Blackpool 3/2/07
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Frontlefthamster
Hear! Hear! Interesting though the debate about command is, I don't think it is relevant to Mr Walker's reason for initialising this thread. The AAIB report does not allude to command being in dispute, nor does it suggest that it should have been.
I think what FLH has to say here is far more pertinent to the case in point and to this thread in particular, although I think Radar is right as to the reasons the thread has drifted.
Hear! Hear! Interesting though the debate about command is, I don't think it is relevant to Mr Walker's reason for initialising this thread. The AAIB report does not allude to command being in dispute, nor does it suggest that it should have been.
I think what FLH has to say here is far more pertinent to the case in point and to this thread in particular, although I think Radar is right as to the reasons the thread has drifted.
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There is alot of interest (local at Blackpool and further a-field) in the circumstances surrounding this crash. The PIC/P1 aspect has been well discussed in public. Further aspects - specifically the big picture, what went on before and after the flight, has not.
David Walker was not inviting speculation or comment, but just letting interested parties know when the inquest starts. Further information about the case will then become a matter of public record.....
David Walker was not inviting speculation or comment, but just letting interested parties know when the inquest starts. Further information about the case will then become a matter of public record.....
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'Would you jump into the fire if I asked you too?'
Have you seen those corporate team building sessions which involve walking a bed of red hot coals?
Peer pressure is an amazing thing
SD
Have you seen those corporate team building sessions which involve walking a bed of red hot coals?
Peer pressure is an amazing thing
SD
Pompey till I die
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what a total ******
Mr Walker
I understand your grief and sympathise completely. I also knew Roy, who died with your son.
I'm not so sure this public site is somewhere you may want to attempt to try and highlight your mission.
The AAIB report is quite codemning in regards to some poor judgements and operations outside of the priviledges of the licenses held by those involved.
I hope you are able to accept some realities and mourn successfully rather than become some Al Fayed character.
Both Andy and Roy are sadly missed. There is not one father who does not understand your loss.
I understand your grief and sympathise completely. I also knew Roy, who died with your son.
I'm not so sure this public site is somewhere you may want to attempt to try and highlight your mission.
The AAIB report is quite codemning in regards to some poor judgements and operations outside of the priviledges of the licenses held by those involved.
I hope you are able to accept some realities and mourn successfully rather than become some Al Fayed character.
Both Andy and Roy are sadly missed. There is not one father who does not understand your loss.
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The 10k ATPL “passenger” was also the CFI’s business partner and joint CFI for the FTO. When Andy Walker did his training both took money from Andy in return for their professional training, expertise and advice. It is not surprising to me that Andy (120 hrs) felt assured everything would be OK as he was informed that one CFI had organised the flight and the other CFI would be going with him, another instructor (who turned out to be an NPPL)would be along for the return trip.
It beggars the question:- on his PPL coarse did their jointly owned FTO give him all the information concerning flight safety and license privileges .
What are the odds on finding a CFI that that would encourage a trip like that? unbelievably Andy found two to sanction this nightmare scenario?
Sadly Andy’s’ bonus for accepting the offer was, he could book some P1 and according to the experts that makes him to blame
It beggars the question:- on his PPL coarse did their jointly owned FTO give him all the information concerning flight safety and license privileges .
What are the odds on finding a CFI that that would encourage a trip like that? unbelievably Andy found two to sanction this nightmare scenario?
Sadly Andy’s’ bonus for accepting the offer was, he could book some P1 and according to the experts that makes him to blame
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However the last person that the crew talked to on that dreadful night was a controller, who after being asked have you any suggestions, his reply 'get an aircraft with some equipment in' not what the poor lads wanted to hear, and mysteriously all recorded information has been pushed under the mat in all AAIB publications and comments on here and the Flyer thread.
.Mentioning the guys name though Aztec Driver especially on here, might be a bit rough though
.
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I am closer to this than any one dares to mention, for reasons that will be brought to light later, I am advised not to quote or respond to this RUMOUR Network.
As much as this was a sad event and a needless death I can't see why all the usual cloak and dagger and conspiracies are floating around.
