Use Of AutoPilot in IMC

[FlyingForFun]

There are a lot of posts on this thread where people are touting their own opinions as being "fact".

Just because a particular pilot does not feel it is safe to fly an IFR trip without an autopilot, that does not mean that it is not safe for another pilot.

It all depends on your experience level, your currency, your knowledge of the route, your knowledge of the aircraft, etc, etc, etc. If a pilot regularly flies IFR without an autopilot, and flies the same route (or small selection of routes) every week (and therefore knows all the reporting points, ATC gotchas, etc), and maybe has a moving map GPS, and the weather is fairly benign (solid IMC is fine, but not so bumpy you have to work hard to fly S+L), then I would guess that this particular pilot could fly those routes incredibly safely. Almost everyone who passes a UK IR is in current practice at doing this (but not quite everyone...), so if a pilot were to get an IR and then continue to hand-fly similar routes to his IR there is no reason he shouldn't be able to do so safely.

On the other hand, as a private pilot, it is up to you to assess your currency and ability, and if you don't feel you can undertake the flight safely, then don't do it.

For me, personally, I'd use the autopilot every time if it was there. But if it wasn't there, it wouldn't be a no-go item.

The original question asked about an IMC rating. I would say that, after a 15 hours course, you are not in a position to be able to carry out flights of this length in solid IMC safely. But if that is what you are planning on doing, then find yourself a good instructor, and do 30-40 hours on the IMC course instead of the 15 hour minimum, then go for it. There's nothing that says that a course can't be extended to cover what the student actually needs to get out of it!

A couple of other misconceptions on this thread. Autopilot has been allowed on single-pilot IR renewal flights for quite some time, and in fact was actively encouraged by the examiner the one time I was lucky enough to renew my IR on an aircraft with a funcational autopilot! But it must be switched off for the approaches.

And, as of recently, it is also allowed on initial IR flights too. Although most schools' aircraft don't have autopilots, those schools with shiny new DA42s teach their students to use the autopilot on their IR. I believe that the requirement is for the student to hand-fly to top of climb, and to hand fly the approaches. For the rest of the flight the autopilot can be used, but the pilot is expected to keep a Plog to commercial airline standards.

FFF
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[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by hobbit1983

So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! )

I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?

For me there are two things to think about. 1 how comfortable are you on the gauges. On a 'nice' IMC day where all I need to do is fly, I am happy to do it without an autopilot. The problem is when ATC have a different plan than you do and all of a sudden your in the 'now where the h*!! is that waypoint? why are they sending me here? Does this still make sense?' situation and you are suddenly wishing for George to just hold it straight and level while you reprogramme the GPS and get a grip on the overall plan.

[Contacttower]

I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?

hobbit did you say you'd actually flown the 3 hour flight?

I don't think you're doing anything stupid, but it's interesting that our very experienced posters from across the pond are very reluctant to fly single engined IMC:

I do not fly single engine IFR period.

Do it in a single engine piston airplane...you're an idiot.

A lot of people do fly single engined IFR and in fact as someone said on the 'risk assessment' thread there is no statistical basis for thinking it is more dangerous than flying VFR.

[hobbit1983]

Within the last month I've flown 3 flights I would class as IMC flights. Bit of background first-

Got my IMCR in June of this year. Since then have managed to get in some practice approaches/holds etc about once a month, often with another IMCR/IR holder as safety pilot, with screens etc. These went well, so much so that I'd feel confident flying them in real-life (i.e. with a proper cloudbase) but NOT down to bare minimums - my personal minima at the moment would be 1000ft.

However I've not yet flown one "in anger" and I don't intend to just yet, unless I had to. On the flights I'm talking about I carried plates for the relevant approaches, but planned to fly a visual approach as permitted by conditions - the plates were in case I got caught out.

Since I got the rating, I've been trying to 'build up' the level of my IMC flights - first just doing 'on-top' stuff, with good conditions above and below the layer, then moving onto 'in the clag most of the time', and finally (not there yet) doing 'in the clag' & 'real-life approaches'.

