Starting my PPL

[youaintseenme]

So then.........learn to fly in a cramped underpowered C152 with wings that get in the way during turns

or in a roomy comfortable more powerful PA28?

I know which one i'd choose

Seriously tho', it's just a matter of what you like and can afford. Don't get caught up in all the drama...

[bjornhall]

As for which aircraft was designed as a trainer, it's pretty simple; the PA38 and the Warrior are both designed as such, they just go about it differently. And for some reason, one was only produced for 5 years, the other has been built for decades; some hint perhaps as to which is the superior trainer in most people's opinion...

Which is another reason to favor the PA28; if you're lucky you could get a Warrior III, or at least a recent Warrior II in good condition; not some old beat up wreck of a 152 or PA38 that students have been puking in for 25+ years...

On a different note, are there actually aircraft used as trainers that are unsuitable as such? What always ends up being discussed is the relative merits of the 152/172/PA28/PA38/DA40, but so what? They are all excellent trainers, so makes no difference whatsoever...

[poss]

Perfect trainer , lovely and stable good predictable stall chracteristics and vaer capable .

I wouldn't call predictable stall characteristics a good feature of a trainer. Training in a aeroplane that you can easily predict stalls in means that transitioning to aeroplanes in which stalls are a lot easier to get into and less predictable you will be in trouble. Mainly a reason why a few pilots will not fly a Tomahawk. Warriors are not certified for spins either meaning that you miss out on a very important lesson that, even though is not part of the PPL syllabus, a good instructor would want you to know via demonstration or, if you want to learn, to be able to recover from one.
Our club has a very well maintained pair of Tomahawk MK2's (the mark of tomahawk that the tail didnt fall off when spinning in) and Piper Warror II... i've flown a different range of planes and I would recommend the PA38 out of them all as a trainer of choice, i'd say why but no doubt you've heard it all before.

[homeguard]

The Warriors

G-EMMA

Stop being so rude.

The Warrior was never intended to be an ab-intio trainer as such. Its market was perhaps akin to the Reps car, that is a Ford Escort or Mondeo. Piper offered luxury interiors in Velour or leather as an option to suit that market. Cessna stayed with the flying farmer. Piper also went to great lengths to remove characteristics that the commuter buyer didn't like - such as a wing drop at the stall and they built in as much stability as possible. Unlike its predecessor the Cherokee 140 which is much less stable, the aeroplane has never been cleared for deliberate spinning which at the time was a mandatory exercise in the PPL syllabus. As a retrofit little wedge things were added to the wing leading edge to minimise any tendency to a wing drop at the stall. Some of us Instructors were a bit annoyed at the time.

The Cadet was designed when Piper were going bust, presumably to ease cash flow and I believe credit from suppliers was tight. Manufactoring costs were reduced by not having a luggage door and no third window. The aircraft was sold without an engine/propellor, radios. The interior was kept simple. The panel became a bare flat metal sheet. The aircraft was sold very cheaply indeed but the buyer arranged with the dealer for the engine fit and customised the panel and radio spec. The package was very attractive to flying clubs looking to buy new aircraft on a tight budget.

Having four seats allows clubs to use the aircraft both as a trainer and also a tourer. The C150, slow and only two seats, can be cramped but otherwise it is a dedicated classroom as is the PA38. The PA38 is roomier with greater leg room but had many faults.

Emma, please enjoy your flying training and the Warrior. Whatever the arguments if you have fallen in love with the Warrior, wonderful. I wish you all the best and I intend to say nothing that will take the edge off your obvious enjoyment.

[blackdog of norwich]

Hi 321 Wilson,

Would you be off to South Africa by any chance?

Black Dog

[PompeyPaul]

Afternoon

Im new to the forum and would like to say Hello.

I'm hopefully starting my P.P.L soon, however my local airfield only teaches on PA-28 warrior

I would like to hear your opinion on this aircraft, I've flown in one before and i loved it.

thanks for your time

Wilson

Hi Wilson, like others said, welcome to your PPL training. It really is an exciting thing to get involved in and before you know it you'll have a brown wallet from the CAA with your newly minted PPL inside.

I would agree with what most people above said, apart from the squabbles between G-EMMA et al (which looked dreadfully dull to wade through) but only offer the follow idea to the melting point:

I did all of my training in a PA28 and it was a great training aircraft. Now I've graduated and have built a few hours (yes, to the golden ones on pprune.com I'm still a rookie) I'm looking at hiring at more providers than my FTO. The only thing is there seem to be far, far, far more C172s out there than PA28's for hire.

Given my time again, and if I had an infinite set of choices, I would choose to train in a C172 since it gave me more scope after I had got the license.

Yes you can convert with a few hours, but I'm just so comfortable with the warrior and know the Vx, Vy numbers straight away (you'll learn about those during your training) where as I'm not comfortable that I would on a C172 even with 5 hours difference training.

If you only have a choice of PA28 or C152, and cost isn't an issue, then there's probably enough difference between the C152 & C172 to not really benefit you taking the cessna. Certainly the Pa28 will be "easier" because there's much more room available and so makes it easier to mess about with maps (again golden ones, I know what's going to kill you isn't inside the aircraft and you should be looking outside etc etc) which makes the training just that little bit easier.

If there were a C172 available though, I'd choose to train on that.

And no, before the golden ones come on and start screaming that statistics and the CAA and some bloke down the pub who invented flying show that there are more PA28s than cessna's about the place, I'm just saying from my point of view and I haven't done a detailed survey.

