry, GBrowns governement pushing through draconian laws every week. Soon they'll be able to arrest you if you write a post like this on an Internet forum.
Maybe it is time to move......
But regarding terrorism - I DO NOT want to live in a "locked down" country, with new anti terror laws popping up all the time, as knee jerk reactions to some perceived threat. They will NEVER catch them anyway, and all these new laws do is p*ss people off and even turn people against the country.
The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was a mastermind plot put together by Bush and his neo conservative buddies for no other reason than energy and hence power and he managed to sucker in Blair - now the world is a much more dangerous place, full stop. I don't blame the USA, just the Bush family and his mates.
In Britain we have had around 52 people killed by these nutters in say a decade, yet draconian new laws have been introduced. To put that in perspective, at least 31 teenagers have died in knife crime THIS YEAR and the annual murder rate runs at about 800 PA. We don't see high impact new laws introduced for these events do we?
The states is even worse, how many nutters have been into a school with an Armalite this decade? yet guns can still be bought in Walmart?
I am not anti USA at all, I love much of the stuff over there, flying in particulal. My wife is American and we live in the UK but she will not return to live in the USA until Bush and the Neo conservatives are gone for good. The UK is not much better either with TBLiars...sorry, GBrowns governement pushing through draconian laws every week. Soon they'll be able to arrest you if you write a post like this on an Internet forum.
Maybe it is time to move......
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 137
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From: UK
Fuji Bound
I thought your post a reasonable comment unitl you said this.
VFR FPs have nothing to do with the prevention of terrorism. GAR reports are concerned amoung other issues with monitoring the pattern and frequency of traffic movement but provide no protection at all against a light aircraft being used in the way envisaged by the original poster.
It is a reasonable point, the two things can be compared for accuracy in addition to the information contained within the various logs books carried. I'd bet my mortgage there are descrepancies aplenty and omissions of information and/or forms.
I thought your post a reasonable comment unitl you said this.
VFR FPs have nothing to do with the prevention of terrorism. GAR reports are concerned amoung other issues with monitoring the pattern and frequency of traffic movement but provide no protection at all against a light aircraft being used in the way envisaged by the original poster.
It is a reasonable point, the two things can be compared for accuracy in addition to the information contained within the various logs books carried. I'd bet my mortgage there are descrepancies aplenty and omissions of information and/or forms.
Fly Conventional Gear
Joined: May 2007
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From: Winchester
But its not its only AVIATION AVIATION AVIATION. That is where this whole thing is wrong and where our industry is being loaded with unfair costs and slowly destroyed.
It is highly regrettable but really not surprising that aviation continues to be a focus.
We shouldn't forget though improvements that have been made in commercial aviation security and the overall reduction (or at least shift to other targets) in aviation related terrorism that they have brought.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
David
Ok maybe some of us are letting off steam in this thread but maybe thats more indicative at the frustration experienced by people who love their aviation and can afford to fly less and less as the costs and restrictions mount by the day.
What are we supposed to do in your book "for what we are about to recieve next may the Government make us truly thankful?" I think not.
Pace
Ok maybe some of us are letting off steam in this thread but maybe thats more indicative at the frustration experienced by people who love their aviation and can afford to fly less and less as the costs and restrictions mount by the day.
What are we supposed to do in your book "for what we are about to recieve next may the Government make us truly thankful?" I think not.
Pace
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
ContactTower
I take what you are saying Lockerbie and 9/11 were terrible attrocities and sensible moves need to be made to ensure that neither of those occur again.
But please do not loose the reason for the start of this thread. That was the fact that Lord Carlisle is now showing concern over a Cessna 172 taking off out of a farmers field as a weapon of mass destruction. Hardly a fully loaded 747 and the creation of 3000 extra jobs for some sort of border control When our borders have been open to anyone who cares to make a home here.
The Government dont even have a clue who has settled here.
The fact that The London tube has not been targeted is probably more due to luck as an equal disaster is there in the waiting with NO security checks in place to stop one and that to me is more frightening than the percieved threat of a Cessna 172 and that is where Lord Carlisle should be directing his attention and our money.
Pace
I take what you are saying Lockerbie and 9/11 were terrible attrocities and sensible moves need to be made to ensure that neither of those occur again.
