PPL in an unusual way... possibly!?
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PPL in an unusual way... possibly!?
Hello everyone, I've recently joined PPRuNe as I found myself doing something rather unusual last Christmas.
I'm married to a Brazilian and consequently I spend Christmas occasionally in Brazil. Several friends of my wife are pilots and either participate in running or are members of a Air Club. They kept suggesting that I should give it a go. Anyway last Christmas I did, and enjoyed the first couple hours so much, I ended up spending almost 13 hours flying.
It would silly to make the best of those hours, and so I would like to start by at least getting a PPL. Brazil is a bit unusual from what I can work out in that they are not fully signed up to either JAA or FAA, although it has been suggested that they are close to signing up to the JAA.
They seem happy that I get a UK CAA issued Class II medical, which I have done, phew!
What I would like to work out now, is what to do about ground exams. Should I aim to do them here in the UK?
I also have a set of Air Pilot's Manuals, published by Pooleys, should these be sufficient? Is there any further reading material that people consider a must? And what about example exam papers, are they accessible?
I'm sure I shall be coming here with more questions, but that'll do for now, and thanks in advance for any advice.
I'm married to a Brazilian and consequently I spend Christmas occasionally in Brazil. Several friends of my wife are pilots and either participate in running or are members of a Air Club. They kept suggesting that I should give it a go. Anyway last Christmas I did, and enjoyed the first couple hours so much, I ended up spending almost 13 hours flying.
It would silly to make the best of those hours, and so I would like to start by at least getting a PPL. Brazil is a bit unusual from what I can work out in that they are not fully signed up to either JAA or FAA, although it has been suggested that they are close to signing up to the JAA.
They seem happy that I get a UK CAA issued Class II medical, which I have done, phew!
What I would like to work out now, is what to do about ground exams. Should I aim to do them here in the UK?
I also have a set of Air Pilot's Manuals, published by Pooleys, should these be sufficient? Is there any further reading material that people consider a must? And what about example exam papers, are they accessible?
I'm sure I shall be coming here with more questions, but that'll do for now, and thanks in advance for any advice.
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Well, I don't think Brazil would be able to "sign up" to either JAA or FAA, unless they make themselves a state of either the European Union, or the United States of America.
Arguably they could use the guidelines of JAR-FCL, enact them into local law and be considered the equivalent of a JAA country/registration/license. However, when EASA takes over flight crew licensing from JAA, they've got to become member of the European Union before they can adopt the same rules.
So I guess you either have to train in Brazil, do the Brazilian exams, get a Brazilian PPL and then try to convince the CAA to render it valid to fly a G-reg, or something like that, or do it the other way 'round. That is, if you want to be able to fly planes both in Brazil and the UK.
Unless, of course, you manage to find a Brazil-registered plane in the UK, or the other way around. That way you can fly in both places on just one PPL.
Arguably they could use the guidelines of JAR-FCL, enact them into local law and be considered the equivalent of a JAA country/registration/license. However, when EASA takes over flight crew licensing from JAA, they've got to become member of the European Union before they can adopt the same rules.
So I guess you either have to train in Brazil, do the Brazilian exams, get a Brazilian PPL and then try to convince the CAA to render it valid to fly a G-reg, or something like that, or do it the other way 'round. That is, if you want to be able to fly planes both in Brazil and the UK.
Unless, of course, you manage to find a Brazil-registered plane in the UK, or the other way around. That way you can fly in both places on just one PPL.
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That all sounds rather complicated. I wonder if I'm wasting my time? I don't regret the time I spent flying in Brazil, but it would be nice to think the hours would count towards something, either here or there.
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The UK CAA might be quite happy to accept your hours. Brazil is an ICAO member state, so providing the hours were flown with a suitably qualified Brazilian instructor and are verifiable I can't see why they wouldn't be accepted towards the issue of a JAA PPL in the UK.
My first flying hours were also on the other side of the world, and the CAA were perfectly happy to count them towards my 45.
My first flying hours were also on the other side of the world, and the CAA were perfectly happy to count them towards my 45.
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That is comforting. In what way would the CAA expect to be able to confirm the hours? I have a Pilot's Logbook in Brazil. The instructor was indeed qualified, actually both of them were.
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I have no idea whether they actually verified my hours with the school or not, but I simply noted the contact details in the comments column of my logbook, and attached a note when I sent off my PPL application. If you were to get the school to stamp your logbook and note the FI's license number that makes it even easier should the CAA choose to verify the hours.
If you want it in black and white, give flight crew licensing a bell at Gatwick. They're usually quite helpful.
If you want it in black and white, give flight crew licensing a bell at Gatwick. They're usually quite helpful.
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I see no reason why one could not do a standalone FAA PPL (or CPL or IR etc) in Brazil.
