Light aircraft "could be bombs"
Has every body foregotten the Anthrax scare post 9-elleven ? It was actualy a big concern for most people - far more-so then aircraft 
....... Unforetunatly it doesnt have the same evening TV news effect as aircraft flying into buildings, probably why most have foregotten all about it 
.......WHO needs an aircraft when you can post it
....... Unforetunatly it doesnt have the same evening TV news effect as aircraft flying into buildings, probably why most have foregotten all about it .......WHO needs an aircraft when you can post it
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Sure there is a risk, but the risk / reward ratio is what most people are concerned about.
What a terrorists want is to change this perceived risk, not the actual statistical risk, and thereby change behaviour of people, eventually changing society.
There's a lot of statistics on the web about actual causes of death in the US. This is just one of them:
10 Leading Causes of Death in the U.S., 2004 — Infoplease.com
Nine out of ten main causes of death in the US are basically health-related. A lot of these can be mitigated by adopting a healthier lifestyle. Yet the government does not do a whole lot in encouraging people to get a better lifestyle, or discouraging unhealthy lifestyles.
The other main cause of death is "unintentional injuries" and if you dig a little deeper into the statistics, you'll find that most of these are motor vehicle incidents - 40.000 deaths per year on average in the US alone. A lot of which can be prevented by wearing seatbelts, not go driving while drunk, not speeding and so forth. Perhaps even by raising the legal limit to drive a car from 16 to 18. Or encouraging people to take public transport, a pushbike or even walk somewhere. But oh, no, let's not do anything about the ultimate display of personal freedom!
Dogs kill way more people each year than sharks in the US. Yet Yaws is seen as a thriller and Lassie as a family movie. There's about as many deaths from furniture catching fire as from plane accidents. Yet, people have no fear whatsoever from sitting (and smoking) on a couch but loads of them have a fear of flying.
Bruce Schneier, in his book "Beyond Fear" identifies the following reasons for the difference between perceived risk and actual risk:
- People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks.
- People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their normal situation
- Personified risks are perceived to be greater than anonymous risks.
- People underestimate risks they willingly take and overestimate risks in situations they can't control
- People overestimate risks that are being talked about and remain an object of public scrutiny.
Terrorists know this and play on these five perceptions so that a relatively minor attack has the greatest possible impact. 9/11 killed 3000 people one day and has so far been a unique occurrence. AIDS alone kills approximately 10.000 people per day, every day of the year (3 million deaths annually, worldwide). Yet, how much money is being spent on airline security vs. AIDS research? How much media attention does the War on Terror get vs. AIDS research? How much pressure does the US government put on countries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and a few others for condemning terrorism and punishing/extraditing terrorist leaders vs. how much pressure does the US government put on the Pope to allow, or even encourage, condom usage in Africa?
A big part of this is the question "can this happen to me"? With driving and with a lot of other activities we feel in control, so we downplay the risks. Other activities, such as going to a busy market square in Israel, or having sex in Africa, we feel we can avoid them. But there are activities, such as flying as a passenger in a commercial aircraft, where we feel at risk, we can't avoid, and don't have control of the situation. Those are the activities that play the terrorists card the best.
Bomb in a small airplane? Most of the general public will never go near a small airplane so that part of the perceived risk is zero. They do go into high-rise buildings but that's something they do every day and there they feel in control. And the payload of a small aircraft is such that even a high explosive (if you can obtain that, get it on board and explode it at the right moment) will do limited damage. Less than what could be obtained with a small van in a parking garage. Yes, it will kill the pilot and a few people on the ground but it won't fundamentally alter the lifestyle of a lot of people. I don't think that makes a good terrorist plot - although it would have an effect on GA, for sure.
I'm not saying we should ignore terrorism altogether. But I see a lot of short-sightedness in the response to perceived terrorism threats. All sorts of silly and counterproductive legislation being passed, and this legislation is then used for non-terrorism-related goals. People, government, politicians, police forces, airlines and a lot of other stakeholders all have different, and sometimes hidden, agendas and find that by invoking the t-word they can advance those agendas.
Fortunately the tide is turning. I read today that there's a Senate hearing about whether customs officials are allowed to search your laptop for suspicious files or not. This was one of the measures that were needed, someone thought, to stop terrorism but whose only effect seems to be to annoy a lot of business travelers. Recently an air marshal was prevented from boarding the flight he was supposed to safeguard, because his name was on the TSA no-fly list, so now, finally, TSA is modifying the way the no-fly list works. And Charlie Black has backed down from, and will possibly be fired over his speculation that a terrorist attack right now would be good for McCains polls.
