Training at Netherthorpe
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Training at Netherthorpe
I am thinking of taking flying lessons at Netherthorpe but, after reading through the forums, I have a few general and specific questions that I would appreciate some guidance on.
1) Mention is made that some instructors are just trying to make up hours and are not really all that interested in the student. How can I tell this (not having anything to compare with) and does anyone have experience of either Phoenix or Sheffield Aero Club at Netherthorpe.
2) Mention is made that the weather cancels quite a few flights. How bad do the weather conditions need to be before cancellations especially as Netherthorpe has grass landing.
3) One club uses Cessna Aerobat and Beagle Pup whereas the other uses Cessna 150/152 & 172. What are the main differences that I would notice, are they similar to fly, is it just an age issue?
4) One club charges £110 (plus a membership fee) whereas the other charges £94 (no membership fee). Over 45+ hours this is a sizeable difference. Does anyone have experience of Netherthorpe and know what "extra" you get for the extra money?
5) I would prefer to learn with the club that has the best teachers who are enthusiastic, does anyone have any experience of the two Netherthorpe clubs that they can pass on.
Sorry for the ramble but I would like to get it right at the start!
1) Mention is made that some instructors are just trying to make up hours and are not really all that interested in the student. How can I tell this (not having anything to compare with) and does anyone have experience of either Phoenix or Sheffield Aero Club at Netherthorpe.
2) Mention is made that the weather cancels quite a few flights. How bad do the weather conditions need to be before cancellations especially as Netherthorpe has grass landing.
3) One club uses Cessna Aerobat and Beagle Pup whereas the other uses Cessna 150/152 & 172. What are the main differences that I would notice, are they similar to fly, is it just an age issue?
4) One club charges £110 (plus a membership fee) whereas the other charges £94 (no membership fee). Over 45+ hours this is a sizeable difference. Does anyone have experience of Netherthorpe and know what "extra" you get for the extra money?
5) I would prefer to learn with the club that has the best teachers who are enthusiastic, does anyone have any experience of the two Netherthorpe clubs that they can pass on.
Sorry for the ramble but I would like to get it right at the start!
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Sheffield Aero Club worked for me.
Netherthorpe is a well liked and friendly airfield and its well known 'tolerances' force you into being accurate and on the ball. Taking off massively overloaded or floating down the runway for a couple of hundred meters are not allowed, as testified by the assorted PA28 shaped holes in the hedges.
Hour builders: No hour builders at SAC, just professional instructors with a tens of thousands of hours. I can't speak for Phoenix but I'm sure that you can ask. There is a general shortage of instructors nationally so situations change.
Weather: It's the weather in the air that usually stops you flying. The grass runways at EGNF are in excellent condition, generally reinforced where it gets muddy and rarely closed in my experienced. There are four of them so if it's flyable you should be flying. Obviously winter can have an effect but I learned over the winter / spring and there was some fabulous flying with fabulous vis, and quite a few challenging days when I was glad to have an instructor showing me how to cope!
Aircraft choice. You'll be training in a two seater so it's either 152's at SAC or 150 aerobats with Phoenix. There's nothing in it for PPL training. Both seem to keep their aircraft flying rather than tech. You won't be worrying about four seats for a while.
Costs: You pays your money and makes your choice. Both will teach you to fly but this is where it starts to get more complicated. Phoenix flyers are simply not allowed in the (very very good) SAC clubhouse or outdoor viewing area at all unless they join SAC. I had an awesome £4.95 Sunday lunch at the weekend, and sat chatting aeroplanes in the lovely warm clubhouse. Phoenix, take sandwiches.
The difference in costs is basically down to the fact that SAC own and operate the airfield, and Phoenix have no facilities to speak of, and they do their own maintenance. Both are cheaper than most places. If you're worried about the small difference in costs do not get a Transair / AFE / FlightStore pilots supplies catalogue.
Instructors: I find the SAC instructors and staff to be very nice people who are good pilots and instructors. I've no experience of the Phoenix mob but I'm sure that they are perfectly normal single headed people too.
