Cloud blamed in fatal plane crash
The Original Whirly
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flying to Caernarfon.......just the same as flying into Wellesbourne
Caernarfon's circuits are 800 ft. So are lots of airfields. Is that a problem?
Caernarfon's shortest runway is 938m. Wellesbourne's is 587m. I know where I'd be happier to send a low hours pilot who wasn't totally current with short field take-offs and landings.
Caernarfon is indeed very close to Valley...who incidentally are closed at weekends. Wellesbourne is 3nm from the southern boundary of Birmingham CTA (base 1500') and below CTA (base 3500'). This is the CTA of an extremely busy regional airport.
Caernarfon's 2000 ft obstacle is clearly marked on charts, and doesn't move. OTOH, microlights out of Long Marston, and gliders out of Snitterfield, both very close to Wellesbourne, have an annoying habit of moving around and not telling anyone as they're often non-radio.
Taking off over the sea is no different to over land unless you have an engine failure. I can't remember, but I don't think the land around Wellesbourne is that great for an EFATO landing. And emergencies are thankfully rare.
The mountains are 10 miles away from Caernarfon. So what? 10 miles or 100 miles - you don't need to fly in them unless you choose to.
So - two very different airfields, both needing care and attention to fly to them safely. But don't all airfields need this? Isn't that why we have pilot training.
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Whirly,
I am afraid you are so right and yet the know-alls will not believe you until they experience the cloud, high ground and very often severe turbulence of Snowdonia.
As you so rightly point out the North Wales coast route is benign but you omit one driving force that propels novice or arrogant pilots to take the short cut. In a word...cost!
They are trying to save 30-45 minutes flying time and rental of the aircraft.
They often pay with their life!
I am afraid you are so right and yet the know-alls will not believe you until they experience the cloud, high ground and very often severe turbulence of Snowdonia.
As you so rightly point out the North Wales coast route is benign but you omit one driving force that propels novice or arrogant pilots to take the short cut. In a word...cost!
They are trying to save 30-45 minutes flying time and rental of the aircraft.
They often pay with their life!
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I am afraid you are so right and yet the know-alls will not believe you until they experience the cloud, high ground and very often severe turbulence of Snowdonia
Anyone who has been walking in the Welsh Mountains or the Lake District will tell you that you can be looking at clear, blue skies ahead of you one minute and see thick, grey cloud rolling down the mountainside the next. Cloud in mountainous, or hilly areas can be extremely unpredictable. I live almost 1,000' up in the Pennines and see it on a very regular basis.I still haven't made it to Sleap
I must have another try sometime.
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This is the price we pay for not having an accessible IR (which would enable comfortable VMC-on-top flight at levels which are currently Class A) and not having GPS approaches.
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Also an airspace structure that means even IMCrs need to workout their MEAs by hand (and potentially for several different routes to cater for CAS clearances not being available) rather than fly a nice network of low level airways.
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High ground and aircraft are a bad companions you will find more bits of aircraft in the Snowdon range than you will around Wellesbourne or Sleap.
Two members of the same flying club in different accidents in the Snowdon range!
Stress and fatigue as a cause, look more in the direction that this pilot had had one shot at getting back already, this was his second attempt to turn back a second time would involve many irrational emotions it is better to suffer from when on the ground.
The law requires a commander of an aircraft to check to see if IMC conditions exist on the route he is about to fly, quite clearly on this occassion IMC conditions did exist on that route. The commander took off, I believe, knowing this on the common undisclipined basis of 'having a go'.
It is my belief that possibly with better training and better supervision this accident could have avoided.
Wombat --- Cloud in mountainous, or hilly areas can be extremely unpredictable as you say but the airstream or frontal systym that gives rise to those conditions are quite predicatable.
You mentioned the mast on the Wrekin, did you hire the a/c from HG?
Two members of the same flying club in different accidents in the Snowdon range!
Stress and fatigue as a cause, look more in the direction that this pilot had had one shot at getting back already, this was his second attempt to turn back a second time would involve many irrational emotions it is better to suffer from when on the ground.