Last edited by BackPacker; 25th Jun 2008 at 12:52.
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Backpacker - great post.
Remember that politicians like to be seen to be doing things that make them look good in the eyes of the electorate. Is there just a chance that this issue was given lots of spin by the Government to make it look like they are competent in what is a key area for the electorate, law and order?
Personally I'm far to cynical to imagine that this is anything but a cover-up story to get us off issues like the economy, fuel prices, the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan etc., all of which are seen by much of the public as areas of government failure.
Remember that politicians like to be seen to be doing things that make them look good in the eyes of the electorate. Is there just a chance that this issue was given lots of spin by the Government to make it look like they are competent in what is a key area for the electorate, law and order?
Personally I'm far to cynical to imagine that this is anything but a cover-up story to get us off issues like the economy, fuel prices, the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan etc., all of which are seen by much of the public as areas of government failure.
Must say the title of this thread reminds me of Peter Sellers and The Pink Panther series - this has all the ingredients of a Sellers plot!
You said "Bummmm" , no you said "Bummm" then "Wait my hand is on fire! AGGH"
You said "Bummmm" , no you said "Bummm" then "Wait my hand is on fire! AGGH"
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Is there just a chance that this issue was given lots of spin by the Government to make it look like they are competent in what is a key area for the electorate, law and order?
As you said: people want to see the government do something. Waging war is probably the best way of being seen doing something. Even if the war is waged for the wrong reasons, with no clear objective and no exit strategy.
And this was made worse by the fact that until recently the political climate in the US was such that you could not even criticize the US government and presidency for what happened with the WoT, Iraq and Afghanistan, or risk being dismissed as "unpatriottic", "not supporting the troops" etc. In other words you were not allowed to question the status quo, which was brought on by politicians. Of course not being able to question the status quo also meant that the political situation would never change. And that is exactly what a sitting presidency/congress/senate wants, because its means getting reelected.
It's already been done
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A small one-seater autogiro, just 9.5 feet in length, a weight of 250 pounds with a top speed of 160 km/h. It's maximum altitude was 18,000 feet, perfect for recon missions.
Specs
The brightly coloured autogiro was laden with the following mechanisms:
Vehicle: Little Nellie
Owner: James Bond
Status: Stored at Q-Branch
A small one-seater autogiro, just 9.5 feet in length, a weight of 250 pounds with a top speed of 160 km/h. It's maximum altitude was 18,000 feet, perfect for recon missions.
Specs
The brightly coloured autogiro was laden with the following mechanisms:
- Dual, synchronized machine guns
- Left and right forward firing rocket launchers
- Rear firing dual flame throwers with an 80 yard range
- Dual smoke screen dispensers
- ATA heat seeking missiles
- Aerial mines, to be dropped from above the victim
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Ok adding my bit to this thread.
As I have posted before I live in London and use the London Tube system a lot.
Come rush hour masses of people push, shove and squeeze to get onto the tubes which are packed with hundreds of people standing shoulder to shoulder.
Returning from My Business jet flights I drag My overnight case behind me as do many people of all different races and colours.
Where is the security? where are the scanning devices so that my case and others can be checked.
Where are the security people checking whether I have more than 100 ml of fluid?
NON EXISTANT!!!
To the Government Terrorism= Aviation, Aviation =Terrorism end of story. It is about time we said enough is enough stop destroying our industry and making aviation the scapegoat for Government failings.
What a joke all this is. All these politicians and so called law makers can do to justify their non productive jobs is to sit around thinking up even more hairbrained ideas to waste even more public money and to restrict peoples freedom more and more.
In the UK we are one big brother state. We claim our freedoms yet we are more controlled and have less freedom.
Production in the UK went down the drain. Now we have nothing but finanancial markets and leaisure industries and law maker jobs.
The Government want to create another 3000 jobs for what???
Fly into any small airport that takes just a few movements a day and see the army of security staff standing around with nothing to do waiting for the odd Cessna 172 to arrive so that they can jump on its two occupants to save the country.
The uk has gone mad
Pace
As I have posted before I live in London and use the London Tube system a lot.
Come rush hour masses of people push, shove and squeeze to get onto the tubes which are packed with hundreds of people standing shoulder to shoulder.
Returning from My Business jet flights I drag My overnight case behind me as do many people of all different races and colours.
Where is the security? where are the scanning devices so that my case and others can be checked.
Where are the security people checking whether I have more than 100 ml of fluid?
NON EXISTANT!!!
To the Government Terrorism= Aviation, Aviation =Terrorism end of story. It is about time we said enough is enough stop destroying our industry and making aviation the scapegoat for Government failings.