FAA training is done all over the world, and the majority of the known universe flies on FAA licenses, FAA certification, or both.
I would be most suprised if one could do a JAA PPL in Brazil. As far as I know, the only JAA member state which has ever approved JAA schools outside JAA-land is the UK CAA which has approved about half a dozen schools in the USA.
However, the UK has a process for converting any ICAO (FAA, Brazilian, Mongolian, whatever) PPL into a JAA PPL. You sit something like 3 of the 7 exams, do a little bit of flying, pass the checkride, and you need the CAA Class 2 medical of course. If I was training in Brazil for some reason anyway this is the route I would take, starting with either an FAA PPL or a Brazilian PPL and then generating a UK/JAA PPL using that.
Obviously having an FAA and a JAA PPL is the best of all worlds. The FAA PPL is the most universally recognised one in the world by far.
Unless you actually want to fly in Brazil (renting planes from flying clubs) in the longer term in which case a Brazilian PPL might be preferable over an FAA one - I don't know anything about Brazil.
FAA training is done all over the world, and the majority of the known universe flies on FAA licenses, FAA certification, or both.
I would be most suprised if one could do a JAA PPL in Brazil. As far as I know, the only JAA member state which has ever approved JAA schools outside JAA-land is the UK CAA which has approved about half a dozen schools in the USA.
However, the UK has a process for converting any ICAO (FAA, Brazilian, Mongolian, whatever) PPL into a JAA PPL. You sit something like 3 of the 7 exams, do a little bit of flying, pass the checkride, and you need the CAA Class 2 medical of course. If I was training in Brazil for some reason anyway this is the route I would take, starting with either an FAA PPL or a Brazilian PPL and then generating a UK/JAA PPL using that.
Obviously having an FAA and a JAA PPL is the best of all worlds. The FAA PPL is the most universally recognised one in the world by far.
Unless you actually want to fly in Brazil (renting planes from flying clubs) in the longer term in which case a Brazilian PPL might be preferable over an FAA one - I don't know anything about Brazil.
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IO540 I recently asked my clubs CFI on the proceedure for converting FAA to CAA, he advised me that you would have to sit all 7 ground exams and do a few more hours with an instructor ending in a skills test. The reason given was that the JAR-FCL requires more in terms of skills learnt and quality of how well you know said skills.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
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I've got Rio CEU, Saquerema, Marica, Angra dos Reis, Parati in my logbook.
Flying in Brasil was astoundingly good..the natives were so friendly. I particularly liked the atmosphere at Ceu (near Barra) ..they couldn't have made me more welcome.
Flying in Brasil was astoundingly good..the natives were so friendly. I particularly liked the atmosphere at Ceu (near Barra) ..they couldn't have made me more welcome.
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Thank you pboyall - I forgot to mention the 100hrs bit!! So, only two ground exams to pass then.
That is b0110cks 
But a lot of people in the UK believe it.
The reason given was that the JAR-FCL requires more in terms of skills learnt and quality of how well you know said skills.
But a lot of people in the UK believe it.
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The reason given was that the JAR-FCL requires more in terms of skills learnt and quality of how well you know said skills.
The skill sets may be slightly different, but the level of skill for both FAA and JAA are high. FAA for instance includes night flying, figure 8, and flight around a spot which JAR doesn't. JAR (I've been told) places more emphasis on PFLs.
But both require you to demonstrate those skills to a high standard (at least to prove to the examiner you're not about to kill either yourself or anyone else).
Check LASORS for the skills and exam requirements. Lasors 2007 gives 3 scenarios:
- current issued ICAO licence with more than 100 hours (Air Law and Human Performance and limitations theory exans and flight test only needed. If you want the FRTOL aswell then also need the communications theory and practical)
- current issued ICAO licence less than 100 hours (full credit given as long as JAR-FCL flying experience criteria have been met, otherwise training as necessary. All theory exams and Flight test needed)
- lapsed issued ICAO licence (training as necessary, skills test and all theory exams)
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admitably i havent read this whole thread, but all i can recommend is that you learn in the UK or USA if you want a "portable" licence so to speak licence.
aka one you can use in lots of different countrys airspace with the least amount of retraining and exams possible.... if you know what i mean...,
but the JAA and FAA ones are certainly useable in Brazil iv got a pal thats got the T-shirt.
aka one you can use in lots of different countrys airspace with the least amount of retraining and exams possible.... if you know what i mean...,
but the JAA and FAA ones are certainly useable in Brazil iv got a pal thats got the T-shirt.
Last edited by 17thhour; 26th Jan 2008 at 20:52. Reason: wanted to...
