JAR IR in the US?

[g-mady]

Does anyone do this anymore?
I know Bristows FL dont and cant search the forum (too short words!)!

MADY

[Contacttower]

It can't be done. A JAR IR must be done in JAR land. Unfortunately.

[BillieBob]

Whilst you don't make it clear, your mention of the Bristow Academy suggests that you are looking for the JAA IR(H), in which case there are no training providers in the US that hold such approval. If, on the other hand, you really meant the IR(A), a cursory check of Standards Document 31 quickly reveals that there is only one training provider in the US approved by the UK to conduct such training - European Flight Training in Fort Pierce, FL. AFAIK, all other JAA states comply with Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055 and approve only integrated training to take place in non-JAA states, although this could have changed recently and you would have to check with the JAA or individual NAAs to be sure.

Contacttower is incorrect in his ill-informed assertion that IR training cannot take place outside the JAA. It is only the IR Skill Test and, common sense dictates, some acclimatisation flying that must be completed in a JAA member state.

[IO540]

It must be possible to do at least some JAA IR training in the USA, because some airlines have been doing it for years.

The other way to do this is to get the FAA IR and then follow the conversion route to JAA. In Switzerland you can convert with just the checkride. Plus the dreaded JAA IR ground school of course; no way to avoid that In the UK you can convert with 15hrs dual time, checkride and ground school. There is some outfit in Norway which offers some interesting options, too. This way, you end up with both FAA and JAA IRs (and hopefully with standalone PPLs/CPLs from both) and you can fly not only Euro-reg but also N-reg, fully IFR, worldwide. In this "paper collection game" you can never cover too many bases

[Contacttower]

Contacttower is incorrect in his ill-informed assertion that IR training cannot take place outside the JAA. It is only the IR Skill Test and, common sense dictates, some acclimatisation flying that must be completed in a JAA member state.

I didn't say you couldn't do IR training ouside of JAA, of course you can, but normally when someone wants to 'do' a rating or a school offers a rating they mean complete said rating. I am certainly not ill-informed, I did my IMC rating in the US and am planning to do the FAA IR in the summer. If it really was possible to do a JAR IR in the US then I'd be off in no time...

[Shunter]

So the question is... how do the CAA react if you take your FAA IR and your JAA IR exams (done at Gatwick) and just do the checkride in Swissland?

[IRISHPILOT]

Shunter, that'll depend on which CAA that is: if it is the Swiss one, no problems. And if it is any other one, that'll depend on local regulations like LASORS in the UK (though they are pretty close to JAR). Do they care if you come with the certificate of the flight test?

The renewal is and has been done for many years in the US, Canada, Brazil, Thailand... on FFS, the initial can be done outside JAR only in Croatia, as far as I know.

There is no need whatsoever to an ME IR flight test in the UK (which is one of the most expensive places to do it), though some people choose to do it for sentimental reasons. Switzerland offers a cheap alternative (though a couple of familiarization flights are advisable), as well as the new EU countries.

There was a loophole for doing it in the US till not long ago, but that is gone now...

good luck! IP

[BillieBob]

I didn't say you couldn't do IR training ouside of JAA

No, of course you didn't!

It can't be done. A JAR IR must be done in JAR land

If you now want to split hairs to save to spare your blushes, feel free - it's hardly important.

The important thing is that the training for a JAA IR(A) must be completed in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 or any member state has the right to refuse to recognise the rating, and some have. If you have an FAA IR(A), you must complete approved flight training and pass the IR Skill Test in order to comply with JAR-FCL 1. There may well be JAA member states that will issue an IR(A) without the required compliant training but it's a dangerous route to follow.

[IO540]

The usual scare stories from BB, without references as usual.

how do the CAA react if you take your FAA IR and your JAA IR exams (done at Gatwick) and just do the checkride in Swissland?

The CAA have no say in the matter; a JAA IR is a JAA IR.

The CAA are not delighted about so many ATPL candidates doing their initial colour vision test in Hungary, but they cannot do anything about it.

However the 15hrs is a bit moot because some local flying will be required anyway, just to get pointers on what the JAA IR examiner (whose habits will normally be known locally) will expect.

[Contacttower]

....

If you now want to split hairs to save to spare your blushes, feel free - it's hardly important.

I don't really see it as a question of splitting hairs...by any reasonable definition of 'doing' a rating (as I assume the original poster was asking) as far as I know you can't do a JAA IR in the US.

It's not a question of saving blushes either - I'd be delighted if you could tell me that you can do a JAR IR in the US (and I am welcomed to be proved incorrect)...it's just that I've thought the same question in the past, researched the possibilities and concluded that it can't be done...but please do correct me if I'm wrong...

[S-Works]

You can't do a JAA IR in the USA. You may be able to do training towards it with a JAA approved FTO but you will need to do the test with a JAA examiner. Flight with an FAA Instructor does not count unless you do the whole ICAO IR and then convert it later.

If you are returning to the UK for the test it will have to be with a UK CAA examiner. It is possible to do the flight test in another JAA country and have the paperwork processed by the UK CAA. They don't like it but they do it.

There is also a quirk around where you do the theory element in relation to the flight training, but I am at work and don't have the reference handy.