What a joke all this is. All these politicians and so called law makers can do to justify their non productive jobs is to sit around thinking up even more hairbrained ideas to waste even more public money and to restrict peoples freedom more and more.
In the UK we are one big brother state. We claim our freedoms yet we are more controlled and have less freedom.
Production in the UK went down the drain. Now we have nothing but finanancial markets and leaisure industries and law maker jobs.
The Government want to create another 3000 jobs for what???
Fly into any small airport that takes just a few movements a day and see the army of security staff standing around with nothing to do waiting for the odd Cessna 172 to arrive so that they can jump on its two occupants to save the country.
The uk has gone mad
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 25th Jun 2008 at 14:11.
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I agree with the majority opinion here, there is far to much focus / attention / Paranoia from the Government on Aviation as a tool for terrorism, especially when, as has been explained in previous post, there are far more easier targets for terrorists to use.
BUT
One good thing that could possibly stem from this report is a decent border control or proper coastguard. B*llocks to terrorism, a bigger problem this country has is its out of control immigration, lets face it, anyone can get in.
BUT
One good thing that could possibly stem from this report is a decent border control or proper coastguard. B*llocks to terrorism, a bigger problem this country has is its out of control immigration, lets face it, anyone can get in.
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Anybody can get in anyway.
The UK has a few thousand miles of coastline, and you cannot stop a boat getting in, especially after dark.
This is the reality of the "free world".
The country I come from had dual barbed wire fences, about 30m apart, all around it. The fence was electrified, lethally of course. The space between the fences was mostly mined with anti-personnel mines. There was a road all the way along, patrolled regularly by armed guards.
That worked pretty well; short of Special Forces know-how, somebody getting you a foreign passport, or you brown-nosing and creeping around the Communist Party circles for many years until you were "trusted", you would not get out (or in, though of course nobody would want to do that anyway). Even lakes which were shared with the "decadent West" were closely patrolled, with underwater nets, although that is definitely where I would have crossed had I still been there.
The only way large numbers can come into the UK is via conventional overt routes and those are all controlled.
Border controls are meaningless for controlling individual mobility.
All that limits mobility nowadays is controls on employment (illegal work offers pretty limited options, unless you are female and desperate) and the fact that not everybody wants to uproot everything and move to a country where the tabloids, and many people, will hate you and where everything costs a fortune.
The UK has a few thousand miles of coastline, and you cannot stop a boat getting in, especially after dark.
This is the reality of the "free world".
The country I come from had dual barbed wire fences, about 30m apart, all around it. The fence was electrified, lethally of course. The space between the fences was mostly mined with anti-personnel mines. There was a road all the way along, patrolled regularly by armed guards.
That worked pretty well; short of Special Forces know-how, somebody getting you a foreign passport, or you brown-nosing and creeping around the Communist Party circles for many years until you were "trusted", you would not get out (or in, though of course nobody would want to do that anyway). Even lakes which were shared with the "decadent West" were closely patrolled, with underwater nets, although that is definitely where I would have crossed had I still been there.
The only way large numbers can come into the UK is via conventional overt routes and those are all controlled.
Border controls are meaningless for controlling individual mobility.
All that limits mobility nowadays is controls on employment (illegal work offers pretty limited options, unless you are female and desperate) and the fact that not everybody wants to uproot everything and move to a country where the tabloids, and many people, will hate you and where everything costs a fortune.
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A recurring theme of Government action on terrorism (and I don't particularly blame them for this) is that only measures that are practical and easy to implement are generally done. Extra security at airports where security is already in place is relatively easy. Walling off the back of Parliament is quite simple. Putting scanners on the tube? Well that's harder, not really practical (we have knife scanners at some stations and the police use portable ones sometimes but they are more concerned with catching feral youths than terrorists) and although it was talked about I think the government realises that they are never going to make the tube secure.
Lord Carlile is just one 'expert' who happens to have written a report which contains concerns about aviation and terrorism. I actually doubt whether the Government will pay much attention to aspects of the report relating to "lax" security at small airfields and even if they do they will soon realise that attempts to clamp down on private flying will just be impractical....the police don't have the resources and although Lord Carlile raised "concerns" I don't think he has much of an idea of what to do about them.
The police can ask private flyers to be vigilant but much more than that would fail a basic cost and practicality test so I rather doubt we have much to fear in this case...
