Pan pan after engine failue ?
Pompey till I die
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Pan pan after engine failue ?
If you suffer an engine failure, go through the restart procedure and it starts again would you issue a "pan pan" call and head to the nearest airfield ?
I would but thinking about Farnborough or something it would mean a lot of people have to go quiet whilst I get back home.
Is it reasonable to issue a pan pan for an engine that's restarted ?
I would but thinking about Farnborough or something it would mean a lot of people have to go quiet whilst I get back home.
Is it reasonable to issue a pan pan for an engine that's restarted ?
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Depends.
If you know why it stopped, and you've fixed the problem, and know it's not likely to happen again, then no need for a pan call.
If you don't know what the problem was, you managed to start it again, and have no idea if it will continue to run, then yes a pan, or even a mayday would be appropriate.
Engines fail for a reason. If you don't know what the reason was then you probably haven't fixed it, and you have little reason to think that it will continue to run after the restart.
Don't be worried about blocking the frequency. It won't be blocked for long. Once the controller knows about your plight, they can continue to use the frequency as normal if they feel that's appropriate. If they don't feel that's appropriate they can swap to another dedicated frequency. In case, blocking the frequency should be the least of your concerns at the time.
dp
If you know why it stopped, and you've fixed the problem, and know it's not likely to happen again, then no need for a pan call.
If you don't know what the problem was, you managed to start it again, and have no idea if it will continue to run, then yes a pan, or even a mayday would be appropriate.
Engines fail for a reason. If you don't know what the reason was then you probably haven't fixed it, and you have little reason to think that it will continue to run after the restart.
Don't be worried about blocking the frequency. It won't be blocked for long. Once the controller knows about your plight, they can continue to use the frequency as normal if they feel that's appropriate. If they don't feel that's appropriate they can swap to another dedicated frequency. In case, blocking the frequency should be the least of your concerns at the time.
dp
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It would depend on if you'd managed to work out why it had stopped and the unique circumstances on the day.
Any particular situation you were thinking of?
Any particular situation you were thinking of?
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There are very few things which could cause an engine to stop, and which would not be a huge cause for concern even if I got it restarted.
Off hand I can't think of any realistic ones, other than idiot passengers doing something like pulling the mixture lever all the way back.
If the electric fuel pump makes it come back then you have a shredded engine driven fuel pump, with debris floating around, so better land ASAP, if possible somewhere with engineering facilities.
If pulling the alternate air (fuel injected so no carb icing) makes it come back then you have a blocked air filter... not too bad but I would head back somewhere with engineering facilities because short of very heavy rain / snow this should not happen, and has never happened to me in the heaviest rain.
Either way, it's a pan call, at least.
Off hand I can't think of any realistic ones, other than idiot passengers doing something like pulling the mixture lever all the way back.
If the electric fuel pump makes it come back then you have a shredded engine driven fuel pump, with debris floating around, so better land ASAP, if possible somewhere with engineering facilities.
If pulling the alternate air (fuel injected so no carb icing) makes it come back then you have a blocked air filter... not too bad but I would head back somewhere with engineering facilities because short of very heavy rain / snow this should not happen, and has never happened to me in the heaviest rain.
Either way, it's a pan call, at least.
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One realistic scenario springs to mind - running a tank dry and having the engine stop before clicking what's happened. Once re-started and the problem identified, you'd have no reason to worry about the engine not carrying on as normal.
Embarrassing and character-building but not warranting a pan or mayday (assuming you'd not made one initially)
V1R
Embarrassing and character-building but not warranting a pan or mayday (assuming you'd not made one initially)
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If you have an engine failure (assuming SEP) get a Mayday out double-quick. We (radar) can plot your position, give you surface wind, things we may know about the area (eg nearby runways!) and vector a rescue cab to you. Don't worry about phraseology - just "Mayday", C/S and engine-failure will get us going.
If it starts again by all means downgrade to a Pan or cancel altogether if you as the a/c commander feel it's the appropriate course of action. Whatever you do decide, rest assured we'll be keeping a blummin' close eye on you until you're landing of your own volition! Just in case!
ap
If it starts again by all means downgrade to a Pan or cancel altogether if you as the a/c commander feel it's the appropriate course of action. Whatever you do decide, rest assured we'll be keeping a blummin' close eye on you until you're landing of your own volition! Just in case!
ap
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I know what you mean (I think) aluminium persuader, but the critical SE actions are to establish best glide, go through the memory/QRC re-start checks (including selecting a fuel tank with fuel 
), look for somewhere to put it down if it hasn't restarted, then talk to someone.
