What is a C172 capable of?
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From: USA
In the UK and english speaking world generally, a Stall Turn is a vertical climb continued until flying speed no longer can be maintained, full rudder is applied to swing the aircraft about its "Z" axis to then face vertically downwards. A Hammerhead involves going backwards, erect or inverted (positive or negative).
Wilipedia:
1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging...tallturns1.htm
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging...tallturns2.htm
Incidentally, so far as origins of aerobatics, the first aerobatic display was at Rheims, France in 1909. Not until 1913 did Adolphe Pegoud begin displaying and performing aerobatics on behalf of Louis Bleriot. Lincoln Beachey began flying aerobatics as an exhibition pilot in the United States in 1911.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Here's another one who does the "Cessna Lift" before turning as I too want to carry on enjoying my aviating! I flown the Cessna 172 (145hp and 160hp) The older 145hp model had better visibility as the glareshield was (seemed)lower but they were both better than the PA-28.The one I flew (Warrior) had a real "junior airline pilot" instrument panel and glareshield. I'm 6' but felt my visibility severly limited by the panel. Yes, the seat was raised! This in turn reduced my view out of the upper side windows.
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From: Looking for the signals square at LHR
SN3Guppy,
This apparent confusion may be my fault. By "the english speaking world" I had intended to convey the "British Commonwealth" and should have said so. This would have excluded American terminology and thus avoided misunderstanding - sorry.
An English Hammerhead DOES involve a "stall" (just accept the term for the moment) and DOES include a Tailslide. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the English Stall Turn is analogous to the American Hammerhead and the American Tailslide translates as the English Hammerhead but the terms are not interchangeable. That's why it is important to determine that a common language is being spoken.
The links you provided will be helpful to others; they contain much information which I excluded since I was not writing a primer on the subject. For myself, I think I may just be getting a handle on these aero things - I have been at it only since 1949.
GQ.
This apparent confusion may be my fault. By "the english speaking world" I had intended to convey the "British Commonwealth" and should have said so. This would have excluded American terminology and thus avoided misunderstanding - sorry.
An English Hammerhead DOES involve a "stall" (just accept the term for the moment) and DOES include a Tailslide. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the English Stall Turn is analogous to the American Hammerhead and the American Tailslide translates as the English Hammerhead but the terms are not interchangeable. That's why it is important to determine that a common language is being spoken.
The links you provided will be helpful to others; they contain much information which I excluded since I was not writing a primer on the subject. For myself, I think I may just be getting a handle on these aero things - I have been at it only since 1949.
GQ.
Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 11th November 2007 at 15:05.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: england
I have never heard anyone in British aerobatics use the term 'hammerhead' as an alternative to 'tailslide'. If it was the term used at one time it has long since ceased to be in regular use. Most people hearing the word would assume that a stall turn was meant but the individual had used U.S. terminology.
However I have often heard people refer to the 'hammerhead canopy up (down) out of the tailslide' as a reference to the exit portion of the figure.
However I have often heard people refer to the 'hammerhead canopy up (down) out of the tailslide' as a reference to the exit portion of the figure.
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From: North America
I don't know if a 'stall turn' is the same as a 'climbing turn stall' but I've done all of my training on 172s and I've seen it do loops, spins, spirals, canyon turns, etc.
In about 4 weeks the flight school I attend in Pitt Meadows, B.C., Canada will have the first flight school owned diesel engine 172M in Canada giving it a service ceiling of 18,000 ft. Aircraft Ident is C-GAME.
This picture is the first diesel installed on a 172, it's a 172p. Turbocharged, FADEC, composite 3-bladed prop, push start, runup is: push a button for 30 seconds, watch the gauges, and listen to it feather and switch computer systems..
In about 4 weeks the flight school I attend in Pitt Meadows, B.C., Canada will have the first flight school owned diesel engine 172M in Canada giving it a service ceiling of 18,000 ft. Aircraft Ident is C-GAME.
