Cloud blamed in fatal plane crash

[IO540]

Quite amazing - they never taught me this in the IR.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/w...st/7113755.stm

[Three Yellows]

IO540,

I think your post is a tad disrespectful. Not everyone is an all singing all dancing IR super pilot like you.

Imagine how the poor pilot feels, given that he survived. We've all naerlt been there matey.

[DX Wombat]

IO540, just try to imagine that you were that pilot and then read what you have just written. If you are any sort of reasonably caring person I hope you might just be a little ashamed. The DEFINITVE version of events is here: The AAIB Report.

[sternone]

You guys need to start getting a grip, and stop taking everything too personal. IO540 is pointing out that this is one of the most common mistakes you get to learn first.. CFIT..

[17thhour]

cloud blamed...

yes...



think of the pilot mate.

[Three Yellows]

You guys need to start getting a grip, and stop taking everything too personal. IO540 is pointing out that this is one of the most common mistakes you get to learn first.. CFIT..

Wise words indeed Sternone, from someone that's never been allowed out of the circuit P1. I shouldn't think that there is a PROPER pilot on here who hasn't been in a sticky situation at one time or another.

[Contacttower]

IO540 is pointing out that this is one of the most common mistakes you get to learn first.. CFIT..

Common mistake? I by well hope not!

I shouldn't think that there is a PROPER pilot on here who hasn't been in a sticky situation at one time or another.

Quite, a recent little close shave with some terrain in South Africa reminded me just how thin the line is between crashing and dying and getting away with just a bad experience.

[toolowtoofast]

I have to agree with 540. A clear case of get-home-itis. And the coroner saying that the pilot was 'not aware of the change in ground level' is, in my view, a cop-out. Even I know that Snowdonia has a few hills, and I live a little further than Pontypool!

And yes, I have flown into cloud when supposedly VFR, but not with the intention of making over the tops of a ridge line

[sternone]

from someone that's never been allowed out of the circuit P1.

Even if i have finished my IR and logged many hours, i will hide it for you guys because this is way too much fun!!!

Common mistake?

Sorry, i was meaning a frequently occurence.. not a 'common' one

[Contacttower]

I got a bit more than this and the advice that if I ever did get lost in cloud to ascend to my safe altitude on instruments, trust the instruments and talk to someone who could get me back on the ground in one piece using radar vectors. I know this might not have been possible in this particular case due to terrain and location (I'm not commenting on this particular accident) but I wonder if many non-instrument PPL's are getting this advice?

Most schools do teach a bit more than this, and quite right IMHO. I was once told that a pilot with no IMC experience would loose control in about 40 seconds if s/he entered cloud. I don't know how true that really is, certainly instrument flight has never seemed that hard to me.

Before I got my IMC rating if I'd got into cloud over Snowdonia and the 180 degree turn didn't work I would have continued away from the mountains, told ATC what was happening and taken it from there. It's possible that this pilot simply ran out of time.

[Contacttower]

Even if i have finished my IR and logged many hours, i will hide it for you guys because this is way too much fun!!!

You know sternone before you posted that thread about going solo I had you down as quite an experienced pilot...you should have kept quiet about it!

[BackPacker]

I was once told that a pilot with no IMC experience would loose control in about 40 seconds if s/he entered cloud.

I have done the 180 on instruments, under the hood, during PPL training, and quite a lot more, but I do not have an IMC or IR rating. I also have a lot of experience flying MSFS on instruments, so I thought that I would be able to keep the plane sunny side up for a minute or so at least if I inadvertently would enter IMC.

With an (IR rated) instructor on board, I recently entered cloud while climbing. It took all of my brain capacity and mental will to trust the instruments, to keep the plane more or less level and in the minute that this lasted we still went off-course about 30 degrees, because I had enough trouble believing the AH to check the DI. And looking back I think I'm glad I got the plane properly trimmed 'cause I don't remember checking the ASI or Alt either. It scared the willies out of me.

Practice under the hood or MSFS is NOT the same as actual IMC. Vertigo and spatial disorientation is real but can't be simulated other than by flying in actual clouds.
So I doubt whether the advice

I got a bit more than this and the advice that if I ever did get lost in cloud to ascend to my safe altitude on instruments, trust the instruments and talk to someone who could get me back on the ground in one piece using radar vectors.

will actually work for a PPL with just the minimum simulated instrument time and no actual IMC experience.

