P1/P1S/PICUS/PUT etc

[Eurotraveller]

Hi,

Like many people I recently found myself totally confused by the old question of club or flying school checkouts and whether to log these hours as P1, P1S, PUT, PICUS etc etc. I was building hours towards the start of my ME rating and needed 70 hours P1, which I thought I had, until I dug into the issue a little deeper.

Working full time and flying relatively infrequently led to me having about 9 hours of flight time 'with an instructor' whilst they checked me out on the company's aircraft to check I was OK for solo hire. To be clear this is a checkout by the holder of a valid SEP rating, within the 90 day rule and legal to carry passengers - merely to check that you are competent before you solo hire. I have had these checkouts over a few years with 2 different flying schools/clubs, with 4 different instructors, and each time I have been instructed to log the checkout as P1S, which I did. The instructor, presumably, logged P1 since he was "supervising".

When I came to count my hours up, it occurred to me that the instructor must have logged these hours as P1, and counted the hours as his "in command" time, as I had. Obviously this can't possibly be right in a single crew aircraft, as we have both taken credit for the command hours. Digging further into LASORS and searching message boards like these we can deduce that P1S is purely for use in the event of a successful skills test, and cannot be used in any other capacity, or for any other company check. PICUS can't be used either. In fact, you can only log either P1 or PUT in this situation.

The result was that I found myself with 9 dubious hours - I could have scrubbed out the "S" and logged them as P1, but then I am 99% sure that my instructor would have logged P1, making my hours 'illegal'. In the event I frantically crammed 9 more hours in solo so that I could sleep at night with a clear conscience! This caused considerable inconvenience and, obviously, expense and worry as I was due to start my MEP a couple of weeks later.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the instructor logging P1, since he signed the aircraft out for the check and ultimately took responsibility for the flight, but my point is that there are several flying schools/clubs out there who clearly have absolutely no idea about what the rules are, and as a result are, possibly inadvertently, misleading students. I must have asked at least 5 instructors at two seperate unaffiliated schools and each were adament that I could log the hours as P1S, and the instructor could log P1.

In my opinion the CAA need to issue guidance on this subject, to the effect that it must be decided prior to the flight whether the instructor or the student logs P1, and the other must log either PUT (if a student) or SNY (if an instructor). Of course everyone is responsible for what they log, and I should have wisened up quicker, but it is confusing and it's easy to be misled or misinterpret the rules.

I'm surprised more people don't get to the end of, say, a multi-engine course, only to find that the CAA reject the application because the hours are logged incorrectly.

I know this is a thorny subject but I nearly came a cropper and I wouldn't like it to happen to anyone else.

[VFR Transit]

I am sure the CAA add this in LASORS!!!!!

VFR

[VFR Transit]

If it is any help i use "P U/T" in my logbook

VFR

[VFR Transit]

Try http://www.anglianflightcentres.co.u...ORS%202007.pdf

Page 53 of 2007 Lasors states to use P U/T

Thanks
VFR

[Flying Farmer]

Whoever signed for the aircraft will be P1/PIC.

[hugh flung_dung]

The rules are pretty clear: for aircraft which are certificated for single pilot operation the only time that P1/S can be used is after a successful flight TEST with an EXAMINER. A check-out is not a test and most FIs are not examiners.
Many people seem not to like the rule but in that case they need to start discussions with the CAA about getting it changed.

Logically, if an FI is checking a qualified pilot the FI will be P1 because they are responsible for the conduct of the flight; the person being checked therefore logs Pu/t. Once again, if you don't like this you should take it up with the CAA.

HFD

[Eurotraveller]

Thanks VFR and FF, I have logged the hours as PUT and did 9 more solo as P1. My point is that there is still obviously misconception out there as flying schools/clubs are telling students to log something different.

HFD - It's not that I don't like the rule, it's just that I don't think everyone appreciates that P1S is only for use in the circumstances you specify, despite what is implied in LASORs, which is not the clearest of documents to say the least!

I'm not having a go at the CAA, rules are rules, I just feel that there is obviously confusion amongst the flying club/training community. Run a search on this topic on PPrune and you'll find a dozen different interpretations of what you can and cannot log.

[flybymike]

I have had many check outs where the instructor has specifically told me that it will be quite in order for me to log the flight as P1 for myself and that he or she will be quite happy, and indeed intend to, just sit there for all intents and purposes, as just passengers. (unless they feel have to intervene) Under these circumstances I have naturally logged the flight as P1, since this is what the pilots agreed to be the case at the outset of the flight. Whether the instructors concerned then also logged the time as P1 for themselves I have absolutely no idea, but it has certainly occurred to me that they may well have done so, either deliberately or unconsciously.
I do not wish to cock a snook at authorty or undermine regulations with a purpose, but in the scenario under discussion where two qualified pilots are flying in an aircraft, and in the event that for whatever reason they both logged P1 time ...then ...does it really matter? does any one actually care...will any one ever find out ?