[PompeyPaul]

Strange

Having four seats allows clubs to use the aircraft both as a trainer and also a tourer.

Strange given with 4 up in a P28-141 you can just about carry a thimbleful of fuel!

[DBisDogOne]

Agree with Julian Storey, either's a good solid training/GA aircraft, I've flown both (>120 hrs on PA28's) and there are advantages/disadvantages to both as well as personal likes/dislikes. Neither is fancy/sexy/clever nor tries to be which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest though, it doesn't really matter what you train in, your choice is going to be limited anyway, C150/152/172, PA28 (various types Cadet/Cherokee etc), Robin (various) or maybe a DA20 Diamond (poss. more expensive??).
It's a bit like being over-fussy about the make of small hatchback you learn to drive in. The only exception would be dependent on your height, if you're much over 5'10" a C150/152 will be a bit cramped legroom-wise, (I know, I trained in a C150 and am 6'1"!!) but the C172 is fine in that respect.

If I was doing it again, I'd try several different aircraft and choose the one I felt most comfortable with in conjuction with being happy with the school and instructors (& of course, price).

Whatever you choose, have fun and good luck.

[IFollowRailways]

Just to continue the myths............

very well maintained pair of Tomahawk MK2's (the mark of tomahawk that the tail didnt fall off when spinning in)

Quotes from the 162-page review of the Piper Tomahawk on behalf of the AOPA Air safety Foundation, which includes statistical safety data and 74 individual accident reports

The ASF report found no in-flight failures of the much-maligned Tomahawk empennage (tailplane)................. The “aggressive” spin reputation of the Piper PA-38 Tomahawk has more to do with pilots than the airplane...........

The report also revealed a distinct Tomahawk training advantage for career pilots. “Instructors interviewed told us that pilots who learn to fly in the Tomahawk have fewer problems transitioning to larger and higher performance single-engine airplanes" !!!!!

[DX Wombat]

One thing about the PA28 is that a lot of FTO's use them for the IMC, so if you're planning on progressing to the IMC it might be an idea to stay put on the PA28?

Why? I am doing my IMC in a perfectly adequately equipped C152. I also fly a DA40TDi which fully airways compliant.

so the PA28-161 isn't a good trainer because it does everything that Piper meant it to do to be a good trainer

It was designed as a tourer and migrated to the training area.
G-EMMA, I am appalled by your rudeness to people with FAR greater knowledge and experience of teaching people to fly in light aircraft. Does experience count for nothing or is only your opinion of any worth?

will teach you to be polite to aeroplanes and make up for learning in an easy aircraft.

If you leave it until AFTER you gain your licence then you have left it too late and could well end up in serious difficulties from which you may or may not be able to recover.

Hardly any of the PPL course is basic handling anyway, you will be glad of the stable platform when circuit bashing in blustery conditions and doing your first solo navs.

If that is really how you are being taught then I suggest you find yourself a good, reputable FTO which will teach you how to fly properly. I have a few hours in PA28s (including RG) and PA38s and found them heavy and far less responsive than the C152. That is NOT to say they are unsuitable for training, it is merely how I found them. It is intersting to note however that of those of us who converted to the DA40, it was those who flew the C152 who found it brilliant to fly, whilst those who flew the PA28 described it as "very twitchy". Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the C152 has to be flown, you can't just treat it like a motorised airborne pram?
It is interesting to note that a very well respected CPL (amongst other things) examiner once told me that he could always tell which of the CPL candidates he was examining had learned in a C152 because they were the ones who knew what to do with their feet - ie they knew how to use the rudder properly and were well coordinated.

Do you remember why it says here to learn not to inform F3G? You keep using the title ad nauseum as I knew you would. You have a very short memory.

The fact is there is very little difference in the qualities of the aircraft.
....................... Thankfully plenty of time for me to get lots of experience and remain just as emphatic as ever.

G-EMMA, I really hope you get the time to learn and obtain good experience, but with your apparent "Iam the only one who is right and I know it all" attitude, I fear that, in the words of a former FI who helped to teach me, "I forsee a starring rolefor X in an AAIB report."

If you get off your high horse and put your hyperbole to bed for a while,

I strongly recommend you take this advice to heart, listen and learn. I really do NOT want you, or anyone else to end up as an AAIB statistic.

[foxmoth]

Check that your aircraft has 2 wings

Personally I find nothing wrong with types that have 2 sets of wings (normally called Biplanes).

[Captain Smithy]

Come on folks, seriously, arguing about what aircraft is best... I thought we'd all be past that by now.

I agree with DBisDogOne - if you're learning then what does it matter? Do you miss what you haven't yet had? I speak as a mere student (on PA-38) myself, only a humble 25 hours.

P.S. Muchos bullshyte spouted about the Tomahawk as usual, nothing wrong with it, read the POH and fly with an instructor first as you would with any other aircraft and all is OK. And I have never heard of tails falling off... utter mince. Most people who smite the Tommy (e.g. on these sorts of threads on PPRuNE) have never even flown one. I wouldn't dare criticise any other type because I've only ever flown the Tommy (well, OK, I had a couple of goes in a G115E as an Air Cadet but that doesn't really count). Why can't we all just get on here?

[dan design]

Hi 231W - bet you're glad you asked!


Enjoy you're flying whatever aircraft you learn in.

[Insight]

LOL Look what you started 231W

[Piper.Classique]

best trainer?

well you could always learn in a cub.......