Landing Fees - Value for Money ?.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Posted elsewhere, I found this in the remote regions of my logbook the other day;



I bet it's a bit more now, even allowing for inflation. It was a short stop, sufficient to remove some "water ballast" and refuel the aeroplane.

[niknak]

Dave W.

I haven't read the article, but the NWI landing fees have been significantly reduced, instead of the flat fee of ££££ its now around £8.80 per half tonne + VAT.

Which is why we probably didn't get a pay rise this year....

[IO540]

Norwich's bill for "yellow jacket staff" is probably around £1M, most of them clearly superfluous.

It has very few 'large' movements and plenty of opportunity for GA. Only a total mug manager would try to exclude GA traffic. Everything is a fixed cost (ATC, the yellow jackets, etc) and the more you can get towards paying those the better.

Also the security is way overdone. The terrorists are not going to target Norwich. You could blow up most of that part of the UK and few people would notice. The obvious targets are .... more obvious!

[Rod1]

Norwich appears to be an example of an arrogant regional airport which whacked up its fees, got shut of most GA and then found it had nothing to replace it. It has now reduced the fee to what appears to be a sensible level and had made noises that it wants us back. I have not read the Pilot article yet.

Rod1

[bjornhall]

If you need 2000m, full ILS and ATC etc then it is obviously going to cost.

There you have it... It's "obviously" going to cost, i.e., the customers accept that it will cost, i.e., it will cost.

You could just as well say: "Since you don't need all that stuff, you obviously shouldn't pay for it. But since it is impractical to build two dozen airfields right next to each other, with different runway lengths, IFR navaid levels, ATC services and differing landing fees, you get to use the full facilities for the cost of what you'd actually need."

That approach works perfectly well in other European countries, to everyone's benefit. It would work just as well in the UK.

[Rod1]

“But since it is impractical to build two dozen airfields right next to each other,”

Have you looked at the number of small airfields / strips in the area? OK, not 24, but it is a significant amount of choice. I agree that landing fees for VFR traffic at regional airfields should be about £10, but if it is not you do have a choice other than pay, pay, pay.

Rod1

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I say again: if I were to propose a large hike in council tax, or a large cut in other services, so as to be able to subsidise a municipal airport, then guess what ... I'd lose my seat, and not be in a position to implement such a policy.

It's called "democracy". It's the UK voters who don't want to subsidise what they see as a rich man's hobby. One can only assume that voters in other countries take a different view.

[niknak]

IO540

As you well know, security levels are dictated by the Government not the airports, if the airports failed to implement them they face closure and very heavy fines.
The representitives of G/A in the UK have miserably failed to get anything done, indeed if they did anything to get around this problem which affects all airport staff, not just you.
Additionally, you're clearly ignorant of what goes on at NWI and your post is based purely on gossip and conjecture.

Red 1.

Much the same goes for you, if you've got something to say, make it factual, not a rumour you heard in the pub, put up or shut up.

[Mike Cross]

As you well know, security levels are dictated by the Government not the airports

and there was me thinking it was Annex 9 and Annex 17 of the Chicago Convention and ICAO Doc 8973. Still you learn something new every day.

[lauchiemb]

it is fair enough

All these charges that we pay seem pretty good value for money. For £22 you can land your aircraft on a huge runway with fantastic fire cover. Much safer than if you land on a farm strip and pay nothing or a fiver.

I can see why your man at Norwich airport might say that he does not need our business. What they want is a 737 packed with passengers who will have a meal, buy drinks and spend money in the shops. Compare that with a 152 with instructor and student who want a cheap cup of tea, free biscuits and sit in a portacabin chatting to similar minded people.

[Mike Cross]

The original question was "Value for money?"

That's a subjective judgement on the part of the customer. A round of golf with a top professional for a hundred quid might be seen as excellent value by someone keen on golf, but not by me.

If you're selling goods you need to offer them at a price which your customers see as value for money or they won't buy.