The flights I were talking about within the last month have been the second type - good visual conditions at destination & departure, but in between there's enough cloud at height for me to fly in between layers or in cloud the entire way. As I said, I do carry plates & have practiced approaches with a safety pilot & screens just in case it does go tits-up.

On those flights, especially on the most recent, I would estimate I was in cloud about 75-60% of the time. I was handflying it, using DR, with VOR/DME position fixing as a backup (no GPS). This seems to work well - on the earlier flights this month, I was 'unsure' twice in total, but on the most recent, I was never unsure, and overall confident in my nav. It could be improved, but then I guess that's always true.

I always obtained a RIS where possible, and talked to the relevant authorites as much as practible. (This paid off; I got a transit straight through Luton's zone without asking for it!). I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

There seems to be two schools of thought responding to what I posted yesterday; but now there's a (lot) more detail, I would appreciate further comment.

[S-Works]

There is nothing wrong with single engine IFR, just the same as there is nothing wrong with single engine over water or at night. It is a personal risk assessment choice. Some are prepared to do it others are not, the aircraft does not know it is in cloud or night etc.

There is nothing big and clever about flying along in cloud when the conditions do not require it. You will that us IR pilots try to avoid cloud whenever possible, we plan to get on top and back under in the quickest manner possible. There is way to much macho thinking about flying in cloud. The reason I fly airways everywhere is that with the amount of flying I do the big sky shrinks and in the airways I have a RCS from start to finish.

I fly single pilot single engine IFR all over Europe and have my risk assessment criteria which I am happy with.

I have flown very long legs hand flying in IMC 3 or more hours on occasion and it is very very tiring. I would suggest that it is beyond the experience level of the average IMC pilot to fly by hand for this length of time.
I would also question exactly where the average IMC pilot would actually be flying to be able to stay in solid IMC for this length of time as the rating is illegal to use outside of the UK and the there are few places that you can fly between in the UK to be in IMC for three hours. Doing so would indicate a very poor example of pre-fight planning.

An autopilot in busy airspace is a must to have for a serious IFR pilot. Flying around the LTMA under London Control, getting ATIS, preparing plates and approach briefs is not the place to be wandering off heading/height while you are distracted even for a few seconds. You want to play with the big boys you play by there rules and they do not hand fly.

[S-Works]

I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

[hobbit1983]

Quote:
I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

DR, with VOR/DME position fixing & tracking. In my defence, yes I do - on the basis that one of the club instructors checked my routeplan etc before I went & quizzed me. He seemed okay with it - in fact it was a certain renowed OSFC instructor who suggested I take more challenging routes (rather than go round airspace altogether).

Thanks for your response bose-x - forgive me if the above sounds flippant. I was happy to proceed on the basis of the advice of the club instructors (after all, it's their a/c & their signature on the sign-out sheet). As you say, it's a personal risk assesment - I was aiming to expand my comfort zone by just the right amount, enough to challenge me, but not to put myself into danger.

[Contacttower]

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

Bose are you saying what hobbit is doing is dangerous? Reading his post I think he has a very sensible attitude to building his experience...although personally I wouldn't use DR in IMC I'd just fly beacon to beacon but maybe I'm just lazy.

[hobbit1983]

CT - when navigating around Heathrow/Luton/Stanstead I did beacon track to an extent, but only to assess my DR & to make sure I didn't infringe

[Contacttower]

An autopilot in busy airspace is a must to have for a serious IFR pilot. Flying around the LTMA under London Control, getting ATIS, preparing plates and approach briefs is not the place to be wandering off heading/height while you are distracted even for a few seconds. You want to play with the big boys you play by there rules and they do not hand fly.

I flew into Gatwick without an autopilot...although the approach and nav was very straightforward.

[S-Works]

I flew into Gatwick without an autopilot...although the approach and nav was very straightforward.

You flew in VFR. Try going in from the airways, getting ATIS, preparing plates etc.

I am saying that learning the IFR 'trade' in a badly equipped aircraft in busy airspace is not the brightest of moves. Dead reckoning or using unapproved equipment is not very sensible.

IFR is a highly skilled game requiring proper planning and use of all of the tools possible to ensure it is carried out safely.