SAC is a club, Phoenix is a school. The differences will become apparent over time. If you want a cheap licence on the way to an airline job then any old PPL will do, but if you want to stay on airfield afterwards I'd get into a club. SAC has various groups that are active in aerobatics and air racing There's also more scope for getting into a group for touring if that's your thing.
It all depends on what you want out of it! I chose the Club and of course I'll stand up for that decision, but that's not to denigrate the School in any way.
If you want to know more or drop in for a chat when I'm there feel free to drop me a PM.
Netherthorpe is a well liked and friendly airfield and its well known 'tolerances' force you into being accurate and on the ball. Taking off massively overloaded or floating down the runway for a couple of hundred meters are not allowed, as testified by the assorted PA28 shaped holes in the hedges.
Hour builders: No hour builders at SAC, just professional instructors with a tens of thousands of hours. I can't speak for Phoenix but I'm sure that you can ask. There is a general shortage of instructors nationally so situations change.
Weather: It's the weather in the air that usually stops you flying. The grass runways at EGNF are in excellent condition, generally reinforced where it gets muddy and rarely closed in my experienced. There are four of them so if it's flyable you should be flying. Obviously winter can have an effect but I learned over the winter / spring and there was some fabulous flying with fabulous vis, and quite a few challenging days when I was glad to have an instructor showing me how to cope!
Aircraft choice. You'll be training in a two seater so it's either 152's at SAC or 150 aerobats with Phoenix. There's nothing in it for PPL training. Both seem to keep their aircraft flying rather than tech. You won't be worrying about four seats for a while.
Costs: You pays your money and makes your choice. Both will teach you to fly but this is where it starts to get more complicated. Phoenix flyers are simply not allowed in the (very very good) SAC clubhouse or outdoor viewing area at all unless they join SAC. I had an awesome £4.95 Sunday lunch at the weekend, and sat chatting aeroplanes in the lovely warm clubhouse. Phoenix, take sandwiches.
The difference in costs is basically down to the fact that SAC own and operate the airfield, and Phoenix have no facilities to speak of, and they do their own maintenance. Both are cheaper than most places. If you're worried about the small difference in costs do not get a Transair / AFE / FlightStore pilots supplies catalogue.
Instructors: I find the SAC instructors and staff to be very nice people who are good pilots and instructors. I've no experience of the Phoenix mob but I'm sure that they are perfectly normal single headed people too.
SAC is a club, Phoenix is a school. The differences will become apparent over time. If you want a cheap licence on the way to an airline job then any old PPL will do, but if you want to stay on airfield afterwards I'd get into a club. SAC has various groups that are active in aerobatics and air racing There's also more scope for getting into a group for touring if that's your thing.
It all depends on what you want out of it! I chose the Club and of course I'll stand up for that decision, but that's not to denigrate the School in any way.
If you want to know more or drop in for a chat when I'm there feel free to drop me a PM.
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I don't fly from Netherthorpe, but have been familiar with it over quite a long time.
All the above appears to be sound advice.
Their have been "differences" between the two clubs, mostly resolved now, but I believe some issues still remain about Phoenix members using the SAC bar/cafe. Visitors are quite welcome at the bar.
For practical training purposes, the C152 and the aerobat are pretty similar, the Pup has nicer sporty handling, but is more expensive to maintain, and the C172 would only usually be used for training if you were too big for a C150/152.
Whichever you choose, learning at Netherthorpe will instill a discipline for accurate approaches and speed control that will serve you well elsewhere.
It may have short runways, but accidents are mostly resulting from visiting aircraft rather than the locals, hence the very strict PPR requirements.
All the above appears to be sound advice.
Their have been "differences" between the two clubs, mostly resolved now, but I believe some issues still remain about Phoenix members using the SAC bar/cafe. Visitors are quite welcome at the bar.
For practical training purposes, the C152 and the aerobat are pretty similar, the Pup has nicer sporty handling, but is more expensive to maintain, and the C172 would only usually be used for training if you were too big for a C150/152.