[IO540]

It is possible to do the flight test in another JAA country and have the paperwork processed by the UK CAA. They don't like it but they do it.

Why would anybody want to do that? Any JAA IR is as good as any other.

There is IIRC a problem with doing the theory in one country and the flying in another. I wonder why this is.

[S-Works]

I am not totally clear on the reasons but in Spain for example the JAA IR Initital flight test can be done by any examiner and in the UK only by a CAA examiner. I understand there are issues around the standards of the initial tests in certain countries that our CAA do not like. You have to submit the test paperwork to the CAA that issued your licence for issue.

I will find chapter and verse on the theory element but there is something about the theory that causes a snag.

[IO540]

OK, you appear to be referring to a situation where the pilot has say a UK issued JAA PPL but did a Spanish JAA IR.

The CAA may refuse to allow that IR to be added onto "their" PPL. A bizzare "join JAA and then stick a middle finger up it" restrictive practice worthy of the French, but I can see this being possible because the CAA "owns" "their" PPLs.

It would seem easier to get a Spanish PPL, while one is out there flying in the sunshine. Then the CAA is out of the picture completely. IIRC one cannot hold two different JAA PPLs but the Spanish one should be good for flying any EU-reg plane.

Another approach, with an N-reg, is an FAA PPL and any JAA IR. This should work for all IFR, worldwide. I don't believe one needs an FAA IR to fly an N-reg IFR.

[S-Works]

I do believe there is a domicile rule about having to have a JAA PPL issued by your home state..... There are rules on duration that govern domicile.

[IO540]

So, there is a domicile/residence rule on a JAA PPL but not on a JAA IR?

I would find it suprising anyway because it would mean that somebody who went to live in say Spain could not commence PPL training for quite a while.

It should be possible to turn up in Spain and upon supplying a Spanish address (that of a mate for example) get a Spanish JAA PPL.

[BackPacker]

OK, you appear to be referring to a situation where the pilot has say a UK issued JAA PPL but did a Spanish JAA IR.

The CAA may refuse to allow that IR to be added onto "their" PPL. A bizzare "join JAA and then stick a middle finger up it" restrictive practice worthy of the French, but I can see this being possible because the CAA "owns" "their" PPLs.

I have a UK-issued JAA PPL but I fly in the Netherlands and thus have to have recurrent training, exams etc. by Dutch-issued JAA instructors/examiners. The way I have always solved this so far is by letting the JAA instructor/examiner fill in the UK CAA forms (instead of the Dutch ones) and add a copy of his/her license to the paperwork, then send the lot to Gatwick. I would assume you would be able to do the same thing for that Spanish IR.

I do believe there is a domicile rule about having to have a JAA PPL issued by your home state..... There are rules on duration that govern domicile.

The only rule that I am aware of is that you can (but do not have to) transfer a JAA license to another JAA state if you live in that state for more than 180 days per year. For me that means that I'm quite happy to fly around on a UK-issued JAA PPL, but I can transfer it to the Dutch authorities if I choose, but not to e.g. the German authorities. However, once transferred to the Dutch, I cannot transfer it back to the UK CAA, unless I physically relocate to the UK.

[S-Works]

There is no such thing as a Spanish IR. The IR is a rating that goes onto your licence. If you sit the IR in Spain you send the paperwork to the state that issues your licence for inclusion on your licence.

It is this that I understand our CAA are a little sniffy about.

I was under the impression that if you made a permanent move you were supposed to move your state of issue, but I could be wrong.

[BillieBob]

Shunter's question related specifically to a situation where the holder of an FAA IR passed the JAA IR exams and just completed the checkride in Switzerland (i.e. did not complete any JAA approved flight training). This is not compliant with JAR-FCL 1.205(a), which states "An applicant for an IR(A) shall have participated in a course of integrated flying training which includes training for the IR(A) (see JAR–FCL 1.165) or shall have completed an approved modular flying training course."

In the case of the holder of an IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 (e.g. an FAA IR), JAR-FCL 1.016(a) states that he "shall meet all the requirements of JAR–FCL, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specific training hours may be reduced." i.e approved training is still required but the duration may be reduced.

The scenario that Shunter presented is, therefore, clearly not compliant with JAR-FCL and JAR-FCL 1.015(a)(1) requires mutual recognition only where ratings have been issued "in accordance with the requirements of JAR–FCL and associated procedures".

Now, what part of my response to Shunter's question is factually incorrect or not supported by JAR-FCL 1?

[englishal]

Anyway....the way the likes of the JAA-IR-in-the-us bunch used to work is to do all but 15 hours training in Florida, then send the candidate to Bournemouth or somewhere to do the remaining 15 hrs and flight test.

Bit of a con if you ask me, paying almost JAA prices for using US aeroplanes, US avionics, US prices and probably more than likely FAA CFII's who get $30 per hour. It'd have to be FAA CFIIs doing the training as JAR FIs don't have any authority over there. In the *old* days, all an FAA instructor had to do to be "approved" to teach JAA stuff at a JAA school was to have "knowledge of JAR" - in otherwords passed an airlaw exam or hold a JAA PPL. Not sure what the deal is now.

You can do the JAA renewal in the USA though with a UK examiner...