Lord Carlile is just one 'expert' who happens to have written a report which contains concerns about aviation and terrorism. I actually doubt whether the Government will pay much attention to aspects of the report relating to "lax" security at small airfields and even if they do they will soon realise that attempts to clamp down on private flying will just be impractical....the police don't have the resources and although Lord Carlile raised "concerns" I don't think he has much of an idea of what to do about them.
The police can ask private flyers to be vigilant but much more than that would fail a basic cost and practicality test so I rather doubt we have much to fear in this case...
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Anybody can get in anyway.
The UK has a few thousand miles of coastline, and you cannot stop a boat getting in, especially after dark.
This is the reality of the "free world".
The UK has a few thousand miles of coastline, and you cannot stop a boat getting in, especially after dark.
This is the reality of the "free world".
The only way large numbers can come into the UK is via conventional overt routes and those are all controlled.
All that limits mobility nowadays is controls on employment (illegal work offers pretty limited options, unless you are female and desperate) and the fact that not everybody wants to uproot everything and move to a country where the tabloids, and many people, will hate you and where everything costs a fortune.
If borders are monitored / guarded more closely and frequently and if laws are tightened, it will without doubt make it more difficult for people to come here illegally.
SS
PS. Sorry for the thread drift
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In 2005 the Government estimated the UK had about 500,000 illegal immigrants.
Quite what could be done to improve border control I'm not sure (certainly the plans for a new border police service should be welcomed)....most of Europe after all gave up having border controls ages ago. But then they also mostly have ID cards...arguably making illegal immigrants easier to catch.
Quite what could be done to improve border control I'm not sure (certainly the plans for a new border police service should be welcomed)....most of Europe after all gave up having border controls ages ago. But then they also mostly have ID cards...arguably making illegal immigrants easier to catch.
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So what you are basically saying is... whatever the UK Government does with regards to Border Control... in order to minimalise Illegal Immigration... is essentially pointless?
You need to realise that the "Daily Mail headline" entry techniques (50 Vietnamese packed in some container) account for virtually nothing. The other 99% come in overtly, with legal paperwork.
If you don't like it, campaign for the UK to withdraw from the EU.
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"In a land where the Bobby has had the authority and power for years to shout "Halt, or I shall yell 'Halt!' again!", perhaps you do need a little education on dealing with terrorism."
Sorry, that's how we do things, and, guess what? We don't seem to get shot (by criminals or by the police shooting at criminals) anywhere near as often over here. Unless you are a Brazilian electrician.
I left Belfast in 1988 to go to university in England. My childhood memories are of bombs going off regularly, guns being pointed at me, checkpoints and searches. That was a fairly middle class experience, It was much worse for many others.
Over 30 years of troubles government measures to restrict freedom were opposed. We did not carry identity cards, and would have resisted all efforts to have this imposed. We got on with our lives, with far less of the current hysteria. As did many people in the mainland. The threat to life was much greater, the terrorists much more intelligent and organised. Over 3000 deaths from a population of 1.25 million in NI =750,000 deaths in the USA pro rata if you do the maths. Don't say 9/11 was more effective.
Call me paranoid but a lot of this fear is created and persisted by government as a means of power over the general populace. The Bush administration know this, and play to it openly. The US has a great history of this, from McCarthyism to today. It is no way to run a country. We are at risk of becoming as bad.
Keep realistic measures going on in the background of course, but please do not jump on the bandwagon of unfounded fears or the terrorists truly will have won.
Sorry, that's how we do things, and, guess what? We don't seem to get shot (by criminals or by the police shooting at criminals) anywhere near as often over here. Unless you are a Brazilian electrician.
I left Belfast in 1988 to go to university in England. My childhood memories are of bombs going off regularly, guns being pointed at me, checkpoints and searches. That was a fairly middle class experience, It was much worse for many others.
Over 30 years of troubles government measures to restrict freedom were opposed. We did not carry identity cards, and would have resisted all efforts to have this imposed. We got on with our lives, with far less of the current hysteria. As did many people in the mainland. The threat to life was much greater, the terrorists much more intelligent and organised. Over 3000 deaths from a population of 1.25 million in NI =750,000 deaths in the USA pro rata if you do the maths. Don't say 9/11 was more effective.
Call me paranoid but a lot of this fear is created and persisted by government as a means of power over the general populace. The Bush administration know this, and play to it openly. The US has a great history of this, from McCarthyism to today. It is no way to run a country. We are at risk of becoming as bad.
Keep realistic measures going on in the background of course, but please do not jump on the bandwagon of unfounded fears or the terrorists truly will have won.
