EASA proposal to stop N-reg
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From: EuroGA.org
Bose x is always right on this one, for the same reason he would be 'always right' if he said it will rain sometime in 2008.
Yet another (yawn......) proposal to shaft foreign license holders in Europe is a sure bet, every year or two.
Yet another (yawn......) proposal to shaft foreign license holders in Europe is a sure bet, every year or two.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Stick your heads in the sand guys.......
I do like it when I tell you what is coming, you spend pages telling me why I am wrong and then when it does come along tell me that it was inevitable all the time.....
I do like it when I tell you what is coming, you spend pages telling me why I am wrong and then when it does come along tell me that it was inevitable all the time.....
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From: UK
I would be cautiously optimistic that something may happen in the next 6 months to implement some of these recommendaitons
Making the exams available "on-demand"
3rd party testing centres
IMC holders get credit towards the 10hr Basic module
Making the flight training more "competency-based" rather than requiring 50hrs for all candidates.
Do you remember those predictions?
Not having a go, but it seems to me any predictions in this game is a dangerous business. Perhaps it is best to keep the predictions for the pier and deal with the reality.
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From: Dagobah
I'm curious to know why you seem to care so much about this issue anyway bose? I know that the Malibu you have a share in is on the N reg (not sure which reg your shared 172 rocket is on) but as you say on your profile you have loads of licences, tens of thousands of hours and any more licence conversions are unlikely to bother you finacially as you told us all recently you wouldnt get out of bed for less than 170k a year! 
Interestingly I popped your name into google, seems your quite well in with the diving! Sadly my name produces nothing in google
Interestingly I popped your name into google, seems your quite well in with the diving! Sadly my name produces nothing in google
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Making the exams available "on-demand"
3rd party testing centres
IMC holders get credit towards the 10hr Basic module
Making the flight training more "competency-based" rather than requiring 50hrs for all candidates.
Youngskywalker, flattered that you have the time to troll the web looking for me!! Happy to send a photograph.......
You are right it does not effect me as I already have the bases covered including FAA and JAA Class 1 medical's. My Cessna is G-Reg. But where would the fun be if we could not have some debate! Shame it always sinks to personal attacks. Give it 3 more posts and fuji will make it all AOPA's fault.........
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From: Dagobah
I like to do my research!
Mind you, I've finally got a JAA class one (as I figured that was a subtle dig at me!) after all these years so I suppose I ought to just get stuck into the conversion.
Interestingly I heard through the grapevine that the intention is to make the ATPL exams available via computer style testing (similar to the FAA style of computer testing) at the actual training schools, allowing students to sit them as soon as the training provider deems them ready. That would certainly make life a little easier if it happens.
Not everything changes for the worse, it just seems that way at times.
Mind you, I've finally got a JAA class one (as I figured that was a subtle dig at me!) after all these years so I suppose I ought to just get stuck into the conversion.
Interestingly I heard through the grapevine that the intention is to make the ATPL exams available via computer style testing (similar to the FAA style of computer testing) at the actual training schools, allowing students to sit them as soon as the training provider deems them ready. That would certainly make life a little easier if it happens.
Not everything changes for the worse, it just seems that way at times.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Interestingly I heard through the grapevine that the intention is to make the ATPL exams available via computer style testing (similar to the FAA style of computer testing) at the actual training schools, allowing students to sit them as soon as the training provider deems them ready. That would certainly make life a little easier if it happens.
All of the stuff that fuji chose to dig about is in the pipeline but slowed by the takeover by EASA.
Glad you got the Class 1 now though, even though I was not actually digging at you. Far to polite to do that........
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From: UK
As a slight aside, but still on the same subject of N reg etc. Is it possible for a UK JAA licence holder(with JAA IR) to use an N reg SEP(IFR certified) for a private trip within UK and Europe?? Most of it would be VFR but certain sections may be airways.
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From: EuroGA.org
or the state in whose airspace you are flying accepts you flying an N reg aircraft in their airspace on a UK issued licence.
I don't see how a local airspace rule can override an FAA requirement. The FAA holds the jurisdiction over an N-reg and what licenses are required to fly it.
I suppose this one could be argued both ways though.
However, there are not many countries which specifically allow you to fly an N-reg on a UK license. Can you name any?
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From: UK
But where would the fun be if we could not have some debate! Shame it always sinks to personal attacks. Give it 3 more posts and fuji will make it all AOPA's fault.........