Whichever you choose, learning at Netherthorpe will instill a discipline for accurate approaches and speed control that will serve you well elsewhere.
It may have short runways, but accidents are mostly resulting from visiting aircraft rather than the locals, hence the very strict PPR requirements.
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I am currently training with Sheffield Aero Club and think it unlikely the statement "just trying to make up hours and are not really all that interested in the student" applies to them. I cannot comment on Phoenix.
As far as weather is concerned, I wouldn't worry too much. As eltonioni says, there are four runways to choose from and they're very well kept. The likelihood of cancellation is probably no greater than any of the other airfields in the region - grass or concrete.
As for the difference between the two clubs , you might be better dropping by for a quick natter. I find the SAC has a strong social element over and above the basic training. With that and the regular ground school sessions, I would happily make the same decision again.
As far as weather is concerned, I wouldn't worry too much. As eltonioni says, there are four runways to choose from and they're very well kept. The likelihood of cancellation is probably no greater than any of the other airfields in the region - grass or concrete.
As for the difference between the two clubs , you might be better dropping by for a quick natter. I find the SAC has a strong social element over and above the basic training. With that and the regular ground school sessions, I would happily make the same decision again.
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I seem to remember (20 years ago) applying the CAA recomended 1.33 and 1.43 to the take off and landing distances (C152) produced some interesting figures at this airfiield--be interested to know exactly what the figures are these days!
Looks like a great place!
Looks like a great place!
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Take off on 24 which is also 1.6 deg uphill (on that rather high looking approach ) the basic rule with a C152 is 40 kts by the intersection. If you don't see that you chuck it away there and then. It's quite normal to be off the ground not far after the intersection and to be vacating in the same place. It's worth knowing that the grass gets cut on Thursday.
Rolling starts are the norm and as I'm not a lightweight I've always firewalled the throttle even before being fully lined up, and despite what the POH says, it's 10 degrees flap and weight off the nosewheel. Short-field, soft-field... don't stop, get in the air, nose down, and get the speed up before climbing proper, avoiding the hedges and roads right at the end of 24, 06 and 18... 36 has a public footpath, a ditch, telegraph wires and a wood to help you concentrate on flying before you run out of the <400m of grass. Great fun and what a great place to learn to fly.
It's more impressive to see the Vans hold at the hedge, stand on the brakes, firewall, lift the tail and be off by the 24 numbers.
) the basic rule with a C152 is 40 kts by the intersection. If you don't see that you chuck it away there and then. It's quite normal to be off the ground not far after the intersection and to be vacating in the same place. It's worth knowing that the grass gets cut on Thursday. Rolling starts are the norm and as I'm not a lightweight I've always firewalled the throttle even before being fully lined up, and despite what the POH says, it's 10 degrees flap and weight off the nosewheel. Short-field, soft-field... don't stop, get in the air, nose down, and get the speed up before climbing proper, avoiding the hedges and roads right at the end of 24, 06 and 18... 36 has a public footpath, a ditch, telegraph wires and a wood to help you concentrate on flying before you run out of the <400m of grass. Great fun and what a great place to learn to fly.
It's more impressive to see the Vans hold at the hedge, stand on the brakes, firewall, lift the tail and be off by the 24 numbers.
Last edited by eltonioni; 9th Jan 2008 at 16:05.
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The way everyone talks you get the impression Netherthorpe is really short, so I just looked it up in Pooleys and it lists 24 as 490m TORA! Short my arse
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Says the man with Leeds / Bradford as his location Will 18/36 do you?
To be fair there are loads of strips that are short but you can't learn to fly on them and not that many have a hedge and a road at each end.
Shunter... get a pprune fly-in organised!
Will 18/36 do you?To be fair there are loads of strips that are short but you can't learn to fly on them and not that many have a hedge and a road at each end.
Shunter... get a pprune fly-in organised!
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it is
LLanfairpg ...........you seem to have an opinion on everything?
Netherthorpe is an GREAT place and the CAA figures
are as you say ... interesting but they are just ,,,,,,,,, recommened !