But please do not loose the reason for the start of this thread. That was the fact that Lord Carlisle is now showing concern over a Cessna 172 taking off out of a farmers field as a weapon of mass destruction. Hardly a fully loaded 747 and the creation of 3000 extra jobs for some sort of border control When our borders have been open to anyone who cares to make a home here.
The Government dont even have a clue who has settled here.
The fact that The London tube has not been targeted is probably more due to luck as an equal disaster is there in the waiting with NO security checks in place to stop one and that to me is more frightening than the percieved threat of a Cessna 172 and that is where Lord Carlisle should be directing his attention and our money.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th June 2008 at 14:54.
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
It is a reasonable point, the two things can be compared for accuracy in addition to the information contained within the various logs books carried. I'd bet my mortgage there are descrepancies aplenty and omissions of information and/or forms.
Do you think a terrorist is going to hire, steal or buy an aircraft in France file or not file a GAR and / or file or not file a FP, head for London and explode himself and the aircraft over the PM?
Such a terrorists would need to go back to training camp for a period of retraining.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: UK
Fuji Bound
You may well (bet your mortgage), but whatever discrepancies you find whilst perhaps having something to do with pilots involved in illegal imports they will have nothing to do with a terrorist attack of the type outlined on this thread.
Do you think a terrorist is going to hire, steal or buy an aircraft in France file or not file a GAR and / or file or not file a FP, head for London and explode himself and the aircraft over the PM?
That's the point Fuji and we've come to it in a very roundabout way, those who would do this type of thing, or indeed any type of criminal activity, would not comply or would seek to falsify records and are, therefore, easier to single out and target as a result of the review of legitimate records. We're all concentraing on the worst case scenario in terms of the utilisation of GA for such purposes but it seems to me the enemy are probing just as much as planning. It's this we need to be aware of. The top echelons of criminal enterprise have, demonstrable, links in some cases to the planning and funding of the type of activity being discussed. This is not a secret, it's a legitimate part of this debate.
Intelligence is not just about specific information, it's also about analysing basic information and records, one presumably then can identify patterns, trends and probabilities.
Perhaps.....?
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth.?
You may well (bet your mortgage), but whatever discrepancies you find whilst perhaps having something to do with pilots involved in illegal imports they will have nothing to do with a terrorist attack of the type outlined on this thread.
Do you think a terrorist is going to hire, steal or buy an aircraft in France file or not file a GAR and / or file or not file a FP, head for London and explode himself and the aircraft over the PM?
That's the point Fuji and we've come to it in a very roundabout way, those who would do this type of thing, or indeed any type of criminal activity, would not comply or would seek to falsify records and are, therefore, easier to single out and target as a result of the review of legitimate records. We're all concentraing on the worst case scenario in terms of the utilisation of GA for such purposes but it seems to me the enemy are probing just as much as planning. It's this we need to be aware of. The top echelons of criminal enterprise have, demonstrable, links in some cases to the planning and funding of the type of activity being discussed. This is not a secret, it's a legitimate part of this debate.
Intelligence is not just about specific information, it's also about analysing basic information and records, one presumably then can identify patterns, trends and probabilities.
Perhaps.....?
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth.?
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
No, its not the point at all.
An aircraft used in the way suggested on here is not going to be part of any regular traffic pattern, it is not going to be involved in a number of runs to and from France filing false GARs or FPs, in short it is not going to have figured on the radar at all ever.
False GARs and FPs are used to disguise regular flights to and from the continent where the aircraft is being used for smuggling, but nothing more sinister. These records may well be used to identify traffic that conforms to such a pattern of activity.
An aircraft used in the way suggested on here is not going to be part of any regular traffic pattern, it is not going to be involved in a number of runs to and from France filing false GARs or FPs, in short it is not going to have figured on the radar at all ever.
False GARs and FPs are used to disguise regular flights to and from the continent where the aircraft is being used for smuggling, but nothing more sinister. These records may well be used to identify traffic that conforms to such a pattern of activity.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: UK
The defence you put up of GA and the perceived right to freedom of movement is admirable Sir and I actually agree with your points in the main but I feel that you are missing the bigger picture, the potential to abuse is the issue. People are not honest, people seek to hide their intentions and people evade scrutiny wherever possible for any number of reasons.