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Oh, please excuse and forgive my lack of knowledge and desire to help, I did not realise that I would be laughed at for relaying what I was told, even if it was completely different to the actual answer. Thank you EvilKitty. Clearly there are many friendly people about that understand that a student PPL may be misinformed due to shortness of time in the aviation world and limited aviation contacts - we are just learning. It's good to know that us students can try and pitch in where needed if we feel we might know an answer. I have been shown the light. 
Perhaps my flight school need an updated Lasors Quite possibly he also said about the 100 hours bit but that wasn't relevant in what I required from him. It might also be an idea to not begin a reply in such an unnecessary way so as to put one down.
Thanks Pboyall and IO540, i'll tell the guy that I enquired for about the FAA - JAA conversion what you have told me.
Perhaps my flight school need an updated Lasors
Quite possibly he also said about the 100 hours bit but that wasn't relevant in what I required from him. It might also be an idea to not begin a reply in such an unnecessary way so as to put one down. Thanks Pboyall and IO540, i'll tell the guy that I enquired for about the FAA - JAA conversion what you have told me.
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Poss
I dont think anybody was laughing at you. More a matter of ridiculing the poor and potentially expensive advice you seem to have been given.
Maybe it's worth asking the same question at a different school now that you have a better idea of what the right answer might sound like.
Hope it turns out well for you.
I dont think anybody was laughing at you. More a matter of ridiculing the poor and potentially expensive advice you seem to have been given.
Maybe it's worth asking the same question at a different school now that you have a better idea of what the right answer might sound like.
Hope it turns out well for you.
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Poss,
I wasn't laughing at you! I'm just amazed that we keep hearing the same bad information being spouted by people who really should know better.
One of the best places to start as a student is with LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591). You can download it for free from the CAA (I think you can also pay about £15 for a printed copy from most aviation stores).
It contains all the information you need right from the horses mouth so to speak (unless you want to get really serious and read the ANO - although that is also worth doing). If anyone says anything contrary to whats in here then it should set alarm bells rining and you need to ask questions.
I wasn't laughing at you! I'm just amazed that we keep hearing the same bad information being spouted by people who really should know better.
One of the best places to start as a student is with LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591). You can download it for free from the CAA (I think you can also pay about £15 for a printed copy from most aviation stores).
It contains all the information you need right from the horses mouth so to speak (unless you want to get really serious and read the ANO - although that is also worth doing). If anyone says anything contrary to whats in here then it should set alarm bells rining and you need to ask questions.
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My apologies Evilkitty, it is hard to interperate meanings of what people write. Especially if your new to the world that is aviation and are quite apprehensive about typing in fear of being mocked.
Thanks for the link, I will have a good look at it whilst I'm at work tomorrow :-)
Thanks for the link, I will have a good look at it whilst I'm at work tomorrow :-)
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Nobody was laughing at you, poss. The smiley is used to make it clear (often it isn't in written communications) that the writer is being ironic.
There is a great deal of elitism in aviation. A UK instructor will probably think the UK/JAA PPL (and CPL and ATPL) are superior to the U.S. ones. This is merely the tip of the iceberg of prejudices; others are that N-reg aeroplanes are poorly maintained, that people go on N-reg to save money, etc etc. That's before you go higher up and ask people in the training establishment about FAA v. JAA instrument ratings; there are some massive emotional attachments there
I've done both the FAA PPL and the JAA PPL, both standalone, and I reckon the FAA one was harder on actual flying skills. The FAA one also has an oral exam which you won't pass unless you actually know the stuff - the FAA one was about 1hr while the CPL one was half a day. The single FAA PPL written exam somehow manages to contain a similar scope of stuff (in terms of revision) to the seven JAA exams; I found the latter a piece of cake. My experience of U.S. training (I did only the IR there) is that it is rigorous and is not a holiday.
is used to make it clear (often it isn't in written communications) that the writer is being ironic.There is a great deal of elitism in aviation. A UK instructor will probably think the UK/JAA PPL (and CPL and ATPL) are superior to the U.S. ones. This is merely the tip of the iceberg of prejudices; others are that N-reg aeroplanes are poorly maintained, that people go on N-reg to save money, etc etc. That's before you go higher up and ask people in the training establishment about FAA v. JAA instrument ratings; there are some massive emotional attachments there
I've done both the FAA PPL and the JAA PPL, both standalone, and I reckon the FAA one was harder on actual flying skills. The FAA one also has an oral exam which you won't pass unless you actually know the stuff - the FAA one was about 1hr while the CPL one was half a day. The single FAA PPL written exam somehow manages to contain a similar scope of stuff (in terms of revision) to the seven JAA exams; I found the latter a piece of cake. My experience of U.S. training (I did only the IR there) is that it is rigorous and is not a holiday.