The young man keen for hours took the opportunity of some free/cheap flying. He succumbed to peer pressure and did not fulfill diligently his duties as pilot in command. He undertook an illegal flight. They then fell to poor planning and 'get home itus' rather than diverting when they had the opportunity.
Any other discussion is just trying to find someone to blame. Now if you can provide evidence that Mr Walker was being held hostage and forced to fly the aircraft then I would be interested to see it. But it seems clear to me that simple pilot error and poor preparation on the part of the crew cost them their lives.
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I find this last bit interesting. 'Professionalism' aside, is such a comment indicative of some wider issues at Blackpool. For example, was it common practice for people to make approaches around when the weather was well below Cat 1 minima? Had ATC seen (encouraged) similar occurrences in the past without reporting them? Was/is there an endemic press-on-itis?
Just a thought.
Edited - Bose is correct. Ultimately the responsibility lies with P1. However, if P1 doesn't know any better because that is the environment he has grown up in, then there is still a need for some soul searching.
Just a thought.
Edited - Bose is correct. Ultimately the responsibility lies with P1. However, if P1 doesn't know any better because that is the environment he has grown up in, then there is still a need for some soul searching.
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Edited - Bose is correct. Ultimately the responsibility lies with P1. However, if P1 doesn't know any better because that is the environment he has grown up in, then there is still a need for some soul searching.
But there is a big difference between soul searching and a full blown witch hunt.
As I said unless the pilot was forced to make the flight under duress then the responsibility for legality and planning lay with him. As did the ability to divert. There is no evidence that he was forced not to divert by the other pilot when they knew the conditions were deteriorating so again poor judgement.
This just boils down to poor judgement, pure and simple.
As for the comments of the controller unfortunate, but I suspect that they have beaten themselves up about an ill timed comment. But once again how does a controllers inappropriate comment change the fact that the flight was illegal and badly planned?
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I find this last bit interesting. 'Professionalism' aside, is such a comment indicative of some wider issues at Blackpool. For example, was it common practice for people to make approaches around when the weather was well below Cat 1 minima? Had ATC seen (encouraged) similar occurrences in the past without reporting them? Was/is there an endemic press-on-itis?
But once again how does a controllers inappropriate comment change the fact that the flight was illegal and badly planned?
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looking back the comments of the controller may sound harsh. But if the pilots had not declared an emergency, the comments could be seen not as a joke but a "wink" to perhaps attempt at relaxing the pilots.
I agree with Bose-X. P1 is P1 and there are no exceptions. Executing an illegal flight and failing to take the right and timely (diversion) decisions is his responsibility.
On the subject of (only) having flown 120 hours, that still represents perhaps a year or more of many flight as P1, so although relatively low hours, it is plenty of hours to appreciate what P1 means.
Closure for the Walker family I hope will consist of the acceptance their son died because he took the wrong decisions doing what he loved doing, with contributary factors letting himself being influenced by irresponsible outsiders and deteriorating weather
It remains a very sad story
I agree with Bose-X. P1 is P1 and there are no exceptions. Executing an illegal flight and failing to take the right and timely (diversion) decisions is his responsibility.
On the subject of (only) having flown 120 hours, that still represents perhaps a year or more of many flight as P1, so although relatively low hours, it is plenty of hours to appreciate what P1 means.
Closure for the Walker family I hope will consist of the acceptance their son died because he took the wrong decisions doing what he loved doing, with contributary factors letting himself being influenced by irresponsible outsiders and deteriorating weather
It remains a very sad story
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Frontlefthamster
I have read your posts and respect your views. Maybe you ll respect mine also.
I understand what you hope for. But from a pilots perspective (and that s what this forum is for) there is one issue more important than all others that should be learned from this thread.
It is that as the pilot in command designate (irrespective of pressures put on you from others) you ARE pilot in command and the buck stops with you. I ve seen postings of people on this thread which seem to doubt this and it is a receipe for disaster.
And i wish Mr Walker and all the family and friends of the pilot strength and hope they will find closure to their grief insofar possible.