I support the authorities on this issue and as much as you have to get off your holiday flight from Spain to show a passport and pass through any notion of a border control, why should anyone flying privately be any different?
You have failed to answer the points pertaining to activity in support of such abuses, logistics, recon, funding. It's all connected. It's why the police are out talking to schools and clubs, they are simply trying to find the wheat in amongst the chaff. This 'self policing and self regulating' stuff just does not wash with me any more. What about moving people in to do something domestically? Yes, the axle of a lorry is easier but can you catogorically state that it won't happen in GA? I suspect not.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Best, QP
I support the authorities on this issue and as much as you have to get off your holiday flight from Spain to show a passport and pass through any notion of a border control, why should anyone flying privately be any different?
You have failed to answer the points pertaining to activity in support of such abuses, logistics, recon, funding. It's all connected. It's why the police are out talking to schools and clubs, they are simply trying to find the wheat in amongst the chaff. This 'self policing and self regulating' stuff just does not wash with me any more. What about moving people in to do something domestically? Yes, the axle of a lorry is easier but can you catogorically state that it won't happen in GA? I suspect not.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Best, QP
Fly Conventional Gear
Joined: May 2007
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From: Winchester
Pace I completely agree with your last post....it does seem worrying that Lord Carlile is concentrating on apparently frivolous threats while there are already plenty other areas that are much more obvious to be dealt with first.
Whatever proposals come out of this though (if any) the most important thing is that measures are implemented after full consultation with representatives of General Aviation and with the broad consent of the private flying community. Something which (if the need arises) AOPA might want to take on...
Whatever proposals come out of this though (if any) the most important thing is that measures are implemented after full consultation with representatives of General Aviation and with the broad consent of the private flying community. Something which (if the need arises) AOPA might want to take on...
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
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From: UK
Having read Lord Carlile's report he expresses a concern about the potential risk in GA. He also indicates that operators are alive to the issue and vigilant. If we continue to be so then we may be left alone, I certainly hope so.
Qwertyplop wrote
Avoiding all that airport bureaucracy is one reason why I have an aeroplane of my own. It's also why the charter and air taxi market is booming. If you knew anything about security you would know that the criminals' documentation will be in apple pie order, though completely fraudulent
That's why vigilance and communication of intelligence is more effective and why the authorities are wise to seek co-operation from the GA community rather than impose excessive regulation which, as this thread shows all too clearly, is likely to be counterproductive.
Qwertyplop wrote
I support the authorities on this issue and as much as you have to get off your holiday flight from Spain to show a passport and pass through any notion of a border control, why should anyone flying privately be any different?
That's why vigilance and communication of intelligence is more effective and why the authorities are wise to seek co-operation from the GA community rather than impose excessive regulation which, as this thread shows all too clearly, is likely to be counterproductive.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Qwertyplop
I have to disagree with you, as you appear to be rather naive about the proposal.
I fly a very small aircraft that can carry me, fuel and a GPS, If I hit a building, I will be sitting (dead) in a pile of matchwood having bounced off the structure.
Compare this with a Cherokee jeep driving through a doorway at an airport. In fact there are a number of model aircraft that are bigger than my little aircraft and a bomber wouldn't even need to risk his own life to wreck anything
Similarly, if I were to try to blow up anything worthwhile, I would use a SAM missile at any point between Southwark to Heathrow or Heathrow to Windsor.
GA of my sort is not an effective threat in any conceivable way. Someone wanting to fly out of a farm strip would have to have completed the NPPL at least and then worked on strip flying for a bit - that is not the way that terrorists work.
They use low-tech tecniques and do it in the easiest possible way - forget about low end-GA. It is yet another scare story from a government who needs to keep us worried.
I have to disagree with you, as you appear to be rather naive about the proposal.
I fly a very small aircraft that can carry me, fuel and a GPS, If I hit a building, I will be sitting (dead) in a pile of matchwood having bounced off the structure.
Compare this with a Cherokee jeep driving through a doorway at an airport. In fact there are a number of model aircraft that are bigger than my little aircraft and a bomber wouldn't even need to risk his own life to wreck anything
Similarly, if I were to try to blow up anything worthwhile, I would use a SAM missile at any point between Southwark to Heathrow or Heathrow to Windsor.