This picture is the first diesel installed on a 172, it's a 172p. Turbocharged, FADEC, composite 3-bladed prop, push start, runup is: push a button for 30 seconds, watch the gauges, and listen to it feather and switch computer systems..
Last edited by MidgetBoy; 11th November 2007 at 20:10.
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
C-GAME
Yep, the Thielert 1.7 (or is it a 2.0) Centurion, now available in 172s as well. My club looked into retrofitting them to the PA-28-161 but decided against that for now. Given the weight of a PA-28-161 (and the 172 is roughly comparable with the PA28-161) the take-off distance would be unacceptable for anything but the largest GA-friendly runways. So watch those numbers like a hawk!
Mind you, once it's flying it will indeed go to 18.000 feet, and the fuel costs are about 1/4 to 1/5th of comparable AVGAS types.
Oh, and your engineers might benefit from a chat over dinner with engineers with DA-40/42 TDI (or Robin Ecoflyer) experience, so they know what to look for at 700 hours (cracked cylinder heads) and all the other teething problems that this engine seems to have.
Mind you, once it's flying it will indeed go to 18.000 feet, and the fuel costs are about 1/4 to 1/5th of comparable AVGAS types.
Oh, and your engineers might benefit from a chat over dinner with engineers with DA-40/42 TDI (or Robin Ecoflyer) experience, so they know what to look for at 700 hours (cracked cylinder heads) and all the other teething problems that this engine seems to have.
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From: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
Yep, the Thielert 1.7
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Ontario, Canada
My, my,
How times have changed! It seems like such a short time ago that I was comletely trashed for simply confirming that yes, a 172 could be safely rolled, by an appropriately skilled pilot. As I recall, other members expressed an intent to leave PPRuNe completly over the issue (I just ignored PPRuNe for a while).
Now I read protracted posts about hammerhead turns or stalls in C172's. What a bad idea! Cessna might find tolerance of the concept that their prized design could be flown gently through a positive G inverted manuever, but I'm certain they did not intend that it be flown backward relative to the airflow. I suppose that should be a limitation in the flight manual!
Would PPRuNe please consider splitting the Private Flying forum into "Ab Initio Flying", Private Flying for Business and Pleasure", and "Aerobatics and Competion Flying".
With this arrangement, at least the correct aircraft types could be discussed in association with the appropriate type of operation.
Pilot DAR
How times have changed! It seems like such a short time ago that I was comletely trashed for simply confirming that yes, a 172 could be safely rolled, by an appropriately skilled pilot. As I recall, other members expressed an intent to leave PPRuNe completly over the issue (I just ignored PPRuNe for a while).
Now I read protracted posts about hammerhead turns or stalls in C172's. What a bad idea! Cessna might find tolerance of the concept that their prized design could be flown gently through a positive G inverted manuever, but I'm certain they did not intend that it be flown backward relative to the airflow. I suppose that should be a limitation in the flight manual!
Would PPRuNe please consider splitting the Private Flying forum into "Ab Initio Flying", Private Flying for Business and Pleasure", and "Aerobatics and Competion Flying".
With this arrangement, at least the correct aircraft types could be discussed in association with the appropriate type of operation.
Pilot DAR
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 683
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From: UK
Oh, Lord, Pilot DAR. 
You were quite rightly "trashed" for your assertion, and if you read the whole of this thread, rather than taking one or two posts in isolation, you'll see that the message here is the same simple one as it was for you:
(1) It's not in the POH
(2) It's very dangerous - for the pilots who fly after you as well as the "aeros ace" him/herself, and so:
(3) Don't aerobat a C172.
You were quite rightly "trashed" for your assertion, and if you read the whole of this thread, rather than taking one or two posts in isolation, you'll see that the message here is the same simple one as it was for you: (1) It's not in the POH
(2) It's very dangerous - for the pilots who fly after you as well as the "aeros ace" him/herself, and so:
(3) Don't aerobat a C172.
