28 day check - logged as P1 or PUT?

[S-Works]

Love your pun about the Wright brothers--your so funny but I remain stable and seated..

Good job at your age, I suppose the colostomy bag helps keep the movement down to a minimum or at least regular.

So can we assume that you actually have no Instructional qualifications that are applicable to GA and you are in fact just pontificating on a subject you know very little about with the hope that repetition starts to sound like authority?

I am sure I am not the only one who is curious.

However if it turns out you are a truly a sky god and we can actually learn from you I will be the first to prostrate myself in the ground in front of you in the manner of the unworthy.

So pray tell enlighten us about your significant GA teaching experience. I am sure someone as old and as wise as you must have great teaching stories indeed to share with us.

[llanfairpg]

So can we assume that you actually have no Instructional qualifications

You can assume what you like and you know every time I look at that colostomy bag I cant help thinking of you.

Why not concentrate your effort on the IMC rating, the campaign and I use the term advisedly, is already a disorganised shambles, part in fact to the attiude you are displaying.

[S-Works]

Nah, winding you up is proving to be far to much fun instead.

You can assume what you like and you know every time I look at that colostomy bag I cant help thinking of you.

What not feeling uncomfortable about me pointing out that you may be talking the contents of it?

[llanfairpg]

not feeling uncomfortable about me pointing out that you may be talking the contents of it

Hey you got something right, we are making progress already

[Lucy Lastic]

Here is an ad from a group

>>>>New members adapt quickly to our aircraft which are exceptionally pilot-friendly and a joy to fly after most other aircraft. After a thorough briefing, most start as P1 with an experienced member in support for the first hour or two until they feel comfortable to “go it alone”.<<<<

[C-dog]

What a wonderful thread this has turned out to be - better than any soap opera.

I seemed to have had it easy when I joined my group all those years ago. Sat in the LH seat with two other group members aboard, flew around for a bit, landed. Logged P1, can't remember who payed, probably on my first monthly bill after joining the group.

Keep it up, we'll reach page 28 soon.

[S-Works]

Keep it up, we'll reach page 28 soon.

To be fair I should have chosen a lower number is the effort of getting there is quite tiring......

[Whirlybird]

But bose-x, so entertaining. Surely you can manage a few more pages of similar for the benefit of we non-sky-gods, who long ago gave up trying to understand what all this was about, who just go flying, take someone along if we or someone else feels it's a good idea, and log whatever seems reasonable at the time. Go on, I know you can!

[S-Works]

Whirly, who am I to deny a lady......

To be fair though I lost the will to live on page one after I gave my original view that I let them log P1. The remaining 13 pages came from a mix of abuse and people desperate to be P1 on a club check justifying there actions!!

[DFC]

I agree that a check flight, where a prospective hirer is being checked out by a (presumably experienced) PPL has a bit of a dubious status. Indeed, on the one hand you designate the prospective hirer as PIC, on the other hand he's being checked by someone who doesn't have had formal training to train or check somebody, but who does limit what the PIC can do (particularly he limits the ability of the PIC to refuse to take the check pilot as passenger).

That is what I am trying to get across. You can not say that a pilot needs to be checked out and then let them be pilot in command before they have completed the checkout you require.

This is single pilot ops.

The only way that two crew members can log the flight time on a checkout is for one of them to be an instructor.

As llanfairpg said previously, if two pilots are flying together and one has the ability (by agreement) to override the other pilot by taking control then the person with the ability to override the other is the pilot in command. Passengers do not have any authority to override a pilot in flight. In fact it is clearly defined as being illegal.

Saying that if you see something dangerous or that you do not like will cause you to take control is saying very clearly that you are taking responsibility for the safety of the flight and that you will through whatever actions are necessary ensure the safety fo the flight. In other words you are saying that you are the pilot in command. There is no other way to look at such a statement.

Having decided who is pilot in command then the other person is either dual or a passenger.

If the pilot who needs a checkout is pilot in command then the rule requiring a checkout has been broken because they are pilot in command without complying with the requirement to be checked out.

There is no system for and it is not possible to change the pilot in command during normal flight time.

Regards,

DFC

[Contacttower]

Surely the solution is for the 'check out' pilot to be P1 and the pilot being checked to log nothing, that way there is no ambiguity at all about who is in command.

I know many don't seem to agree with DFC on this issue; it seems that's because in practice having 'two' PICs works fine, but it would just take one crazy prospective group member to disagree with the 'check' pilot over something, refuse to hand over control and then accuse the 'check' pilot of attempting a hijack. Ambiguity over who is the real captain can cause accidents.

[DFC]

Surely the solution is for the 'check out' pilot to be P1 and the pilot being checked to log nothing, that way there is no ambiguity at all about who is in command.

Yes but if there is simply 2 PPLs then the person being checked can log the flight but they can only record the sole manipulation of the controls and not P1 time.

If the P1 is an instructor then they can log the time as dual.

