Use Of AutoPilot in IMC
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Use Of AutoPilot in IMC
Interested in folk's thoughts :
I understand that the CAA allow single-crew revenue earning flights as long as there is a functional auto-pilot (ie smaller airlines like Aurigny flying Tri-landers in the Channel).
If the CAA feel that there is a higher margin of safety for a commercial pilot to have the option of using an autopilot when in IMC is is appropriate for PPL pilots with IMC or IR ratings to undertake lengthy flight in IMC in an airplane without a autopilot ?
When I did my IMC it was in a plane without an autopilot, and while handflying is a skill to be practiced and kept current in the event that the autopilot is U/S, I wonder, when thinking about reducing flying risks (apropros the current interesting thread) whether folks are happy to undertake prolonged single pilot IMC flying without an autopilot or would never consider it?
Having said that some people place too much reliance on their autopilot making up for poor decision making and instrument flying practice. We have a chap (with his own aircraft) at our airfield who flies with an apparent disregard for the weather (attempting instrument approaches with the cloudbase below minima when the heavies aren't flying for example) and has had enough close shaves that a number of people won't fly with him, and yes a number of pilots including instructors have repeatedly reminded of the risks he is taking.
LateFinals
I understand that the CAA allow single-crew revenue earning flights as long as there is a functional auto-pilot (ie smaller airlines like Aurigny flying Tri-landers in the Channel).
If the CAA feel that there is a higher margin of safety for a commercial pilot to have the option of using an autopilot when in IMC is is appropriate for PPL pilots with IMC or IR ratings to undertake lengthy flight in IMC in an airplane without a autopilot ?
When I did my IMC it was in a plane without an autopilot, and while handflying is a skill to be practiced and kept current in the event that the autopilot is U/S, I wonder, when thinking about reducing flying risks (apropros the current interesting thread) whether folks are happy to undertake prolonged single pilot IMC flying without an autopilot or would never consider it?
Having said that some people place too much reliance on their autopilot making up for poor decision making and instrument flying practice. We have a chap (with his own aircraft) at our airfield who flies with an apparent disregard for the weather (attempting instrument approaches with the cloudbase below minima when the heavies aren't flying for example) and has had enough close shaves that a number of people won't fly with him, and yes a number of pilots including instructors have repeatedly reminded of the risks he is taking.
LateFinals
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I seem to remember Fuji posted a thread which essentially asked what equipment people would need to fly single engined in IMC. Some wanted IFR GPS, others wanted deice and all sorts of other things but almost everyone wanted autopilot.
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FWIW, my view is that extended single pilot IMC without a functioning autopilot is too much like hard work and reduces my perceived safety margin by enough to be a no go item. This is particularly true if on a route where I am likely to have a lot of re-planning or am going to be approaching at night or in low weather (just don't want to be tired in these situations).
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I've never used an autopilot but I have flown in some pretty bumpy clouds before (just a little bit of tactical IMC here and there) and I was wondering, how much turbulence can a light aircraft's autopilot actually deal with?
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It's in the POH. Mine is 1.3g. Most modern AP deal pretty well with turbulence, anything that I sit and think oooh this is bumpy in I will disengage and hand fly.
The key thing here is that the AP is really good as an enroute tool and when in the airways mine is on all the time. But it has to be remembered that most of the time the reason I am in the airway is to get clear of cloud.
For the IMC pilot relying on an AP as crutch it opens a whole can of worms for discussion.
The key thing here is that the AP is really good as an enroute tool and when in the airways mine is on all the time. But it has to be remembered that most of the time the reason I am in the airway is to get clear of cloud.
For the IMC pilot relying on an AP as crutch it opens a whole can of worms for discussion.
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An AP is more or less essential for IFR.
One can fly by hand in IMC but the pilot workload is much higher, which reduces safety. In nearly all accidents involving loss of situational awareness, the pilot would not have made the mistake if he had more time to think. The airlines realised decades ago that reducing pilot workload is the key to safety but somehow GA likes to live on in its little rut, to prove it can grow hairs on its chest.
IR checkrides are done without the autopilot to push the pilot to the limit of his ability but one would never fly like that by choice.
Real flying from A to B is done on autopilot the whole time. There is ample opportunity to practice one's manual IMC skills by going up and drilling horizontal holes in some cloud in Class G - not in the airways when under radar control and ATC expect you to fly dead accurately.
Re turbulence, it depends on the AP. Some are good, some not so good. In very bad turbulence I prefer to hand fly because the objective is to keep wings level and maintain constant pitch, not maintain altitude. But very little IFR flight is in IMC.