Ah yes, AOPA, now there is a subject for many hours of entertaining debate .. .. ..
To be fair you have done well with some of your IR proposals Bose, it is just shame that EASA has got in the way I suspect.
Personally, I always like your posts for the entertainment value!
Ah yes, AOPA, now there is a subject for many hours of entertaining debate .. .. ..
To be fair you have done well with some of your IR proposals Bose, it is just shame that EASA has got in the way I suspect.
Personally, I always like your posts for the entertainment value!
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From: UK
Im just curious as to the legalities of it. Myself and friends are planning a week or two's touring next month or possibly Sept and are looking for a half reasonable machine to do the trip. We are all JAA licence holders and have JAA IR's. We're hoping to fly something a bit different than the average G reg club aircraft, hence I ask about N reg. I may be able to access an N reg Cirrus.
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From: UK
MikeCR
I believe
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. No FAA,
then N reg in the UK VFR only with no European priviliges,
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. FAA without IR
then N reg UK and Europe VFR priviliges,
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. FAA with foreign pilot IR
then N reg UK and Europe VFR and IFR.
In short no European travel without a piggy back FAA or stand alone FAA and no IFR UK or Europe without a FAA piggy back or stand alone and FAA foreign pilot IR conversion.
I think there is some doubt whether a JAA IR would give IMCr priviliges in the UK outside class A in an N reg with or without an FAA but definitely no airways. There may also be some doubt whether IFR in VMC would be legal in the UK with a JAA license but no FAA license in an N reg.
You may well get individual permission from the relevant European authority on written application to operate an N reg in their airspace on your JAA license if you are also a foreign national but whether the FAA would strictly be happy is yet another issue.
I believe
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. No FAA,
then N reg in the UK VFR only with no European priviliges,
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. FAA without IR
then N reg UK and Europe VFR priviliges,
1. UK JAA PPL/IR,
2. FAA with foreign pilot IR
then N reg UK and Europe VFR and IFR.
In short no European travel without a piggy back FAA or stand alone FAA and no IFR UK or Europe without a FAA piggy back or stand alone and FAA foreign pilot IR conversion.
I think there is some doubt whether a JAA IR would give IMCr priviliges in the UK outside class A in an N reg with or without an FAA but definitely no airways. There may also be some doubt whether IFR in VMC would be legal in the UK with a JAA license but no FAA license in an N reg.
You may well get individual permission from the relevant European authority on written application to operate an N reg in their airspace on your JAA license if you are also a foreign national but whether the FAA would strictly be happy is yet another issue.
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From: Europe
I am no legal eagle and certainly don't know anything about the legal aspects of what EASA can and can not do but I hazard a guess that they will struggle to forbid someone to fly in their airspace holding an ICAO compliant license [sic] flying an ICAO compliant aeroplane with an ICAO compliant medical.
The way I read that document is that it accommodates for the situation whereby someone with an ICAO but not EASA/JAR licence wants to fly something registered in another (not same regulator as licence issuer) or EASA/JAR registered aeroplane.
Maybe someone who knows more about European and International law can clarify the situation beyond doubt.
The way I read that document is that it accommodates for the situation whereby someone with an ICAO but not EASA/JAR licence wants to fly something registered in another (not same regulator as licence issuer) or EASA/JAR registered aeroplane.
Maybe someone who knows more about European and International law can clarify the situation beyond doubt.
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From: EuroGA.org
This one goes round and round.
Can a JAA license meet the requirements of FAR 61.3 for flying an N-reg around Europe, despite 61.3 using the word issued (but JAA works on validation) ?
I have seen (and have copies of) two replies from the FAA which directly contradict each other.
This is set to remain one of the common sleeping dogs. The other one being whether one needs an IR to fly an N-reg in UK night which (SVFR excepted) is IFR.
More practically, there are two issues here: legality from the licensing POV, and insurance validity.
You are unlikely to get ramp checked - except in France where they reportedly do it to N-reg pilots. Rumour has it that the Frogs have special briefing packs which show them what an FAA license looks like and what wording should be on it, to fly an N-reg on an IFR flight.
But if there was an incident, the insurance will not pay out if the paperwork is deemed to be duff i.e. the flight itself was illegal. I would love to find out why Graham Hill's estate didn't get the payout; it has been claimed his CofA was invalid but why? Had to be some obscure technicality to catch him out.