The law requires a commander of an aircraft to check to see if IMC conditions exist on the route he is about to fly, quite clearly on this occassion IMC conditions did exist on that route. The commander took off, I believe, knowing this on the common undisclipined basis of 'having a go'.
It is my belief that possibly with better training and better supervision this accident could have avoided.
Wombat --- Cloud in mountainous, or hilly areas can be extremely unpredictable as you say but the airstream or frontal systym that gives rise to those conditions are quite predicatable.
You mentioned the mast on the Wrekin, did you hire the a/c from HG?
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But having that ability is still no use unless the pilot is trained to do it safely in an aircraft suitably equipped for it. A low hours pilot is still very vulnerable to the vagaries of the weather, especially in the UK. Perhaps no pilot should be allowed out of the circuit by himself until he has an IR? No, I'm not being serious.
An IR or any other rating doesn't make a pilot invulnerable to basic mistakes such as flying in cloud to high ground with insufficient altitude to pass over it.
An IR or any other rating doesn't make a pilot invulnerable to basic mistakes such as flying in cloud to high ground with insufficient altitude to pass over it.
The Original Whirly
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It's not just in hills that weather can do some apparently strange things. I have memories of taking off from Manston, heading for Le Touquet, in haze that everyone said would vanish above 1000 ft. It didn't; instead, little cumulous clouds started forming all around us. At 5000 ft we realised climbing wasn't working, descended through a hole, and diverted to Lydd. And you can't get a lot closer to sea level than Manston.
This is aviation. Anywhere in the UK, and probably in a similar fashion anywhere in the world. You learn to understand weather, and/or get suitably equipped aircraft and relevant ratings so that maybe you don't have to. And you hope you fill your bag of experience before your bag of luck runs out.
Or else you only go flying when it's CAVOK; your choice.
This is aviation. Anywhere in the UK, and probably in a similar fashion anywhere in the world. You learn to understand weather, and/or get suitably equipped aircraft and relevant ratings so that maybe you don't have to. And you hope you fill your bag of experience before your bag of luck runs out.
Or else you only go flying when it's CAVOK; your choice.
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Some people should not be allowed out of the circuit without an IR--I like it, but I have known IR Pilots make pretty awful mistakes too.
One in particular to one very senior airline pilot who stayed too long on site doing aerial photography realised he couldnt make it back to base at BHX, diverted to Manchester and hit Kinder Scout in cloud, they all survived.
At the end of the day its not just about the qualification you have its about your attitude to flying (as you can see from the postings on this forum).
If you follow the rules and procedures and use caution rather than bravado you only have the journey home in the car to worry about. (Just think if everyone drove around as they did on test how many more road users would be still alive today!)
One in particular to one very senior airline pilot who stayed too long on site doing aerial photography realised he couldnt make it back to base at BHX, diverted to Manchester and hit Kinder Scout in cloud, they all survived.
At the end of the day its not just about the qualification you have its about your attitude to flying (as you can see from the postings on this forum).
If you follow the rules and procedures and use caution rather than bravado you only have the journey home in the car to worry about. (Just think if everyone drove around as they did on test how many more road users would be still alive today!)
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You mentioned the mast on the Wrekin, did you hire the a/c from HG?
I knew about the mast because I have spent a fair amount of time flying around there and in and out of the AIAA and Shawbury MATZ. Actually, I think it's about time Shawbury gave me a season ticket for flying through. 
They will probably be VERY relieved to hear I am no longer flying a certain C152.
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The reason I asked is did the FTO at HG have a briefing sheet describing that mast. for a flight to Sleap or Hawarden
Getting back to our ideal club/school there should be briefing sheets for the local and most popular destinations, best to find out about hazards on the ground rather than in the air!
Getting back to our ideal club/school there should be briefing sheets for the local and most popular destinations, best to find out about hazards on the ground rather than in the air!
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The reason I asked is did the FTO at HG have a briefing sheet describing that mast. for a flight to Sleap or Hawarden
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Not so sure about adding 300ft.
There are exactly two ways to do flight planning:
VFR or IFR.