I have read your posts and respect your views. Maybe you ll respect mine also.
I understand what you hope for. But from a pilots perspective (and that s what this forum is for) there is one issue more important than all others that should be learned from this thread.
It is that as the pilot in command designate (irrespective of pressures put on you from others) you ARE pilot in command and the buck stops with you. I ve seen postings of people on this thread which seem to doubt this and it is a receipe for disaster.
And i wish Mr Walker and all the family and friends of the pilot strength and hope they will find closure to their grief insofar possible.
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There are important issues on the understanding of who is PIC and what is PIC accountable for. However, equally, reducing the issues to solely PIC decision making doesn't address the very real issues alleged. Specifically, that the two 'CFIs' who trained Mr Walker encouraged the flight, arranged for a further 'pilot/instructor' to accompany Mr Walker on his return flight, and one of the 'CFIs' accompanied Mr Walker outbound - in a context implying that the accompanying 'pilots' addressed the known lack of currency for Mr Walker. (summarised from boy entrant's post and comments in the AAIB report)
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All valid points. But Mr Walker was still in Command and had the opportunity to say no. He succumbed to peer pressure from more experienced people.
Their actions in encouraging him were wrong and there are moral issues around it. But the PIC could have just said no. At 120hrs he should have known the rules and abided by them. The PIC could have quite easily flown 3 circuits before departure and the flight would have been legal. As a licensed pilot he knew the requirements and should have insisted that he did this. He could have done these with the CFI who was onboard for the outbound leg. That covers the legality of the flight.
The next is the poor decision making displayed by the crew, they did not lift enough fuel and they did not divert, that was poor planning and poor command decision. They did not die on the outbound flight they died on the return. They could have diverted at any time, why did they not do so? Was the CFI involved in that decision making process? Hardly when he was not on board. The crew choose to push on and it cost them their lives.
The CFI's should not have encouraged him to bend the rules, that was just stupid, but what was more stupid was the subsequent poor decision making.
Their actions in encouraging him were wrong and there are moral issues around it. But the PIC could have just said no. At 120hrs he should have known the rules and abided by them. The PIC could have quite easily flown 3 circuits before departure and the flight would have been legal. As a licensed pilot he knew the requirements and should have insisted that he did this. He could have done these with the CFI who was onboard for the outbound leg. That covers the legality of the flight.
The next is the poor decision making displayed by the crew, they did not lift enough fuel and they did not divert, that was poor planning and poor command decision. They did not die on the outbound flight they died on the return. They could have diverted at any time, why did they not do so? Was the CFI involved in that decision making process? Hardly when he was not on board. The crew choose to push on and it cost them their lives.
The CFI's should not have encouraged him to bend the rules, that was just stupid, but what was more stupid was the subsequent poor decision making.
But Mr Walker was still in Command and had the opportunity to say no.
The pilot responded by leaving a message to say that
he could not carry out the flight because he was out of
current practice. However, the CFI called him again
clarifying that he did not mean for him to fly solo but
that a more experienced pilot would accompany him.
It was not established whether the pilot understood this
to mean that the ‘experienced pilot’ was an instructor.
However, the pilot agreed to this arrangement and shortly
afterwards went to the airport.
I'm still keen to hear what evidence, other than the testimony of the CFI, exists to demonstrate that Mr Walker was aware that he was in command.
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The booking out sheet at the home of the aircraft has two clear entries , one for captain and another for pax. This would have been available to the AAIB .
As an aside , with regards to the "wink" to put the pilots at ease , Hogwash ! I have spent a lot of time flying at Bpool and the attitude of some of the controllers towards GA is at times despicable . Flippant sarcastic comments are more of the norm than a rarety . If you wish to experience a somewhat megolomaniacal attitude and at times downright rude service fly into blackpool .
As an aside , with regards to the "wink" to put the pilots at ease , Hogwash ! I have spent a lot of time flying at Bpool and the attitude of some of the controllers towards GA is at times despicable . Flippant sarcastic comments are more of the norm than a rarety . If you wish to experience a somewhat megolomaniacal attitude and at times downright rude service fly into blackpool .