[BackPacker]

(unless they feel have to intervene)

This is the catch, isn't it? If you, either implicitly or explicitly, agreed from the outset that the "passenger" sitting next to you could intervene if he saw fit at some time, then he's not really a passenger and you're not really "in command", are you?

does any one actually care...will any one ever find out ?

Usually not, no. Usually the instructor will not intervene, the flight completes successfully, nobody ever looks at all three logbooks (2 persons + plane) together.

But if something goes wrong, regardless of whose fault it is (the pilot, the instructor, the aircraft/engine or the bird) the FIRST THING the authorities do is ask for all paperwork regarding the legality of the flight. And if you've logged PIC but at the same time you've agreed that the instructor could take over if and when he saw fit, well, there will be a lot of frowning.

[kylev]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2...ookmarked).pdf

See pages 78-79. As far as I'm aware P/UT can only be logged when undergoing training for a licence issue, i.e. when training for a PPL/CPL with a valid instructor. P1/S can be used under differences training for a new type under the same type rating (e.g. for SEP, doing a checkout on a PA28 after having flown a C152)

However, the issue of check flights - usually carried out for insurance purposes is still a bit ambiguous. I log the hours as P1/S. However I've also logged hours on a new a/c as P1/S, which apparently shouldnt have been done. I'm not going to change it though.

[flybymike]

Speaking entirely hypothetically of course, "If something goes wong" then I am sure that despite any prior agreements, all the paperwork aspects of the flight will have been agreed and recorded in the various log books before any investigation of paperwork takes place.

[Hamish 123]

How about this then; I joined a flying group with a PA28-181. I had previously flown PA28-140s and PA28-161s. The group wanted an instructor to check me out, so we did a pretty straightforward local flight, few stalls, steep turns, PFL, then 3 circuits. She signed my logbook, but told me to enter the time as P1S. My SEP rating is due next January. Will this 1.5 hours count towards my 6 hour "in command" qualifier?

[Eurotraveller]

Hi Hamish,

I'm sorry but I don't think it will. P1S is only for the successful completion of a skills test and not club checkouts. Your instructor can't log P1 and instruct you to log P1S. Unless she logged SNY, in which case you can log P1, you have to log PUT. Although you perhaps weren't strictly "under training" there is no other legal option.

Unfortunately like me you have been told to log these hours under a classification which isn't legal. Again I understand that we are all ultimately responsible for what we log but in my opinion this is more evidence that the classification of P1S isn't widely understood by some flying clubs and instructors who may be misleading students.

[russellmounce]

Hamish, I had exactly the same sort of check, moving from a PA-28 to a PA-38, the instructor checked me out and told me to log it as P/UT.

The club insurance policy states that if a pilot has not flown with the club for more than 6 weeks, a check with an instructor is required. On this check, the instructor told me he was just a passenger and to log it as P1/S. I looked into this, and told him this was only for exams. He hadn't realised, and told me to log it as P1 instead.

The use of P1/S can be confusing, and I do not think that all instructors know exactly what it means. I think it could be made clearer.

[GusHoneybun]

The definitve answer was given by Flying farmer,

Whoever signed for the aircraft will be P1.

Unless you sign for an aircraft, and not under a skills test, it's Pu/t. It's really that simple.

[Julian]

This has been done to death numerous times, do a search and read the previous threads, also...

Whoever signed for the aircraft will be P1.

...is not correct as, again as has previously been discussed, PIC can change DURING the flight.

J.

[BackPacker]

Plus, "signing for an aircraft" is not a legal requirement in the GA world, AFAIK. In any case, within our club, we don't.

[Justiciar]

Page 53 of 2007 Lasors states to use P U/T

That is not what it says. Pu/t relates to a pilot undergoing training for a licence or rating. The applicable provisions are in JAR.FCL, which defines exactly what you should record in your log book. A check flight is not training. On such a flight you are either P1 or nothing.

[Hamish 123]

In my case, no one "signed" for the aircraft as such. It's my plane (well, a proportion of it), I filled in the plane's flying record book, naming myself as captain. And to complicate matters, when I was checked out on a PA28-140, the plane's owner sat beside me, wasn't a QFI, and was happy simply to see I was reasonably proficient. I logged this time as P1.

So, being checked out on two different variants of type, means that, due to the presence of an instructor in one, different hours are logged . . . .

[Justiciar]

So, being checked out on two different variants of type, means that, due to the presence of an instructor in one, different hours are logged . . .

You have highlighted the very point, namely that a "check ride" has no legal status at all. It is usually required either for insurance or the rules of a flying group. You do not need an instructor to be checked out on an aircraft (there may be different requirements when you have an aircraft which requires a type rating but I am talking about SEP).