There is no halfway. It's people that fly "halfway" that have by far the most CFITs.
If you plan for VFR then you have to remain VMC 100% of the time, and unless the vis is poor you should not fly into anything. (I know that "100% VMC" is impractical for actually going anywhere, and they don't tell you this when you start your £8000 PPL, but that isn't the point).
If you plan for IFR then you plan the MSA properly, and plan for an instrument approach (or some other safe form of descent, e.g. over the sea) at the destination. The flight may or may not be in cloud for some or all of the time, but that's irrelevant.
Nowadays, with a really good big moving map GPS running the actual topo chart (say, the CAA VFR chart), one could just fly around Wales, in cloud, below MSA, in the valleys, but 99% of pilots don't have such equipment and also if that one unit packed up what do you do? An immediate climb may not be good enough.
One has to be clear - there is no halfway stage in flight planning. It has to be all-VMC or fully IFR.
There are exactly two ways to do flight planning:
VFR or IFR.
There is no halfway. It's people that fly "halfway" that have by far the most CFITs.
If you plan for VFR then you have to remain VMC 100% of the time, and unless the vis is poor you should not fly into anything. (I know that "100% VMC" is impractical for actually going anywhere, and they don't tell you this when you start your £8000 PPL, but that isn't the point).
If you plan for IFR then you plan the MSA properly, and plan for an instrument approach (or some other safe form of descent, e.g. over the sea) at the destination. The flight may or may not be in cloud for some or all of the time, but that's irrelevant.
Nowadays, with a really good big moving map GPS running the actual topo chart (say, the CAA VFR chart), one could just fly around Wales, in cloud, below MSA, in the valleys, but 99% of pilots don't have such equipment and also if that one unit packed up what do you do? An immediate climb may not be good enough.
One has to be clear - there is no halfway stage in flight planning. It has to be all-VMC or fully IFR.
The Original Whirly
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Getting back to our ideal club/school there should be briefing sheets for the local and most popular destinations, best to find out about hazards on the ground rather than in the air!
I've never seen such a thing, and I've had several home airfields. My substitute has been asking other pilots, but that only works on the right day with the right people! Such briefing sheets could not only tell you about hazards, but also the best routes, bad weather alternatives etc. Perhaps they could even tell you about nice things to see on the way and what the restaurant is like on arrival...might mean more pilots would actually read them.
In fact, if some of us reading this wrote up a few for our home airfields, I can't see many places refusing to have them. Would be useful. Might even prevent a few accidents.
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The briefing sheets already exist as a combination of the chart, NOTAM, AIS, Pooleys/AFE/Botthing/etc, airfield website and telephone. Expecting somebody to bring all this together in to a more ergonomic form will probably be asking for trouble as it will soon be out of date but yet won't be reliably updated!
In my humble opinion, Drauk's DSC free to use web application (http://fly.dsc.net/u/Home) is the best effort to bring as much of this together in as easy to use package as possible.
In my humble opinion, Drauk's DSC free to use web application (http://fly.dsc.net/u/Home) is the best effort to bring as much of this together in as easy to use package as possible.
The Original Whirly
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Yes, of course all the information is available. But a newish PPL, even if he/she reads all that, isn't going to remember it easily. Plus it doesn't give the stuff you specifically need if flying from your home airfield. Such as a reminder to be careful of the UNMARKED mast on the Wrekin, clearly visible, but not if the cloud comes down. A reminder that if you fly from Welshpool or Shobdon to Caernarfon and the weather changes, the coastal route is the only safe one but it's a long way....so don't go if the days are short or you're tired. Which way round Birmingham, east or west, is easiest if you're going from an airfield north of it to Wellesbourne. Which regional airports are actually likely to give you zone transit, and which will tell you to get lost. (I mean remain outside controlled airspace ). There are loads of these sort of things, no big deal if you're experienced, but gotchas for low hours pilots.
I'd have liked it when I started anyway. And it might have prevented a few narrow escapes....for another time on another thread.