Stalling into the ground whilst talking is never a good plan, so the primary response has to be to fly, then diagnose/fix, then talk.
I'm sure that's what you mean, too
Vee One...Rotate, great minds and all that
), look for somewhere to put it down if it hasn't restarted, then talk to someone.Stalling into the ground whilst talking is never a good plan, so the primary response has to be to fly, then diagnose/fix, then talk.
I'm sure that's what you mean, too
Vee One...Rotate, great minds and all that
The school where I got my private SEL and helicopter had this type of scenario. Instructor and a first time student are out in a C152. Engine conks out, probably due to carb ice. Instructor goes through emergency procedures for real, lines up on a good field. Engine springs back to life. "Hot diggety dog!" instructor thinks, beelines back to the home airport (about 10 miles away). Gets out of range of the field, engine quits for good. They land on the entrance ramp of a highway, bust up the 152, nobody hurt. Must have made quite an impression on the first time student, I don't know if she continued or not.
My helo instructor offered a little analysis of this accident. He said the one thing the guy did wrong was to beeline back. From 10 miles away, he would have climbed over the good field until he had a bunch of altitude. Then he would have set off. If the engine conked out during the climb, back to the field he goes, plenty of time to get off a radio call. If it conks out enroute back to home, plenty of glide distance to either get back to the field or the home airport. Easy for us to analyze it after the fact. But maybe that will help our decision making should something similar happen to us.
In a roundabout way, what I'm proposing is that getting off a pan call is less important than thinking about how you are going to safely complete the flight. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Aviate first.
As an aside, I had my only forced landing (not counting gliders) in one of the school's other C152's. Carb ice. Couldn't clear it, ended up at an airport as I had plenty of altitude and partial power rather than a dramatic engine failure. I'm not sure if the 152's are suseptible to carb ice, or if they had maintenance issues. But at least I didn't make the front page of the paper!
-- IFMU
My helo instructor offered a little analysis of this accident. He said the one thing the guy did wrong was to beeline back. From 10 miles away, he would have climbed over the good field until he had a bunch of altitude. Then he would have set off. If the engine conked out during the climb, back to the field he goes, plenty of time to get off a radio call. If it conks out enroute back to home, plenty of glide distance to either get back to the field or the home airport. Easy for us to analyze it after the fact. But maybe that will help our decision making should something similar happen to us.
In a roundabout way, what I'm proposing is that getting off a pan call is less important than thinking about how you are going to safely complete the flight. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Aviate first.
As an aside, I had my only forced landing (not counting gliders) in one of the school's other C152's. Carb ice. Couldn't clear it, ended up at an airport as I had plenty of altitude and partial power rather than a dramatic engine failure. I'm not sure if the 152's are suseptible to carb ice, or if they had maintenance issues. But at least I didn't make the front page of the paper!
-- IFMU
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From 10 miles away, he would have climbed over the good field until he had a bunch of altitude.
And obviously, once you've got that mayday out and are squawking 7700, even the class A airways and TMAs above you magically open up for you, don't they?
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the critical SE actions are to establish best glide
That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.
Statistically, a suitable landing site is equally likely to be near or far away.
The nearby option - in fact one nearly below and slightly to the left - is easiest to inspect for suitability.
So, setting up a lowest sink speed, which is considerably slower than Vbg, is likely to be better because it gives you most time to think.
Think about what happens if above an overcast. Vbg makes no sense at all.
Unless you have a GPS and you can see some place you specifically want to glide to, in which case Vbg is the best choice until you are overhead the place, and then set the lowest sink speed.
But even Vbg varies according to wind. For best glide range, with headwind, you want to glide faster than Vbg. With tailwind you want to glide slower than Vbg.
That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.
Statistically, a suitable landing site is equally likely to be near or far away.
The nearby option - in fact one nearly below and slightly to the left - is easiest to inspect for suitability.
So, setting up a lowest sink speed, which is considerably slower than Vbg, is likely to be better because it gives you most time to think.
Think about what happens if above an overcast. Vbg makes no sense at all.
Unless you have a GPS and you can see some place you specifically want to glide to, in which case Vbg is the best choice until you are overhead the place, and then set the lowest sink speed.
But even Vbg varies according to wind. For best glide range, with headwind, you want to glide faster than Vbg. With tailwind you want to glide slower than Vbg.
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IO540, I agree.