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From: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Tigerbatics,
"I have never heard anyone in British aerobatics use the term 'hammerhead' as an alternative to 'tailslide'. If it was the term used at one time it has long since ceased to be in regular use. Most people hearing the word would assume that a stall turn was meant but the individual had used U.S. terminology."
I was about to suggest that the term was in current use until very recently as I remember discussing the subject with a well-known display pilot whilst flying G-ACDC from Redhill (although we had no thought of going backwards in such a venerable aircraft - Dev Deverill would have killed us even if the a/c didn't!) but I have just realised that this was more than twenty five years ago so it wasn't so recent . . . Time has a strange way of being compressed as one advances in age.
Also, on a wall in the Tiger Club hangar, there was a chart of the Aresti symbols which included what you understand as a Tailslide but then was described as a Hammerhead - positive and negative. BLAC literature of the period made similar references. And I remember much the same thing in the CFI's office but this was in Cyril Nepean Bishop's time, pre-Aresti whose method was adopted some time in the early sixties, if I remember correctly.
With the assistance of the governments of the day, the British light aircraft industry quietly left the field to the American manufacturers and it would be consistent for the domestic terminology to follow a similar path; it seems that it has.
GQ.
"I have never heard anyone in British aerobatics use the term 'hammerhead' as an alternative to 'tailslide'. If it was the term used at one time it has long since ceased to be in regular use. Most people hearing the word would assume that a stall turn was meant but the individual had used U.S. terminology."
I was about to suggest that the term was in current use until very recently as I remember discussing the subject with a well-known display pilot whilst flying G-ACDC from Redhill (although we had no thought of going backwards in such a venerable aircraft - Dev Deverill would have killed us even if the a/c didn't!) but I have just realised that this was more than twenty five years ago so it wasn't so recent . . . Time has a strange way of being compressed as one advances in age.
Also, on a wall in the Tiger Club hangar, there was a chart of the Aresti symbols which included what you understand as a Tailslide but then was described as a Hammerhead - positive and negative. BLAC literature of the period made similar references. And I remember much the same thing in the CFI's office but this was in Cyril Nepean Bishop's time, pre-Aresti whose method was adopted some time in the early sixties, if I remember correctly.
With the assistance of the governments of the day, the British light aircraft industry quietly left the field to the American manufacturers and it would be consistent for the domestic terminology to follow a similar path; it seems that it has.
GQ.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: england
Gipsey Queen:
You are right about the passage of time.
I joined the Tiger Club in 1978 and flew several times a week for many years until the Club left Redhill. I seldom missed a BAeA contest during that time either in the Club Stampe, (TKC was my particular preference), or later in my Pitts. I was an aerobatic check pilot at the club from the early 80's. Seems like yesterday!
I never met Nepean Bishop, known as 'Bish' I believe, but did fly the SuperTiger OAA 'The Deacon' in the series inspired by his name a few times. Lovely machine and the nearest a Tiger Moth ever came to being a proper aeroplane. I agree, Dev would have had a fit at the thought of a tailslide in CDC.
I do not recall any aerobatic chart in the hangar but I do not doubt that what you say about terminology is correct.
My point was only that the term has dropped into disuse and has suffered this fate for very many years.
What seems to have happened to aerobatic terminology in more recent times is that the language used by the FAI and in the Aresti Catalogue has become the norm. So it is 'flick roll' rather than 'snap roll'; 'stall turn' rather than 'hammerhead' and 'tailslide' for what we once seem to have called a 'hammerhead'.
However no aerobatic pilot is consistent in his use of terminology, any more than in his flying, and the only thing that is very, very seldom heard over here is the use of 'Immelmann' instead of 'roll off the top'.
You are right about the passage of time.
I joined the Tiger Club in 1978 and flew several times a week for many years until the Club left Redhill. I seldom missed a BAeA contest during that time either in the Club Stampe, (TKC was my particular preference), or later in my Pitts. I was an aerobatic check pilot at the club from the early 80's. Seems like yesterday!