And on a daily basis aircraft fly in & out safely
Regards
Netherthorpe is an GREAT place and the CAA figures
are as you say ... interesting but they are just ,,,,,,,,, recommened !
And on a daily basis aircraft fly in & out safely
Regards
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The way everyone talks you get the impression Netherthorpe is really short, so I just looked it up in Pooleys and it lists 24 as 490m TORA! Short my arse
interesting but they are just ,,,,,,,,, recommened !
Last edited by llanfairpg; 9th Jan 2008 at 20:40.
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Phoenix.
Learning to fly at Phoenix at the moment. Done most of my flying with the CFI who is excellent. Believe he used to fly king airs (don't quote me). The reason they are cheaper, in fact one of the cheapest clubs in the country, is that originally the company was purely a/c maintenance and engineering (they get a lot of a/c from other airfields flown in for maint) of course this keeps their own a/c costs low.
Only difference with the 150 Aerobat that Phoenix use is the more powerful 130hp engine with a slightly higher useful load (extra power can be handy on the short runways) and the 150 has 4 stages of flap whereas the 152 only has 3, not a major difference but the extra flap is useful when landing on 18/36.
The 150's at Phoenix are all well maintaned and equipped for IMC flying most with GPS and all have been recently resprayed/refurbed.
With regards the club's instructors, as far as I can see Phoenix's instructors all appear to be career instructors and are very friendly and professional. There are regular away days and events organised by the club which are very well subscribed to, so the argument that Phoenix is not really a club is quite misguided.
At the moment a new hangar is being built which will have a couple of small classrooms.
Sorry I can't comment on SAC because i've had no experience with them. In my opinon the only real difference between the two clubs is cost. The best thing to do is visit both. To be honest, if I wanted to sit eating i'd go to a pub, If i'm going to an airfield its for one reason only.....To fly!
Nadders
Only difference with the 150 Aerobat that Phoenix use is the more powerful 130hp engine with a slightly higher useful load (extra power can be handy on the short runways) and the 150 has 4 stages of flap whereas the 152 only has 3, not a major difference but the extra flap is useful when landing on 18/36.
The 150's at Phoenix are all well maintaned and equipped for IMC flying most with GPS and all have been recently resprayed/refurbed.
With regards the club's instructors, as far as I can see Phoenix's instructors all appear to be career instructors and are very friendly and professional. There are regular away days and events organised by the club which are very well subscribed to, so the argument that Phoenix is not really a club is quite misguided.
At the moment a new hangar is being built which will have a couple of small classrooms.
Sorry I can't comment on SAC because i've had no experience with them. In my opinon the only real difference between the two clubs is cost. The best thing to do is visit both. To be honest, if I wanted to sit eating i'd go to a pub, If i'm going to an airfield its for one reason only.....To fly!
Nadders
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Elton, you ought to call down to Derby sometime. It's licensed, plus it has the benefit of trees, powerlines and a river
It of course completely depends on what you're flying and how sensibly you approach the subject of loading. I'm fortunate to fly a 210bhp Cardinal, so it would easily haul 3 blokes and full fuel in/out of Netherthorpe. If it was just me on board I'd happily take the short one.
Not working tomorrow, so might trundle on down for a brew if the weather's decent.
It of course completely depends on what you're flying and how sensibly you approach the subject of loading. I'm fortunate to fly a 210bhp Cardinal, so it would easily haul 3 blokes and full fuel in/out of Netherthorpe. If it was just me on board I'd happily take the short one.
Not working tomorrow, so might trundle on down for a brew if the weather's decent.
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I've planned to go to Derby a few times but for one reason and another it's not happened. I'm supposed to be off down to Netherthorpe now to get in a few practice NDB approaches at Doncaster but looking at the 212/57 that's coming up at 3000' I don't think it will be happening if I want to get back anytime today
You'd be most welcome down there and it would be nice to get a look at a Cardinal... if only this chuffin wind would settle down!
You'd be most welcome down there and it would be nice to get a look at a Cardinal... if only this chuffin wind would settle down!
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I've had experience of both operations at Nethersludge having flown there on and off for almost 10 years.