GA of my sort is not an effective threat in any conceivable way. Someone wanting to fly out of a farm strip would have to have completed the NPPL at least and then worked on strip flying for a bit - that is not the way that terrorists work.
They use low-tech tecniques and do it in the easiest possible way - forget about low end-GA. It is yet another scare story from a government who needs to keep us worried.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,509
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From: Australia
It is yet another scare story from a government who needs to keep us worried
We are all aware of the governments intelligent and extremely well thought out response to an earlier terrorist event - INVADE IRAQ
..... that helped to calm the fanatics
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Toronto
Why bother with a C-172 when you can do up a UAV?
A recent NOTAM hereabouts disclosed that a UAV 17' long with a 22' wingspan was lurking about at heights up to 700' AGL.
The computer can take care of the flying and the GPS can pinpoint delivery. Takeoff can be done from a deserted parking lot at night.
But that's too much work compared to loading up a car with explosives.
And the jihadis are not about to knock off their best recruiters; so, the occupants of 10 Downing St and the WH have no worries
The computer can take care of the flying and the GPS can pinpoint delivery. Takeoff can be done from a deserted parking lot at night.
But that's too much work compared to loading up a car with explosives.
And the jihadis are not about to knock off their best recruiters; so, the occupants of 10 Downing St and the WH have no worries
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 137
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From: UK
Avoiding all that airport bureaucracy is one reason why I have an aeroplane of my own. It's also why the charter and air taxi market is booming. If you knew anything about security you would know that the criminals' documentation will be in apple pie order, though completely fraudulent
I'm not disagreeing with you but it's clear that the authorities are not going to let this continue just because the GA community says 'we're smashing chaps don't you know', you can either work with them or against them, your choice. I choose to listen and support, you may not. The parts of GA you describe have clearly been found to be lacking in oversight, what you are able to purchase to circumnavigate those processes is part of the problem identified. Unfortunate perhaps but that's the way it is, I cannot understand why it's so hard for people to get their head around the notion of potential because that's all that has been identified. No-one has addressed my points about the other aspects of this issue, the potential to traffick individuals to do harm (any harm), the potential to engage in logistical flights in support of something dastardly, recon, delivery systems, et al.
I suspect anyone working against them is simply engaging in a futile struggle that will not carry one iota of public support. Your last point about documentation is interesting however, scrutiny and credibility based questioning is the key to dealing with such issues yet everyone says here that more scrutiny is not needed. All law enforcement investigative questioning techniques are based around the notion of credibility. So, immediately, we are in conflict with conventional investigative techniques.
GA of my sort is not an effective threat in any conceivable way. Someone wanting to fly out of a farm strip would have to have completed the NPPL at least and then worked on strip flying for a bit - that is not the way that terrorists work.
But effective monitoring and engagement reveals the bad eggs, the bad eggs then can be dealt with. GA has a much responsibility here as the authorities, engaging with them is the key IMO. These issue driven agendas drive me mad because they ignore the greater principle of our responsibility to one another and the community around us. GA is a vulnerability like it or not and it's up to us to work with those charged with protecting us, in our little bit of the 'security' world, to mitigate those dangers. The key to this is that 'the powers that be' should be getting out and talking to aviators and getting them onboard. I totally support that idea and it's clearly something they try to do when the summer comes and SB's and Customs staff go out to airfields to speak with the community. Yet then they do this, the same old nonsense comes up in here that all they are doing is wasting taxpayers money on a jolly on a hot day. FFS!! Clearly not the case then as they appear to have been writing reports which were fed back to inform this current proposal.
So, we've already missed one opportunity to inform and engage it would seem.
In my opinion.
It seems to me that the issue is rather overblown, there is no apparent intelligence but there is a vulnerability, I think we all agree on that point. And having identified a vulnerability, it should be discussed and dealt with. How it's dealt with is the issue now. Intractability on our side will not deal with this and all that will happen is something will be imposed upon us that we had no say over. I suspect that why the proposal came up in the first place and I most certainly do not believe that now the 'cat's out of the bag' as it were, the best GA can come up with is 'leave us alone because we're self policing and self regulating and we all know each other'. This will undo GA.
As for tubes and cars, I completely agree with these points.
