Safer Flying?

[princepilot]

Hi,

Just passed my PPL.

Ive heard of quite a few people having crashes in light aircraft and have come to the conclusion that the 2 main reasons of fatalities is due to the aircraft bursting into flames on impact or the impact itself.

I have seen an aircraft i want to buy and it is a cessna with a centurion diesel engine conversion. If i was to put a ballistic parachute onto that then that would make flying alot safer wouldnt it?

In the event of loss of control i could just pull the parachute , and therefore wouldnt die from the impact. And even if i did have a good hard impact , diesel doesnt expode does it?

Matt

[eltonioni]

Sounds like a good plan. With all that extra weight it will magically turn into a two seater, so fewer people will die.

Statistically it will be twice as safe as a normal 172.

[princepilot]

So you obviously think it's a waste of money or a bad idea then?

[eltonioni]

No, just pointing out that there are negatives as well as positives. Personally I'd spend the money on training and experience so that I didn't end up losing control. It seems to me to be missing the point to spend loads of money something to mitigate the chances of death after a cock up.

From what I understand, the ballistic parachutes may well save your life, but you're likely to suffer spinal damage in the (not quite so hard) impact anyway.

A modern aeroplane with a safety cell might be money better spent than worrying whether Jet A1 burns as easily as Avgas in a C172. Gliders don't have any fuel and pilots usually wear parachutes, but glider drivers still die.

You could always take up table tennis to be totally sure that you'll be safe.

[justinmg]

Princepilot,
If you have just passed your PPL, I would recommend learning more first before thinking of buying an aircraft. You can not just put a chute on an aircraft even if it was a good idea. For a certified aircraft, what you buy is what you get. Just putting new avionics in can be a massive paperwork exersize.

[julian_storey]

I would echo what several other people on here have said. The best investment you can make right now is further training.

A parachute will only really be of help in the event of a major structural failure and the chances of a major structural failure on a well maintained Cessna are so minute, that I would really be worried about it happening.

[drambuster]

Princepilot

I think you will find that you may need a Supplemental Type Certificate to retrofit a ballistic parachute (BRS) to your Cessna and there probably isn't one available. I believe Cessna are planning to introduce them on new aircraft in the near future but this almost certainly won't cover the existing fleet. The idea is probably a non-starter.

You also have to consider whether they actually will make your flying safer in any event. The safety record of Cirrus in the States is not good. There is speculation that the 'security blanket' of a BRS may make some pilots complacent and end up in situations they might not otherwise have got themselves into !

The following quote is from AVweb who reviewed the Cirrus and commented on the poor safety record. Several owners got upset about the facts being highlighted which prompted the following response:

AVweb Responds:
While we're all for Cirrus or any other manufacturer being recognized in the popular press for producing a terrific product, we also don't feel compelled to sugar coat the other side of the story. The fact is, on a rate basis, the Cirrus accident rate is substantially higher than other brands and models we've examined. And while it's true that most of these accidents were due to pilot error, it may also be true that having sophisticated safety systems available changes the way some pilots look at risk. Or has Cirrus simply had a run of bad luck? The airplane is simply too new to know. In the meantime, we think it's fair to report factually on the accident record.
Paul Bertorelli
Editorial Director

I would entirely agree with Eltonioni that you should focus on training and experience as the best way to spend your money. Don't worry too much about impacts and explosions as this might start to effect your judgement and confidence. As you get a few more hours under your belt you will find it relaxing and fun. Try and split your flying with a mixture of well planned self-flown touring, getting more adventurous each time. The other flying should be continual training with an instructor (or experienced old salt from the club!) to keep honing your handling, circuits, PFLs etc. Make sure you are experienced in obtaining weather reports both before and during flight so that you never get yourself into a difficult situation. Just keep expanding your confidence so that there is no doubt in your mind that you truly are 'Pilot in Command'

Also, take a quick look at the following AOPA Safety publication which has some interesting summaries of ballistic parachute deployment on page 16.

Great if you have one . . . . but don't worry if you haven't !