Can a JAA license meet the requirements of FAR 61.3 for flying an N-reg around Europe, despite 61.3 using the word issued (but JAA works on validation) ?
I have seen (and have copies of) two replies from the FAA which directly contradict each other.
This is set to remain one of the common sleeping dogs. The other one being whether one needs an IR to fly an N-reg in UK night which (SVFR excepted) is IFR.
More practically, there are two issues here: legality from the licensing POV, and insurance validity.
You are unlikely to get ramp checked - except in France where they reportedly do it to N-reg pilots. Rumour has it that the Frogs have special briefing packs which show them what an FAA license looks like and what wording should be on it, to fly an N-reg on an IFR flight.
But if there was an incident, the insurance will not pay out if the paperwork is deemed to be duff i.e. the flight itself was illegal. I would love to find out why Graham Hill's estate didn't get the payout; it has been claimed his CofA was invalid but why? Had to be some obscure technicality to catch him out.
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From: EuroGA.org
I agree with Fuji's post #36 too.
However, re this case:
UK issued PPL/IR
N-reg
UK airspace
should be good for full IFR (airways) in UK airspace because the UK PPL/IR clearly meets 61.3.
But take this:
German issued JAA PPL/IR
UK issued PPL
N-reg
which would meet FAR 61.3 for VFR only in the UK, and would meet 61.3 for all rights in German airspace.
I don't think the above would be good for all IFR in UK airspace but this is a grey area, which depends on the interpretation of the word "license" in 61.3.
OTOH I would argue that a license includes any ratings on it and thus the IR can be any ICAO IR which is valid on that license.
It's all a bit of a mess when you get into these obscure cases.
However, re this case:
UK issued PPL/IR
N-reg
UK airspace
should be good for full IFR (airways) in UK airspace because the UK PPL/IR clearly meets 61.3.
But take this:
German issued JAA PPL/IR
UK issued PPL
N-reg
which would meet FAR 61.3 for VFR only in the UK, and would meet 61.3 for all rights in German airspace.
I don't think the above would be good for all IFR in UK airspace but this is a grey area, which depends on the interpretation of the word "license" in 61.3.
OTOH I would argue that a license includes any ratings on it and thus the IR can be any ICAO IR which is valid on that license.
It's all a bit of a mess when you get into these obscure cases.
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From: EuroGA.org
I am afraid very little is ever "achieved" on this front. These issues just go round and round.
I am sure some aviation lawyers have formed a view on it but they sure as hell are not posting it on here.
Until something gets clarified, my view is that the applicability of regs like 61.3 to scenarios outside the USA has to be read literally as it is written.
So, for an N-reg, you need a license issued by the owner of each airspace in which you fly, unless you have an FAA license in which case you can go anywhere.
On a slight digression, I have done an awful lot of digging and there really isn't much point in being on the N-reg unless one is using the FAA IR. Maintenance wise, the only significant advantage is the absence of the UK 150hr check but that doesn't affect many private owners! The other big advantage is a better system for modifications but again not many people do that many mods. There are some medical concessions but they go away if you can "somehow" get through the JAA Initial medical because you are allowed Demonstrated Ability after that. EASA is highly likely to do away with this Initial/Renewal difference anyway, since it serves no aviation safety purpose.
Of course, but this normally works in the "prohibition" direction (the example you gave) and would not normally permissively override a restriction imposed by the state of registry. I suppose it's possible (and I know others have argued so) but I have never ever seen the slightest example of such a situation.
I am sure some aviation lawyers have formed a view on it but they sure as hell are not posting it on here.
Until something gets clarified, my view is that the applicability of regs like 61.3 to scenarios outside the USA has to be read literally as it is written.
So, for an N-reg, you need a license issued by the owner of each airspace in which you fly, unless you have an FAA license in which case you can go anywhere.
On a slight digression, I have done an awful lot of digging and there really isn't much point in being on the N-reg unless one is using the FAA IR. Maintenance wise, the only significant advantage is the absence of the UK 150hr check but that doesn't affect many private owners! The other big advantage is a better system for modifications but again not many people do that many mods. There are some medical concessions but they go away if you can "somehow" get through the JAA Initial medical because you are allowed Demonstrated Ability after that. EASA is highly likely to do away with this Initial/Renewal difference anyway, since it serves no aviation safety purpose.
A state has jurisdiction over its own airspace