Cheers,
QP
I'm not disagreeing with you but it's clear that the authorities are not going to let this continue just because the GA community says 'we're smashing chaps don't you know', you can either work with them or against them, your choice. I choose to listen and support, you may not. The parts of GA you describe have clearly been found to be lacking in oversight, what you are able to purchase to circumnavigate those processes is part of the problem identified. Unfortunate perhaps but that's the way it is, I cannot understand why it's so hard for people to get their head around the notion of potential because that's all that has been identified. No-one has addressed my points about the other aspects of this issue, the potential to traffick individuals to do harm (any harm), the potential to engage in logistical flights in support of something dastardly, recon, delivery systems, et al.
I suspect anyone working against them is simply engaging in a futile struggle that will not carry one iota of public support. Your last point about documentation is interesting however, scrutiny and credibility based questioning is the key to dealing with such issues yet everyone says here that more scrutiny is not needed. All law enforcement investigative questioning techniques are based around the notion of credibility. So, immediately, we are in conflict with conventional investigative techniques.
GA of my sort is not an effective threat in any conceivable way. Someone wanting to fly out of a farm strip would have to have completed the NPPL at least and then worked on strip flying for a bit - that is not the way that terrorists work.
But effective monitoring and engagement reveals the bad eggs, the bad eggs then can be dealt with. GA has a much responsibility here as the authorities, engaging with them is the key IMO. These issue driven agendas drive me mad because they ignore the greater principle of our responsibility to one another and the community around us. GA is a vulnerability like it or not and it's up to us to work with those charged with protecting us, in our little bit of the 'security' world, to mitigate those dangers. The key to this is that 'the powers that be' should be getting out and talking to aviators and getting them onboard. I totally support that idea and it's clearly something they try to do when the summer comes and SB's and Customs staff go out to airfields to speak with the community. Yet then they do this, the same old nonsense comes up in here that all they are doing is wasting taxpayers money on a jolly on a hot day. FFS!! Clearly not the case then as they appear to have been writing reports which were fed back to inform this current proposal.
So, we've already missed one opportunity to inform and engage it would seem.
In my opinion.
It seems to me that the issue is rather overblown, there is no apparent intelligence but there is a vulnerability, I think we all agree on that point. And having identified a vulnerability, it should be discussed and dealt with. How it's dealt with is the issue now. Intractability on our side will not deal with this and all that will happen is something will be imposed upon us that we had no say over. I suspect that why the proposal came up in the first place and I most certainly do not believe that now the 'cat's out of the bag' as it were, the best GA can come up with is 'leave us alone because we're self policing and self regulating and we all know each other'. This will undo GA.
As for tubes and cars, I completely agree with these points.
Cheers,
QP
Last edited by qwertyplop; 27th June 2008 at 07:50.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
From: UK
I don't think there's any disagreement between me and qwertyplop in principle. The point is that GA needs to be vigilant and avoid the possibility of being exploited by the baddies.
For most of us the prospect of loss of licence and/or aeroplane is enough deterrent apart from any moral considerations to ensure we keep out of illicit activities. We have seen the occasional bad egg caught drug running and/or people carrying because the relationship between authority and GA is pretty good.
My point is that continued vigilance and co-operation with the authorities in supporting their need for intelligence is by far the most efficient route to dealing with the baddies. Most people in the security services would share this view I think, because they understand that the community has to be their eyes and ears if they are to be successful, simply because they can't be everywhere.
The problem comes from inexperienced ministers and (sadly these days) inexperienced Chief Constables who have a desperate urge to be seen to be doing something, but no idea of what works and what doesn't.
For most of us the prospect of loss of licence and/or aeroplane is enough deterrent apart from any moral considerations to ensure we keep out of illicit activities. We have seen the occasional bad egg caught drug running and/or people carrying because the relationship between authority and GA is pretty good.
My point is that continued vigilance and co-operation with the authorities in supporting their need for intelligence is by far the most efficient route to dealing with the baddies. Most people in the security services would share this view I think, because they understand that the community has to be their eyes and ears if they are to be successful, simply because they can't be everywhere.
The problem comes from inexperienced ministers and (sadly these days) inexperienced Chief Constables who have a desperate urge to be seen to be doing something, but no idea of what works and what doesn't.