However, the rational behind the adoption of best glide is to give you options. My view is that this is justified (at least in part) as it can take a while (relatively speaking!) to assess the best option so initial height is always not negative. Also, getting into to a field you are on top of is not that easy. You could spend some time gliding around which makes judging the height(s) quite tricky because it is harder to assess the relative angle. The other, and possibly better, option is not taught at PPL, but at CPL which is a Vfe and gear out spiral dive (taught primarily for the engine fire scenario, but I was expected to use it whenever). This can require quite an aggressive level of manoeuvering compared to the usual stuff that PPLs are expected to do, but in my experience is much easier to judge for getting into a close in.
Personally, I find PFLs the hardest manoever to complete with a satisfactory level of confidence in the end result. Any situation is going to be tricky, on balance I would go with the received wisdom and go for height first.
On the subject of Mayday. Unlike the Twin Driver scenario, I doubt there is much ATC can do to help. I would say that Mayday is the last thing to do once you are 'locked' on to a field and stable. Trouble is you will probably be below the best height for any RDF.
However, the rational behind the adoption of best glide is to give you options. My view is that this is justified (at least in part) as it can take a while (relatively speaking!) to assess the best option so initial height is always not negative. Also, getting into to a field you are on top of is not that easy. You could spend some time gliding around which makes judging the height(s) quite tricky because it is harder to assess the relative angle. The other, and possibly better, option is not taught at PPL, but at CPL which is a Vfe and gear out spiral dive (taught primarily for the engine fire scenario, but I was expected to use it whenever). This can require quite an aggressive level of manoeuvering compared to the usual stuff that PPLs are expected to do, but in my experience is much easier to judge for getting into a close in.
Personally, I find PFLs the hardest manoever to complete with a satisfactory level of confidence in the end result. Any situation is going to be tricky, on balance I would go with the received wisdom and go for height first.
On the subject of Mayday. Unlike the Twin Driver scenario, I doubt there is much ATC can do to help. I would say that Mayday is the last thing to do once you are 'locked' on to a field and stable. Trouble is you will probably be below the best height for any RDF.
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Originally Posted by IO540
Originally Posted by me
the critical SE actions are to establish best glide
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High Wing -
Sfc wind, so you can land into it
Alert ground rescue services so they can get there asap
Scramble SAR
Had an a/c went in off an adjacent a/f a few years ago. As it happened he didn't have time to call maydaybut he'd not reported airborne & I just "had a feeling". Quick phone call, found out he'd gone in. Had a Lynx on-site in about 2 mins, SAR in about 5, both occupants in hospital within 30mins.
Also had a Practice Pan more recently - C150, rough-running engine & wanted vectors back to base, about 12 miles. Pointed out a runway on his left by about a mile & PFL commenced.
I'm not in anyway saying call ahead of flying the plane, but I am saying that ATC is a huge resource you can call on. Particularly with single-crew ops, think of us within the CRM envelope.
ap
Sfc wind, so you can land into it
Alert ground rescue services so they can get there asap
Scramble SAR
Had an a/c went in off an adjacent a/f a few years ago. As it happened he didn't have time to call maydaybut he'd not reported airborne & I just "had a feeling". Quick phone call, found out he'd gone in. Had a Lynx on-site in about 2 mins, SAR in about 5, both occupants in hospital within 30mins.
Also had a Practice Pan more recently - C150, rough-running engine & wanted vectors back to base, about 12 miles. Pointed out a runway on his left by about a mile & PFL commenced.
I'm not in anyway saying call ahead of flying the plane, but I am saying that ATC is a huge resource you can call on. Particularly with single-crew ops, think of us within the CRM envelope.
ap
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Alu Persauder,
Absolutely. I think my words did suggest possibly otherwise. I'm coming from the angle that a forced landing requires so much concentration that any distractions would probably degrade the pilot's ability to pull it off. Asking for wind is something you would have to do prior to selecting a field, hence a potentially critical delay. The pilot must really be prepared with an estimate based on the 2000' and keep an eye out for local tell tales. Obviously your position for S&R is potentially vital information. But I would not attempt to transmit it until locked on and stable.
I'm not in anyway saying call ahead of flying the plane, but I am saying that ATC is a huge resource you can call on.
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In addition to the above, if you have time (and a transponder fitted), squawk 7700.
That way you can get on with the job in hand, every radar unit in the vicinity equipped with SSR (inc. D & D) will know you've got a problem and even if you don't get a chance to speak before you land, we'll know where you are be able to direct help to you.
That way you can get on with the job in hand, every radar unit in the vicinity equipped with SSR (inc. D & D) will know you've got a problem and even if you don't get a chance to speak before you land, we'll know where you are be able to direct help to you.
I've always wondered what happens in ATC when emergency code is squawked. Does it sound an audible alarm, or highlight the contact on the screen, or simply rely on the controller spotting the relevant codes amongst the myriad squawks on his 'scope?