Enjoy your flying

www.aopa.org/asf/publications/taa_1_6.pdf

[drambuster]

Reasons for BRS deployment

Julian_storey:
"A parachute will only really be of help in the event of a major structural failure"

Julian, while I agree with your view that training is the way ahead, I would comment that none of the Cirrus BRS deployments have been due to spontaneous airframe failure (there was one aileron that fell off but that was due to maintenance error). Most of the incidents seem to relate to pilot error - usually getting into turbulent or otherwise harsh IMC conditions (which could have been avoided). Other incidents occurred due to spin practice which is prohibited in the POH ()

[Fuji Abound]

I can understand your thinking.

In the early days after your ppl all sorts of fears creap in.

Here is my take.

1. A ballistic chute is a very good idea for a IFR capable touring aircraft. There are occasions if you are going to fly in all weather over rugged terrain where a BC can be a life saver - low cloudbase, night, terrain with no suitable landing area etc.

2. Realistically you will never get approval to fit one to a certified aircraft - so whilst in theory a very good idea - forget it. In Euro land it is a major mod and if you went down this road there will be no change out of £50K - maybe more! In any event you are far better off buying an aircraft with one fitted when and if your needs demand (see above)

3. Nearly all fatal accidents are due to pilot error and most occur in the circuit (where a chute may be of little benefit anyway). The other common reasons, CFIT and loss of control in IMC, are both avoidable.

4. In short in a well maintained aircraft if you exclude pilot error you would have to be very unlucky indeed to suffer a fatal accident for other reasons.

5. In a SEP loss of an engine is a small risk. In the majority of cases a forced landing (even if you had a chute fitted) is the best way down but pilots do not practise FL enough.

In short invest your money in the best maintenance you can, keep on investing in training until you are happy you can cope with almost anything you are likely to enounter, buy an aircraft when you are ready with as low a time engine as you can afford, learn how to fly as defensively as possible - you be glad you spent your money in this way rather than in any other.

[princepilot]

Fuji,

I will do that i think. I have just got my PPL but have 2 kids and a fiance and was just getting a bit twitchy about anything happening and losing them. I think i will invest another 5k in training and handling skills then i probably wont be so worried about the eventuality of a crash.

Matt

[llanfairpg]

Prince pilot--seriously suggest you read the Highway Code, you are more likely to have an accident to and from the airfield than in the aircraft if you fly safely--aircraft only bite fools.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

2 main reasons of fatalities

In fact the two main reasons are

(1) taking off when you should have stayed on the ground

(2) pressing on with Plan A long after a switch to Plan B was called for.

Included in the above are all the usual things, like

do not fly into cloud
do not run out of fuel

and so on and so on.

All of which basically means carry on taking seriously all the stuff you were taught.

Look at the statistics. "Loss of control", which you appear to be worried about, is a very small cause of crashes. Leaving out, that is, people who lose control when they fly into cloud they aren't qualified to fly in - but the solution to that one isn't adding widgets to the aircraft ... it's simply refraining from flying into cloud ... which in turn quite often simply means staying on the ground on days when the weather means you've got no business to go flying.

One thing I've found helpful which no instructor ever told me: when you offer someone a ride, if it's in summer you tell them that there's a 50/50 chance of it being cancelled due to bad weather, and if it's in winter you tell them that it's four to one on being cancelled because of bad weather, and you tell them that you might decide to cancel after they've taken the trouble to travel to the airport. That way there's no pressure from passengers to go flying when you shouldn't.

[drambuster]

princepilot

my suggestion for your immediate flying plans would be to join an established group at your flying club. Find one that seems to be well run, sociable and that keep the aircraft in top condition. You will then have great fun over the next couple of years joining in shared trips etc . . . and learning a vast amount in the process.

your club may also run regular 'fly-outs' and such like. Join up to as many of these as you can - and go with at least one of your group members.

I wouldn't bother to think about owning your 'own' aircraft until you reach at least 250 hours or so. Even if you can afford it, you will miss out on an essential part of the learning ladder !

[LH2]

I think i will invest another 5k in training and handling skills

That always sounds like a good plan.