The average club hack with a single VOR that is not FM immune etc is not an appropriate platform. Not to mention the fact that VOR reliability low down patchy at best. So relying on it in IMC is daft, just imagine bowling along through Luton or Stanstead and the VOR loses lock. What happens? You have to declare an emergency, get a controller to divert resources to sort you out.

[Contacttower]

You flew in VFR. Try going in from the airways, getting ATIS, preparing plates etc.

True...but once inside the zone I was climbed above cloud and put on the ILS.

Certainly G-DOME that resides at Old Sarum has quite a good nav/com fit. OK it doesn't have autopilot or IFR GPS but with dual radios, dual VOR, Loc/Glide, ADF, DME all nicely laid out it's fine for flying 'beginner to intermediate' IMC.

I'm hoping to do the IR next year...perhaps when that's finished I'll come back and think about this again.

[hobbit1983]

I am saying that learning the IFR 'trade' in a badly equipped aircraft in busy airspace is not the brightest of moves. Dead reckoning or using unapproved equipment is not very sensible.
IFR is a highly skilled game requiring proper planning and use of all of the tools possible to ensure it is carried out safely.

Bose; I hear what you're saying, but the instructors at my club were quite happy for me to fly the flight given the equipment I had. Are you saying they were not sensible too?

The average club hack with a single VOR that is not FM immune etc is not an appropriate platform. Not to mention the fact that VOR reliability low down patchy at best. So relying on it in IMC is daft, just imagine bowling along through Luton or Stanstead and the VOR loses lock. What happens? You have to declare an emergency, get a controller to divert resources to sort you out.

If that had happened to me, during the 'busy airspace' phase, I could have descended to safely below cloud & continued visually. I checked the forecast cloudbase before I left; If I really cocked up my IFR nav I wanted to make sure I didn't blunder into somewhere I shouldn't. Having said that, I experienced no problems with it the VORS (both of them) & I wasn't relying on them soley.

Are you saying that if two different VORs or recievers packed up in flight I should declare a pan call?

[IO540]

So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! )

It's OK but if you really did spend 3hrs in IMC you will end up really knackered for the time you don't want to be - the landing. This would be true for the most seasoned professional pilot, too. Personally I wouldn't do it.

Mind you, not many spamcans can stay up for 3hrs with a meaningful reserve...

On a more general note, there is obvious confusion here (from comments about FM Immunity etc) between "UK style IFR" (which is basically flying around in Class G, often without any meaningful ATC service, popping in and out of cloud as necessary, and without any enroute clearance) and IFR/airways flight (which is cleared enroute, under ATC direction i.e. Radar Control Service the whole way, on Eurocontrol routings whose MEAs would usually place you into freezing levels so the strategy is to head for VMC on top ASAP).

I don't think this "3hrs IMC" poster is doing the latter! In Europe, if you spend 3hrs in the airways in IMC (say FL120) you will likely end up carrying more ice than the father xmas sleigh in Spitzbergen.

He's clearly talking about doing this in UK Class G, and as I said it's OK but it's going to be helluva hard work. Also, in the winter, the flight is likely to be below 0C temperature so if really in IMC icing will be an issue, and flying at the low levels which one tends to in the UK (say 2000-3000ft, remaining below CAS) one has limited options for a descent into warmer air.

For me, a duff autopilot is a no-go item for IFR/airways. The workload is normally low, and I have had AP failures where I had to fly manually, but on occassions the workload can shoot up and then you need all the help you can get. I once had an AP failure on the way to Greece and had to fly by hand there and all the way back, but that was at high level (FL100+) and mostly VMC. But then I have a well equipped very stable plane.

Re nav, a decent GPS is a must, backed up by VOR/DME. But I wouldn't want to trust the crap avionics in the average crap rental spamcan which is what I used to fly in. I've had VORs which idented and indicated OK but were way off, and DMEs which idented, showed a reasonable figure but it was miles off. IMC training is done mostly in VMC (under the hood) so the stuff doesn't have to actually work. This is a generalisation but is something to watch.

[S-Works]

True...but once inside the zone I was climbed above cloud and put on the ILS

.

illegally as I recall......