Ambiguity over who is the real captain can cause accidents.

and insurance / legal disputes.

Regards,

DFC

[Wessex Boy]

Wow 13 pages!
I don't come over to the 'dark side' often, but when I do, I am reminded of why I don't!

[Al Smith]

Well boys and girls I'm none the wiser.

A very interesting thread, but I still do not know whether I can log P1 when in an aircraft with an instructor.

[shortstripper]

Bl@@dy glad I fly a single seater

[S-Works]

A very interesting thread, but I still do not know whether I can log P1 when in an aircraft with an instructor.

Well if you are current under CAA/JAA regs and come and fly with me and require no Instruction then I am happy for you to log P1 and I will log nothing.

Don't know about other Instructors though!

[DFC]

I am happy for you to log P1 and I will log nothing.

Which is perfectly correct if you are a passenger on any flight. God help us, do I have to check if you are down the back of a commercial flight and if you are going to log something simply because you have an instructor rating and are on board?

However, if an instructor is performing any function on the flight then they have to be a member of the crew and record their time as such......only option being P1 on a single pilot aircraft.

I would suggest that BOSE's statement of

Well if you are current under CAA/JAA regs and come and fly with me

Clearly indicates that it is BOSE who is inviting you along on their flight not the other way round. Do you get many passengers inviting you as the only pilot along on their flight? In private aviation is it not the pilot who brings other people along on the flight?

--------------

I have asked about this system of pilots being "checked out" agreeing to be pilot in command. What I was told is that it is amazing in such a rush to sue culture that people would leave themselves open to ruin with absolutely no defence should an accident happen.

The reasoning was that you present yourself for a check flight because for whatever reason you are not happy yourself or the owner is not happy or the club rules require or for whatever other reason you like you can not simply take the aircraft and a passenger to go flying.

If you agree to be P1 and for example BoseX agrees to be simply a passenger, in the event of a fatal accident you can rest assured that BOSE's estate will sue your ass off because you took command of the aircraft carrying a passenger when you knew you should not have and by doing so were negligent.

From a legal point of view, in such a case your would be far better flying solo to regain currency. In other words do it with an instructor or someone else who is P1 or do it solo.

Regards,

DFC

[Julian]

God help us, do I have to check if you are down the back of a commercial flight and if you are going to log something simply because you have an instructor rating and are on board?

Thats a whole different situation than being sat up front. Or is that a practice you have experience of?

The reasoning was that you present yourself for a check flight because for whatever reason you are not happy yourself or the owner is not happy or the club rules require or for whatever other reason you like you can not simply take the aircraft and a passenger to go flying.

Or, as we have said, the aircraft owner(s) wish to show how to fly the aircraft within their requirements.

because you took command of the aircraft carrying a passenger when you knew you should not have and by doing so were negligent.

In what way are you negligent if you hold the relevant licence and are not breaking rules such as 90day rule?

Do you have something in for BOSE? Seem to quite like attacking him.....

J.

[DFC]

Thats a whole different situation than being sat up front. Or is that a practice you have experience of?

Please explain the difference bertween being a passenger seated in 1A and a passenger seated in 32B

A passenger is a passenger. They have no loggging rights regardless of what licence they hold or what seat they sit in and more importantly for this case have no right to interact in any way with the crew other than as a passenger and must not "interfere" with the conduct of the flight.

Or, as we have said, the aircraft owner(s) wish to show how to fly the aircraft within their requirements.

What does the insurance say about demonstration flights?

More importantly, if you accept that a pilot is qualified to fly the aircraft as pilot in command then you accept that they can fly it within the limitations you set but bearing in mind that provided they operate the aircraft in accordance with the law and thre flight manual you can not complain.

Remember that in the case of a private aircraft, the pilot in command is for the duration of the flight, the operator.

You want me to cruise at 90 knots in the PARO and I will do it while flying with you. What is to stop me applying max rental power when you are not there?

In what way are you negligent if you hold the relevant licence and are not breaking rules such as 90day rule?

Examples;

1. You decide you are rusty and need a check........you do not get a check but carry a passenger as P1......following an accident on that flight and court case will ask why you proceed to be pilot in command when you knew you were rusty?

2. The club requires a check because you do not meet the club 28 day rule requirements for being pilot in command. You were pilot in command and carried a passenger when your club rules said you were not to be. Passenger sues you following accident because you knew that according to the club rules (designed to enhance safety) you could not be pilot in command. The club also sues for loss of income and the insurance company join the band.

3. The aircraft owner requires a checkout of pilots because that is their right.
You departed with a passenger in the owner's aircraft before having completed the checkout the owner requires. anf after a heavy landing the owner sues you for personal loss and loss to the aircraft which as operator you are responsible for.

That is why I wonder at people who are willing to agree to take sole responsibility for a flight which they are doing simply because they are (for whatever reason) not capable of being pilot in command of.

Regards,

DFC

[homeguard]

Who's who?

What a load of rubbish!