[ShyTorque]

they never taught me this in the IR

IO540, I think its's relevant to think what you did or didn't know BEFORE the IR. Presumably, if the pilot of this aircraft had an IR himself he wouldn't have been there because he would have the experience and situational awareness to know how much danger he was putting himself in.

I think the clouds should be exonerated.

[Contacttower]

will actually work for a PPL with just the minimum simulated instrument time and no actual IMC experience.

For the PPL IF time I did do some in real cloud. It's interesting that in the US they have a concept of logging actual time in real IMC, perhaps we need that in JAR land?

I can't say for real what I would have done in the situation that this poor guy found himself in...but I'm not sure I'd have climbed...reason being if I'd turned 180 degrees away from the mountains the risk of hitting anything would be low, often if you enter cloud while flying VFR there is more cloud above you then below you and climbing further into it opens the possibility of stalling. Once on top you'd have to come back down through it as well.

So with that in mind what I would probably have done is try and hold straight and level...and after calling ATC descended under their guidance.

By the way I'd highly recommend the IMC rating!

[ShyTorque]

VFR only aircraft, cloud and rising ground have always been one of the most lethal combinations in aviation; I can't see this ever changing.

"If in doubt, chicken out" is a phrase that springs readily to mind.

[gcolyer]

I would not wish such an accident on my worst enemy, however......

1) Not knowing that there is high ground on your route (diversion or not) and being in Wales!!
2) Entering IMC with no IMCr or IR

is a recipe for a disaster. IO540 was merely pointing out that he was not aware that a cloud will make you crash!

[IO540]

I am happy to delete the thread, but from the replies so far I don't see a clear cut case for doing so.

I think its's relevant to think what you did or didn't know BEFORE the IR

Agreed; I was just taking the micky out of the stupid journalist who wrote that headline.

There was no intention to pass comment on the pilot.

[Contacttower]

I wouldn't delete the thread. It's generated good discussion which is a positive thing .

[DFC]

I would like to back-up IO540's posting and add that the pilot is very lucky that they have not been charged with manslaughter........do similar in your car or on the railway and you will!

"Inadvertent" entry into cloud is practically total bo11ox. Considering modern met data availability and the mobile telephone etc etc not to mention those nice big windows fitted to the aircraft.

You see a cloud, you decide if you want to fly into it or not.

OK the only alternative may be a precautionary landing but the fact is that forced landings poorly executed under control are far more surviveable than CFIT.

The departure climb must end at an altitude that provides 1000ft separation vertically from terrain within whatever navigational accuracy each side of track you can manage and this must be maintained as well as full VMC during the flight. The only exceptions being clearances in controlled airspace and low level corridors where operation at minimum level can be normal.

If you can not maintain 1000ft above terrain within Xnm each side of track then you divert.

Sods law says that during the diversion the weather gets worse so you may end up being forced to operate a level between the 1000ft minium and a 500ft minimum level.

If that is hard then simply a precautionary landing with power is the safer option.

Basic training!

I remember a rather heated debate some time back about turn back in a valley or go IMC or make a precautionary landing. Perhaps this pilot did not read that debate.

Having operated from Mona before, I can say that everyone with a map in that area recognises the coastal route to the river Dee.

Regards,

DFC

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I was once told that a pilot with no IMC experience would loose control in about 40 seconds if s/he entered cloud. I don't know how true that really is, certainly instrument flight has never seemed that hard to me.

I think I've more commonly heard 180 seconds, but that's life expectancy, not time-to-loss-of-control.

Personally with only the PPL instrument training I never had any trouble flying on instruments ... with an instrument rated instructor sitting next to me, ie no risk, no pressure, I could always chicken out and say "you have control". But ... I suspect that the same is true of every non-instrument pilot who has lost control in IMC, so I don't think that proves much. It's what you do when it's unexpected and you're on your own that matters.

I'm now on an IMCR course. The other day I completely lost it, pitch all over the place, overcontrolling up and down and sideways ... brought it back under control, at which point the instructor, who sat there calmly watching throughout with his hands in his lap, said "look at the localiser needle, your heading is wrong". I have no idea what would have happened without the instructor sitting there, even though he didn't do anything - I knew he would take control if necessary, so I was only at risk of looking silly, not at risk of ending up dead.