But still my point, the controllers were doing the work for you quite probably because you were a novelty and they were paying extra attention to making sure you did not knock an airbus out of the sky.

When I fly into Gatwick I come off the airways with a STAR and then vectors, I have to find the plates for the arrival which is usually given to me by London control, I have to set up the Garmin for the arrival and the approach, write down the ATIS. Read the plates to make sure I know my platform heights and Missed Approach procedure, ensure I have the multitude of frequencies tuned in for approach tower ground etc.

That is not workload you want to be doing while hand flying trust me. I can do it, I have demonstrated to the CAA to a standard to pass and IR and to an examiner each year onwards but not something I want to do on regular trips.

[S-Works]

If that had happened to me, during the 'busy airspace' phase, I could have descended to safely below cloud & continued visually. I checked the forecast cloudbase before I left; If I really cocked up my IFR nav I wanted to make sure I didn't blunder into somewhere I shouldn't. Having said that, I experienced no problems with it the VORS (both of them) & I wasn't relying on them sole

y.

Then why do the flight in the first place if you could do it visually?

VORS can and will pack up at a moments notice. And let me make this perfectly clear there is NO PLACE in IFR navigation for dead reckoning. That is just a disaster waiting to happen.

[hobbit1983]

He's clearly talking about doing this in UK Class G, and as I said it's OK but it's going to be helluva hard work.

Most certainly yes - nowhere near the airways phase (yet)!

But still my point, the controllers were doing the work for you quite probably because you were a novelty and they were paying extra attention to making sure you did not knock an airbus out of the sky.

How so? I was in Class G, with a RIS, doing my own thing. I didn't even ask for a Luton Zone transit; they offered me a quick shortcut through, which I accepted.

When I fly into Gatwick I come off the airways with a STAR and then vectors, I have to find the plates for the arrival which is usually given to me by London control, I have to set up the Garmin for the arrival and the approach, write down the ATIS. Read the plates to make sure I know my platform heights and Missed Approach procedure, ensure I have the multitude of frequencies tuned in for approach tower ground etc.

If I was doing that kind of IFR flying I certainly accept that I'd probably not cope. Hence not doing it yet & building my experience!

That is not workload you want to be doing while hand flying trust me.

I wholeheartedly agree; presumably that will come later during my IR - but for now, given what I'm doing - "UK style IFR" in class G, it sounds as though an autopilot is not a necessity.

[hobbit1983]

Then why do the flight in the first place if you could do it visually?

Because, in the words of an instructor, I need to stretch myself & get useful hourbuilding in. I could have done the visual flight, but I don't feel I would have gotten as much out of it compared to the way I did it.

VORS can and will pack up at a moments notice. And let me make this perfectly clear there is NO PLACE in IFR navigation for dead reckoning. That is just a disaster waiting to happen.

I accept that you're far better placed/qualified/experienced to judge that than me - but if that's the case, if you're relying on VORs over DR, how come a GPS backup isn't mandatory for IFR flight? (If it actually is, I apologise!)

[Contacttower]

illegally as I recall......

To quote Chili Monster from the PM he sent me afterwards:

760 channel radios are a legal requirement for IFR inside CAS (Schedule 5, ANO).

Yes the radio issue was a slight oversight on my part, and yes I know...you can't really be SVFR in the LTMA.

[IO540]

for now, given what I'm doing - "UK style IFR" in class G, it sounds as though an autopilot is not a necessity

If you considerably modify the "3hrs" bit then I agree

You still want a really good GPS, moving map obviously, to keep the workload down.

The way to fly around the UK is to plan every flight as IFR, fly it as IFR navigationally, and if you end up in VMC then that's a bonus. This is routinely done on the IMC Rating, and this is what I was doing when I got the IMCR, and what I still do with the IR - I don't bother to fly airways for short (say 150nm) hops around the UK. A lot of the time one ends up in VMC but if the flight was planned as IFR from the start, one avoids the "I must remain below the cloud" scud running mentality which really is dangerous.

BTW flying into some place like Gatwick is nothing special. Well, the landing fee is very special, so special you want to make a copy of the logbook entry and frame it. At some airports (not Gatwick) the place is so big you need to do fuel planning for the taxi to the GA apron