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>Keep realistic measures going on in the background of course, but please do not jump on the bandwagon of unfounded fears or the terrorists truly will have won.<
Gasman
The terorists truly did win. The world has changed dramatically since 9/11, The financial costs have been massive not only in putting together the infrastructure and technology to secure airports but in the billions lost in time wasted at airports not just by holiday makers but more importantly by business.
We have also lost by the lack of freedom and the big brother surveillance that now plagues us.
How much of this is due to genuine concerns about security or as with the green issue where the green issue was used to raise tax through the back door,how much has the security issue been used by Government to legitimise their desire to have a controlled state. Who knows.
The green issue had the government rubbing their hands with glee, of course they were saving the planet not their coffer balance.
Now they have security, of course they are saving us not using this issue for creating the big brother state they desire and may I say creating unproductive jobs to conceil the recession and increasing unemployment rates.
But whatever the terrorists have already won big time.
pace
Gasman
The terorists truly did win. The world has changed dramatically since 9/11, The financial costs have been massive not only in putting together the infrastructure and technology to secure airports but in the billions lost in time wasted at airports not just by holiday makers but more importantly by business.
We have also lost by the lack of freedom and the big brother surveillance that now plagues us.
How much of this is due to genuine concerns about security or as with the green issue where the green issue was used to raise tax through the back door,how much has the security issue been used by Government to legitimise their desire to have a controlled state. Who knows.
The green issue had the government rubbing their hands with glee, of course they were saving the planet not their coffer balance.
Now they have security, of course they are saving us not using this issue for creating the big brother state they desire and may I say creating unproductive jobs to conceil the recession and increasing unemployment rates.
But whatever the terrorists have already won big time.
pace
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After all, the United States were founded by a terrorist insurrection against the legitimate authority. One man's terrorist is the next man's freedom fighter.
The boston tea party...that was simply a tax protest.
But whatever the terrorists have already won big time.
The US has a great history of this, from McCarthyism to today. It is no way to run a country. We are at risk of becoming as bad.
The Bush administration know this, and play to it openly.
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SNS3Guppy - your grasp of life in the UK is a shaky as your grasp of history. Talking of the American Constitution, as you were, perhaps you can tell me this. Where did most of the wording come from?
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SN - slightly confused, you chastise us for not taking terrorism as seriously as the USA on this issue, you consider making all flights IFR, yet you tell us that you have much greater flying rights than us- what is it to be?
"Your ability to own firearms, what we call a constitutional right, is so severely curtailed it's pathetic"
Yep, give em guns, tell them they've got a democracy & they will think they are truly free. Just make sure most of them aren't educated enough to work it out. Speaking of democracy, didn't Bush get voted in a second time on the basis of the "war against terror?"?
Pace, I'm afraid I probably agree with you, it saddens me to say
"Your ability to own firearms, what we call a constitutional right, is so severely curtailed it's pathetic"
Yep, give em guns, tell them they've got a democracy & they will think they are truly free. Just make sure most of them aren't educated enough to work it out. Speaking of democracy, didn't Bush get voted in a second time on the basis of the "war against terror?"?
Pace, I'm afraid I probably agree with you, it saddens me to say
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Terrorism is impossible to prevent by increased security. As one door closes, another door opens for those with an evil intent.
The terrorist, having made his point, simply moves on to other tactics another time.
What we should always consider is how far we are actually prepared to tie ourselves in knots (or allow our government to do it for us) because of our fear of terrorism.
The terrorist, having made his point, simply moves on to other tactics another time.
What we should always consider is how far we are actually prepared to tie ourselves in knots (or allow our government to do it for us) because of our fear of terrorism.
Guppy, you dont like Britain or us Brits much do you?
Do you really think that would solve everything to allow us all fire arms? You may still like to live as if you are in the wild west but we do things a little differently over here, we tend to use our heads and not the trigger. Our college students rarely resort to mass gun massacres when they cant make friends...
Do us all a favour and keep your opinions and advice on matters of national security to yourself, or find an American forum to massage your ego.
When you have something sensible to write about an aviation topic then I'm all ears and will beg to your supreme experience.
The Americans giving other countries advise on the prevention of terrorism and national security! You must be having a laugh, surely?!
Dear God!
Do you really think that would solve everything to allow us all fire arms? You may still like to live as if you are in the wild west but we do things a little differently over here, we tend to use our heads and not the trigger. Our college students rarely resort to mass gun massacres when they cant make friends...
Do us all a favour and keep your opinions and advice on matters of national security to yourself, or find an American forum to massage your ego.
When you have something sensible to write about an aviation topic then I'm all ears and will beg to your supreme experience.
The Americans giving other countries advise on the prevention of terrorism and national security! You must be having a laugh, surely?!
Dear God!