To answer your questions:-
The airfield is well drained and is flyable for most of the year but occasionally suffers waterlogging and/or subsequent damage after prolonged periods of rain in winter with occasional closure or reduced operations (no landings/touch & go's during circuits).
Wind directions and local features occasionally stop flying at Netherthorpe when other airfields continue to fly.
The Aerobats that Phoenix use have a little more grunt than other 150/152's and so have better take off performance - useful out of Netherthorpe.
They are also well maintained and equipped.
For your 'membership' of SAC you get a good clubhouse, if this is something that you feel a need for it'll cost you extra.
There are no membership charges at Phoenix but the tea is free and there's always someone to talk to.
Both operations have employed 'hour builders' instructors on occasions - they've always been professional.
I have more experience of Phoenix's instructors and cannot recommend them highly enough - very professional, very experienced and always willing to help.
I have very limited experience of SAC instructors, I know one or two and they too would be recommended.
For my money - Phoenix - and they organise fly out days in the summer where students are welcome.
I never regretted doing my PPL & IMC at Phoenix and my night qual. with a Phoenix instructor.
BTW - As far as I know, SAC don't own the airfield they lease it and are the operator.
And there's been a few Cessna shaped holes in the hedges!
7700
To answer your questions:-
The airfield is well drained and is flyable for most of the year but occasionally suffers waterlogging and/or subsequent damage after prolonged periods of rain in winter with occasional closure or reduced operations (no landings/touch & go's during circuits).
Wind directions and local features occasionally stop flying at Netherthorpe when other airfields continue to fly.
The Aerobats that Phoenix use have a little more grunt than other 150/152's and so have better take off performance - useful out of Netherthorpe.
They are also well maintained and equipped.
For your 'membership' of SAC you get a good clubhouse, if this is something that you feel a need for it'll cost you extra.
There are no membership charges at Phoenix but the tea is free and there's always someone to talk to.
Both operations have employed 'hour builders' instructors on occasions - they've always been professional.
I have more experience of Phoenix's instructors and cannot recommend them highly enough - very professional, very experienced and always willing to help.
I have very limited experience of SAC instructors, I know one or two and they too would be recommended.
For my money - Phoenix - and they organise fly out days in the summer where students are welcome.
I never regretted doing my PPL & IMC at Phoenix and my night qual. with a Phoenix instructor.
BTW - As far as I know, SAC don't own the airfield they lease it and are the operator.
And there's been a few Cessna shaped holes in the hedges!
7700
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And there's been a few Cessna shaped holes in the hedges!
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I can think of two C150's so don't think it doesn't happen with Cessna's (and they're the one's that immediately spring to mind, there's possibly others) - also there on the day a Tommy went in, and seen the result of a couple of PA28 prangs.
A Robin came pretty close to nesting in the hedge one day.
And it's not always visitors that have the problems - the resident 150 that stalled in a couple of years ago on t/o.
7700
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Rod that's very true and I was going to add it to my post that with any airfield that's only 450-500m long any EFATO or stall scenario is likely to result in an off airfield 'arrival'.
With the performance that some of the aircraft operating out of Netherthorpe have the climb rate can easily be overcome by, say, flying through the sinking air on the outside of a thermal or the curl over from trees - air going down at 300-600fpm negates any ROC at MAUW - and it does happen - climb rate drops to zero (or less) they keep pulling back and.............
You only have to go a little way to the west to get caught in the lee of the Pennines and I'm sure Netherthorpe suffers from this on occasion.
Why do you think Phoenix changed to 130hp 150's?
7700
With the performance that some of the aircraft operating out of Netherthorpe have the climb rate can easily be overcome by, say, flying through the sinking air on the outside of a thermal or the curl over from trees - air going down at 300-600fpm negates any ROC at MAUW - and it does happen - climb rate drops to zero (or less) they keep pulling back and.............
You only have to go a little way to the west to get caught in the lee of the Pennines and I'm sure Netherthorpe suffers from this on occasion.
Why do you think Phoenix changed to 130hp 150's?
7700