One can fly by hand in IMC but the pilot workload is much higher, which reduces safety. In nearly all accidents involving loss of situational awareness, the pilot would not have made the mistake if he had more time to think. The airlines realised decades ago that reducing pilot workload is the key to safety but somehow GA likes to live on in its little rut, to prove it can grow hairs on its chest.
IR checkrides are done without the autopilot to push the pilot to the limit of his ability but one would never fly like that by choice.
Real flying from A to B is done on autopilot the whole time. There is ample opportunity to practice one's manual IMC skills by going up and drilling horizontal holes in some cloud in Class G - not in the airways when under radar control and ATC expect you to fly dead accurately.
Re turbulence, it depends on the AP. Some are good, some not so good. In very bad turbulence I prefer to hand fly because the objective is to keep wings level and maintain constant pitch, not maintain altitude. But very little IFR flight is in IMC.
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hand flying skills?
IO-540 makes some good points, I would not like to do more than 2 hours of "hard" IMC flight without an autopilot, Paris -Madrid without an autopilot in an F-27 was an epic and there was two of us to do the flying!
But hand flying skills are something that are fast disappering in the airlines with young First Officers now unable or unwilling to fly visual approches or hand fly an ILS.
It is all a question of balance Autopilots have there place and they reduce the workload however hand flying is a perishable skill that is easily lost without practice, the bottom line is if you can't hand fly the aircraft in the airspace that you are in you should not be doing so however using the autopilot frees up so much brain capacity it is wise to use it when the workload is high.
I regularly hand fly the aircraft in IFR when the workload allows but five in afternoon at Paris GDG or Detroit Metro is not the place to do it!
But hand flying skills are something that are fast disappering in the airlines with young First Officers now unable or unwilling to fly visual approches or hand fly an ILS.
It is all a question of balance Autopilots have there place and they reduce the workload however hand flying is a perishable skill that is easily lost without practice, the bottom line is if you can't hand fly the aircraft in the airspace that you are in you should not be doing so however using the autopilot frees up so much brain capacity it is wise to use it when the workload is high.
I regularly hand fly the aircraft in IFR when the workload allows but five in afternoon at Paris GDG or Detroit Metro is not the place to do it!
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But hand flying skills are something that are fast disappering in the airlines with young First Officers now unable or unwilling to fly visual approches or hand fly an ILS.
The IR test is done fully hand flown so everyone proves the skills originally and I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to loose hand flying skills.
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Because most wannabees do the IR as a required test on the road to the RHS, the next time they renew is because they have a job and a current Ir is required for them to do the type rating. After that they only renew a multicrew IR. Most of them struggle to work out which way is up in IMC without an AP.
The old hands who came through the ranks doing it the hard way have no fear of hand flying anything from a Cessna to a 747.
The old hands who came through the ranks doing it the hard way have no fear of hand flying anything from a Cessna to a 747.
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I have seen plenty of crusty old captains who struggled with hand flying an ILS as well.
Lack of currency is not something only young first officers suffer from in an environment where the use of the A/P is actively promoted.
Lack of currency is not something only young first officers suffer from in an environment where the use of the A/P is actively promoted.
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Does the multi crew IR allow the use of the autopilot then?
...that fills me with so much confidence as a passenger.
Most of them struggle to work out which way is up in IMC without an AP.
...that fills me with so much confidence as a passenger.
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I think there is little risk of GA IFR pilots losing their hand flying skills.
If every airfield had an ILS then it might be a problem
The airliner world, from what I know of it, is different. I am sure the vast majority of flights within Europe (not Greece etc) can be flown fully automatic, down to ~ 100ft and actually most of the ones to major airports can be done with autoland.
GA is very different.
I strongly recommend using the AP for all real flight, and then practicing hand flying in IMC when nobody is watching you. A properly planned IFR GA flight will most likely spend so little time in IMC it won't be worth logging the instrument time.
If every airfield had an ILS then it might be a problem
The airliner world, from what I know of it, is different. I am sure the vast majority of flights within Europe (not Greece etc) can be flown fully automatic, down to ~ 100ft and actually most of the ones to major airports can be done with autoland.
GA is very different.
I strongly recommend using the AP for all real flight, and then practicing hand flying in IMC when nobody is watching you. A properly planned IFR GA flight will most likely spend so little time in IMC it won't be worth logging the instrument time.
Professional Student
Q for IO540, CT, et al...
So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! 
)
I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?
)I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?