Stelios knows the answer. He doesn't charge everyone the same price, he markets his product and sets his prices so he gets good load factors. Some people will have paid a lot and some a little for exactly the same product. If the airports were somehow able to take a leaf out of his book they could up their revenue. They know when the scheduled traffic is due in and out so why not fill in the gaps? Cardiff manage it, they got me in 15 minutes before Concorde! Can't remember how much it was, around 13 or 14 quid? In my book that was good value for money.

[bjornhall]

I say again: if I were to propose a large hike in council tax, or a large cut in other services, so as to be able to subsidise a municipal airport, then guess what ... I'd lose my seat, and not be in a position to implement such a policy.

It's called "democracy". It's the UK voters who don't want to subsidise what they see as a rich man's hobby. One can only assume that voters in other countries take a different view.

1. I find it somewhat unlikely that an election would be decided on that particular issue only. You'd come under criticism from someone, sure, but politicians come under criticism for how they tie their shoe laces anyway, so...

2. While there might be exceptions in a big country far out west, I think it is rare to see an instrument airport with 2,000+ m of asphalt being built solely to cater for rich men in PA28s... In countries where airports are subsidised, you'll see government money spent on airports with scheduled traffic that form part of the countries' national infrastructure; communities and regional administration spending money on smaller airports where they might want scheduled traffic or to cater for taxi and business travel, considered vital parts of the community's or region's infrastructure; and at most token sums to non-instrument (= non-commercial) airports with <1,000 m runways (i.e., the "rich men's toys" airfields...). The idea to build a mini-Heathrow using tax money for the sole purpose of handling light GA traffic would be equally bizarre to voters outside the UK! It's not done that way.

3. Subsidising is only one way to keep landing fees down for light GA, and not the most important or desirable one. The way to go, and how it is done elsewhere, is to better differentiate landing fees in such a way that small planes don't get to pay huge fees for services they don't need. With the current British system, light GA daring to set foot on a large regional airport subsidise the facilities that only larger aircraft need. And then I'm not talking about hard runways and fire support; I'm talking about 2,000 meters of runway and CAT 7 fire support for a PA28.

[Leezyjet]

PilotDom

As I said, I was only the passenger, I had not been checked out to fly in the UK at the time, I did that 2 days later, so left all the planning to the PIC and offered to pay when we got there - neither had been before and he got the airport info from the AIP website which IIRC doesn't show landing fees so the planning was actually fine thank you, and why not go there ?. It's close to where we fly out of and is a reasonable distance to go when one only has the a/c for 4 hours.

What is the actual status with landing fee's for SEP's at Norwich ?. I was tempted to go the other day but saw on the airport website that the minimum invoice fee is £40 so ended up going to another field in East Anglia instead.

A and C

We did that 2 weeks ago with the ones from this months pilot, visited Beverley and Full Sutton. But it's a long time to wait when hour building until the next issue comes out to get more vouchers.

Also with club rules we can only visit licensed airfields which narrows it down a bit.

Coventry was very reasonable when we visited in the 152, although the price does seem to jump up a fair bit if one goes in a 172 and that has all the kit that Cambridge has yet is a lot cheaper. The guy who we paid the fee to said that a 172 and the new generation of VLJ's are in the same price band which seems a bit bonkers to me.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I find it somewhat unlikely that an election would be decided on that particular issue only.

I suspect I know more about the mechanics of winning elections than you do. In my ward our majority last year was twelve. I can absolutely assure you that we can do without being seen as defenders of rich men's hobbies, particularly by the pensioners living in council flats. It would only take seven people to vote the other way ...

better differentiate landing fees ...

Yes, indeed, airfields can take views on whether the want to charge particular classes of customers "gross cost plus profit margin" or "marginal cost with no profit margin" or something in between, and that's up to them. If the airfield is owned by a family firm they've got more freedom than if they've got outside shareholders to answer to under company law.