). There are loads of these sort of things, no big deal if you're experienced, but gotchas for low hours pilots.I'd have liked it when I started anyway. And it might have prevented a few narrow escapes....for another time on another thread.
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Maybe it is my writing style that failed to communicate that I agree it could be easier and I would have liked a sort of "Popham for Dummies" (or whatever) when I started too
What we need is a GA wiki for UK pilots. For those not in the know, a wiki is a information web site that is freely updatable by the users, the most famous is www.wikipedia.org. If such a thing existed, perhaps Drauk could place a link on the airfield information page where he already shows other airfield data and related NOTAM that is access from the the generated PLOG. Perhaps Drauk could host the wiki too?
Just a thought...
What we need is a GA wiki for UK pilots. For those not in the know, a wiki is a information web site that is freely updatable by the users, the most famous is www.wikipedia.org. If such a thing existed, perhaps Drauk could place a link on the airfield information page where he already shows other airfield data and related NOTAM that is access from the the generated PLOG. Perhaps Drauk could host the wiki too?
Just a thought...
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Completly agree Whirley.
Get 10 different pilots in the bar who have been somewhere and you may get 10 different bits of information that are not in Pooleys etc (Tony!) but may make your flight more enjoyable and even safer.
Only problem is when you come to fly to XXX airfield those 10 pilots are generally not in the bar waiting to inform you!
I believe and it is a systym we operated, it actually encorages pilots to visit other airfields other than sticking to just the qualifying cross country airfilelds after PPL.
It dosnt take that long to put together and is s good project for a ground day. The big plus these days is you can very easily put some photos in as well. In fact you can encorage members to supply photos and information.
Forgotten by many is that PPL flying is a service industry and those who provide the best service usually have the best businesses.
Get 10 different pilots in the bar who have been somewhere and you may get 10 different bits of information that are not in Pooleys etc (Tony!) but may make your flight more enjoyable and even safer.
Only problem is when you come to fly to XXX airfield those 10 pilots are generally not in the bar waiting to inform you!
I believe and it is a systym we operated, it actually encorages pilots to visit other airfields other than sticking to just the qualifying cross country airfilelds after PPL.
It dosnt take that long to put together and is s good project for a ground day. The big plus these days is you can very easily put some photos in as well. In fact you can encorage members to supply photos and information.
Forgotten by many is that PPL flying is a service industry and those who provide the best service usually have the best businesses.
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Tony
Just looked at that link, its just the basic information which really any pilot is obliged by law to check before flight. You cannot beat advice from reliable pilots who have flown a route into a place several times, in my opinion.
You may for instance want to consider carrying life jackets for a Caernarfon flight you will not find that info in notams and Pooleys.
You may like to know that the RAF low fly in the valleys around the Snowdon range especially to the SE.
You may want to try and have a look at the Dinorwig power station buried in the side of the mountain.
You may want to see some advice on standing wave and how to fly over high ground safely.
You may want to fly up Lake Vynwry at low level (one of the best safest inland places to try it apart from Mon-Fri)
You may want some information on flying within the Llanberis pass.
You may be suprised to see a steam train climbing up Snowdon.
And finally you might want to know (before you go) that two pilots from the same flying club have flown into the Snowdon range along with countless RAF aircraft.
Just looked at that link, its just the basic information which really any pilot is obliged by law to check before flight. You cannot beat advice from reliable pilots who have flown a route into a place several times, in my opinion.
You may for instance want to consider carrying life jackets for a Caernarfon flight you will not find that info in notams and Pooleys.
You may like to know that the RAF low fly in the valleys around the Snowdon range especially to the SE.
You may want to try and have a look at the Dinorwig power station buried in the side of the mountain.
You may want to see some advice on standing wave and how to fly over high ground safely.
You may want to fly up Lake Vynwry at low level (one of the best safest inland places to try it apart from Mon-Fri)
You may want some information on flying within the Llanberis pass.
You may be suprised to see a steam train climbing up Snowdon.
And finally you might want to know (before you go) that two pilots from the same flying club have flown into the Snowdon range along with countless RAF aircraft.