I never met Nepean Bishop, known as 'Bish' I believe, but did fly the SuperTiger OAA 'The Deacon' in the series inspired by his name a few times. Lovely machine and the nearest a Tiger Moth ever came to being a proper aeroplane. I agree, Dev would have had a fit at the thought of a tailslide in CDC.
I do not recall any aerobatic chart in the hangar but I do not doubt that what you say about terminology is correct.
My point was only that the term has dropped into disuse and has suffered this fate for very many years.
What seems to have happened to aerobatic terminology in more recent times is that the language used by the FAI and in the Aresti Catalogue has become the norm. So it is 'flick roll' rather than 'snap roll'; 'stall turn' rather than 'hammerhead' and 'tailslide' for what we once seem to have called a 'hammerhead'.
However no aerobatic pilot is consistent in his use of terminology, any more than in his flying, and the only thing that is very, very seldom heard over here is the use of 'Immelmann' instead of 'roll off the top'.
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From: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Tigerbatics,
The DH82A was never a favourite of mine and, compared with the SV4, a bit of a dog but saying so will no doubt generate squeals of protest from the predictable quarters! However, it did teach me to fly and was a good ab initio trainer. Agree absolutely, Rollason's mods made a huge difference. I remember The Deacon well enough although I don't remember flying it. However, I do have an hour or three in The Archbishop (NZZ) which was like chalk and cheese with the standard aircraft- but it still wouldn't roll! Never quite got the hang of all the complication of changing to the inverted system and back - I was always nervous of the thing quitting in the middle of the procedure. A metal prop might have helped here.
More fun was the Arrow Active but it was an aircraft in which I never felt really comfortable. It certainly had a vicious temper. All very different from the well-mannered S2S; 260hp, fuel injection and c/s prop - yes, times certainly change. We thought we had hit gold with the 190hp in the Zlin! But that used to cough when you were half way round as the other carburettor chimed in. I think it's called "character" . . .and speaking of which, "Bish" was a wonderful person and a brilliant pilot; I feel privileged to have learned from him. And privileged to have lived through the last of the Golden Age.
Ahhhhh - nostalgia ain't wot it used to be.
GQ.
The DH82A was never a favourite of mine and, compared with the SV4, a bit of a dog but saying so will no doubt generate squeals of protest from the predictable quarters! However, it did teach me to fly and was a good ab initio trainer. Agree absolutely, Rollason's mods made a huge difference. I remember The Deacon well enough although I don't remember flying it. However, I do have an hour or three in The Archbishop (NZZ) which was like chalk and cheese with the standard aircraft- but it still wouldn't roll! Never quite got the hang of all the complication of changing to the inverted system and back - I was always nervous of the thing quitting in the middle of the procedure. A metal prop might have helped here.
More fun was the Arrow Active but it was an aircraft in which I never felt really comfortable. It certainly had a vicious temper. All very different from the well-mannered S2S; 260hp, fuel injection and c/s prop - yes, times certainly change. We thought we had hit gold with the 190hp in the Zlin! But that used to cough when you were half way round as the other carburettor chimed in. I think it's called "character" . . .and speaking of which, "Bish" was a wonderful person and a brilliant pilot; I feel privileged to have learned from him. And privileged to have lived through the last of the Golden Age.
Ahhhhh - nostalgia ain't wot it used to be.
GQ.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
This apparent confusion may be my fault. By "the english speaking world" I had intended to convey the "British Commonwealth" and should have said so. This would have excluded American terminology and thus avoided misunderstanding - sorry.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
No idea what you are talking about old chap.
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: England
More speak english outside the UK than in.
It really is quite preposterous to consider the Colonies as true speakers of the mother tongue.......
run away, run away......
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
I don't know if it's actually true, but I was told that the native language used by the majority in the USA is now Spanish. That could be urban myth of course!
It really is quite preposterous to consider the Colonies as true speakers of the mother tongue.......
Do I sense a touch of post-colonial antagonism towards our green and pleasant land from SNS3Guppy?
If it helps, my immediate family is English, with my extended family Irish and Welsh.