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Single pilot IFR in instrument conditions is among the highest workload and most demanding flying you can do. I've flown formation beneath powerlines and run airplanes into burning canyons...and still maintain that single pilot IMC is about as a high a workload, and in my opinion about as hazardous a flying as you an do. Do it single pilot without autopilot, and your workload goes up even more.
Do it in a single engine piston airplane...you're an idiot.
That's my position as a GA pilot and instructor.
Do it in a single engine piston airplane...you're an idiot.
That's my position as a GA pilot and instructor.
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Flying under the instrument flight rules is like any other flying activity the more you do it the easier it gets.
What we need to do is look at it as two separate issues though.
Flying the airplane with reference to the flight instruments is easier than flying looking outside because there is less to have to look at and with only the flight instruments you fly far more accurately.
Personally I feel more comfortable flying the panel than flying by outside visual reference.
However flying on instruments and under the IFR rules in high density air space is another matter and the work load goes up, way up. that is why an auto pilot is a must have aid if you are flying single pilot under the instrument flight rules.
By the way I personally quit flying single pilot IFR many decades ago and am a firm believer in the two crew concept and at least two engines.
I do not fly single engine IFR period.
What we need to do is look at it as two separate issues though.
Flying the airplane with reference to the flight instruments is easier than flying looking outside because there is less to have to look at and with only the flight instruments you fly far more accurately.
Personally I feel more comfortable flying the panel than flying by outside visual reference.
However flying on instruments and under the IFR rules in high density air space is another matter and the work load goes up, way up. that is why an auto pilot is a must have aid if you are flying single pilot under the instrument flight rules.
By the way I personally quit flying single pilot IFR many decades ago and am a firm believer in the two crew concept and at least two engines.
I do not fly single engine IFR period.
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3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC?
I have done more than that under the hood but that was with my instructor doing the nav and radio. In real life I'd say 2.25hrs is too much.
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Bose I have to disagree with your generalisation ref airline flying and loss of skills by continual use of AP. I would love to put you through an Airline sim check or a 4 hour sim session and see how you cope!
Just for your information, we can and have on occasion departed with the auto pilot and the flight director inop and managed to keep the aircraft the right way up
Our last sim recurrent was a dual generator failure, the flight continues to the nearest suitable on batterys, no autopilot no flight director, all our crews get this scenario and all cope without flying upside down, your comments are based on a lack of knowledge and I find them offensive.
Contacttower you have nothing to fear, all the guys and gals I fly with regularly practice their hand flying skills when conditions allow, even the lower hours FOs.
Just for your information, we can and have on occasion departed with the auto pilot and the flight director inop and managed to keep the aircraft the right way up
Our last sim recurrent was a dual generator failure, the flight continues to the nearest suitable on batterys, no autopilot no flight director, all our crews get this scenario and all cope without flying upside down, your comments are based on a lack of knowledge and I find them offensive.Contacttower you have nothing to fear, all the guys and gals I fly with regularly practice their hand flying skills when conditions allow, even the lower hours FOs.
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FF I'm curious about this...I read in Pilot a piece by Bob Grimstead, I think it was the 'Can a PPL land a jumbo' one in which he said that at 35,000ft the aircraft is so unstable because of the thin air that it is very difficult to keep straight and level...this may be an exaggeration but if left me with the impression that crews are slightly 'at the mercy of' the plane high up. Having said that though I believe the Quantas 707 was flown all the way from Southend to Australia without an autopilot.
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Contacttower I can't answer that I'm afraid; I'm currently operating the Dash 8 so Bob would be the one to ask, or have a look through Handling the Big Jets, a very informative read.
In normal operations we fly at 20000 or less and have no problems with aircraft controllability, although I understand at high altitudes passenger jets suffer from a lack of damping due the thin air.
Our Minimum Equipment List allows us to depart no Autopilot and no Flight Director, the MEL is set by the manufacturer. I have no idea what the dispatch requirements would be for a Boeing or Airbus type, but bottom line the crew have to be able to cope with a failure of the Autopilot or/and the Flight Director.
In normal operations we fly at 20000 or less and have no problems with aircraft controllability, although I understand at high altitudes passenger jets suffer from a lack of damping due the thin air.
Our Minimum Equipment List allows us to depart no Autopilot and no Flight Director, the MEL is set by the manufacturer. I have no idea what the dispatch requirements would be for a Boeing or Airbus type, but bottom line the crew have to be able to cope with a failure of the Autopilot or/and the Flight Director.
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or have a look through Handling the Big Jets, a very informative read.