[bjornhall]

Well Gertrude, what you say mightsound convincing, if it wasn't for the fact that the rest of the world manages just fine without UK level landing fees... But if you're happy with paying tens of euros for a landing, good for you!

However, if you think it is necessary, a look outside your own country will rapidly prove you wrong.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But if you're happy with paying tens of euros for a landing, good for you!

I don't think that I personally have ever paid more than £15 actually, with £10 being most common. (I don't pay per landing at Cambridge, it's included in the hire. And Norwich was lots cheaper when I did my QXC in 1988. Occasionally I give the airfield more than they're asking for, as they obviously need the money more than I do and I wouldn't like them to go bust and close down. Anyway, if you're spending £300 on a day out what's the big deal about a £20 landing charge??)

[Peter Lewis]

Bjornhall is quite right. How depressing to see people as ever defending the indefensible in rip-off Britain. Taxpayers don't subsidise GA in America. On the contrary, GA stimulates economic growth and creates jobs which benefit everyone. American airports and ATC are funded by taxation on fuel, whereas the (much higher) tax revenues on our fuel are wasted by our tax and spend government on God knows what.

[IO540]

Have you looked at the number of small airfields / strips in the area? OK, not 24, but it is a significant amount of choice. I agree that landing fees for VFR traffic at regional airfields should be about £10, but if it is not you do have a choice other than pay, pay, pay.

Unfortunately most of them are way too short for many types. I suppose one could run a C182 from most 400m strips but not everybody wants a C182. Some people like to fly proper planes with proper mission capability

If planning was suitably modified to enable ~ 800m full-planning strips to be set up, that would be something else. Then you would need a mogas STC for the engine...

Additionally, you're clearly ignorant of what goes on at NWI and your post is based purely on gossip and conjecture.

I've been running businesses for over 30 years and I know the basic principles, which never change. I go to Norwich and I see an army of staff, each one probably costing the airport some £40k total including employer's NIC (a fixed cost), 'security' offices (another fixed cost), loads of admin buildings (more fixed costs). Yet the 'security' argument is bogus because there is a bunch of flying schools / GA facilities that have easy access to airside, and anybody well connected will taxi / access via these. The fence is a joke - a child could climb over in seconds. It's all a pretence that something is being done. Then they confiscate your toothpaste on the way to the PA28 - it takes TWO security operatives to perform that complex task, and they enjoy every minute of it while looking really important, only to burst out in laughter the moment you start walking down the corridor.

From a mile away, you can see somebody has built up a nice empire there.

They forget the whole point of the place is to process planes and passengers. Instead they have emulated Gatwick/Heathrow, but they have maybe 1% of the traffic and 1% of the terrorist risk.

Whoever set up the ops at Norwich should be sent to some place like Cannes, to see how everything can be streamlined yet everything still gets x-rayed properly on the way out.

Do notice I am not moaning about pricing. However, at the price charged, the process should be very well organised.

[stocker]

I just got back from lunch with a flying friend and we were discussing the same topic as this thread.
His comments were short and not very sweet but generaly I have to agree with him. We have the oportunity to gather the information prior to our visit and if we are not happy with the cost then go somewhere else.
If you had your own Runway or Strip that required maintainance, manning, licencing etc then how much would you charge?

I really dont know how much would be fare but I`d be looking at covering costs and then some.....

If only I had that luxury..................

In addition to I0540`s last comments I remember not that long ago having arrived at Wick and sat having a toastie in full view of the security guards (both of them), my wife and I dusted the crumbs from our shirts and wandered back over to access the apron again but not before we had emptied our pockets, removed our shoes and answered several questions about our visit.

I didn`t mind the whole process but it did seem a bit much just for a wee toastie up North.

[warrior28]

Best value in IN uk ....cleethorpes International Airport !!
or North Coates ...
3 quid and a cuppa and a real welcome.... good pub not too far for
your thirsty pax