Incidentally, last summer I was at an airfield in NE Spain (LECD - La Cerdanya) where I briefly met a local pilot and his wife in a C172--a couple weeks latter I read in the local press they had crashed in the mountains not far from there. Last night I was browsing the website of the Spanish equivalent of the AAIB and read the final report on this accident.

The cause? Loss of control after entering a stall while attempting to gain sufficient height to cross a ridge. This resulted in the death of the pilot who was not wearing his shoulder strap, and serious injuries to the two rear passengers--the remaining front seat occupant walked away with only light injuries.

This guy had been a PPL for about six months, with a grand total of about 120hrs. He had been flying his own plane.

It is my belief that, had he been flying a club aircraft, he would have been more likely to stay in contact with, and receive advice from, more experienced pilots who if nothing else would have had an interest in the integrity of the airframe (go on, call me a cynic ). As a matter of fact, in my aeroclub we have a number of private pilots who own their own planes but they still collaborate with the club--they participate in club activities, fly with other pilots, etc. I can't see these guys making such a basic, and tragic, handling mistake.

Bottom line, stay in touch, fly with, and listen to the more experienced pilots. Perhaps you will find someone you like and take him flying with you in exchange for his experience (plus in a spamcan you will often need two pilots anyhow to negotiate the most complex airspace, etc.)

HTH

PD: Crossed posts with the two above gentlemen, giving essentially the same advice.

PPD: Here's the link to the aforementioned accident report, in Spanish only I'm afraid: A-021/2007

[llanfairpg]

In fact the two main reasons are

(1) taking off when you should have stayed on the ground

(2) pressing on with Plan A long after a switch to Plan B was called for.

What you are trying to say is that the main reasons are

ATTITUDE TO AIRMANSHIP

Your own personal attitude is usualy the start of the error chain.

£5,000 of handling skills will not improve your chances of survival if you fly into a cloud with a hard centre.

[princepilot]

LH2,

You sound like a very wise person. I guess i just got ahead of myself and wanted to run befre i could walk. I only have £20k to buy an aircraft so might even just spend half of it on gaining experience and then look at my finances some point in the future.

Thanks
alot

Matt

[BackPacker]

Here's my 2 cents worth:

- Make a start with an IMC rating course
- Make a start with an unusual attitudes/aerobatics course

Even if you don't finish any of these courses, the experience you gain might save you some day.

- Join a club so that you can fly with other pilots, and have a purpose to your flying.

[llanfairpg]

It is my belief that, had he been flying a club aircraft, he would have been more likely to stay in contact with, and receive advice from, more experienced pilots who if nothing else would have had an interest in the integrity of the airframe (go on, call me a cynic ). As a matter of fact, in my aeroclub we have a number of private pilots who own their own planes but they still collaborate with the club--they participate in club activities, fly with other pilots, etc. I can't see these guys making such a basic, and tragic, handling mistake.

Bottom line, stay in touch, fly with, and listen to the more experienced pilots. Perhaps you will find someone you like and take him flying with you in exchange for his experience (plus in a spamcan you will often need two pilots anyhow to negotiate the most complex airspace, etc.)

Excellent point and the point I made about the Caenarfon accident--authorisation, which should contain an element of advice from a responsible experienced pilot

[llanfairpg]

- Make a start with an IMC rating course
- Make a start with an unusual attitudes/aerobatics course

My 2 cents worth

Find out what you should have been taught on the PPL course and make sure you have covered all of the syllabus. An awful lot gets left out with some schools/clubs or gets glossed over.

Go over cross country flying again and get as much experience in as you can, also fly with more experienced pilots.

The best and cheapest place to learn about airmanship is on the ground, read, ask questions etc.. You can learn an awful lot by reading accident reports.

[bookworm]

Excellent point and the point I made about the Caenarfon accident--authorisation, which should contain an element of advice from a responsible experienced pilot

Advice is great. Authorisation is more than advice, it's permission. It was the culture of authorisation that killed BK's crew at Blackpool. Whatever the CFI authorised, the pilot in command accepted, as he wasn't used to making his own decisions. So stop being a nanny and start letting pilots exercise the privileges of their licence to be the commander of an aircraft.