Pan pan after engine failue ?
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A few of our newer planes have a remote ELT switch on the panel; last item on the engine out checklist is to switch it on (in the air). Suppose if too busy for a chat we could at least have time to flick that switch, even faster than messing around with the transponder... But would be interested to hear what the ATC people say; how much good would it do us to just switch on the ELT before landing?
Bjornhall, the ELT should be picked up by D&D if you are in the air and by airborne aircraft once you are on the ground (or water). In the second case, pilots of aircraft hearing an ELT would normally report it to the ATC agency they are working who relay that to D&D. If that's the first notice that D&D have of it, they'll relay that information to the rescue coordination centre and a satellite fix on the ELT's location is the next step.
I'd also echo the advice on page 1 to select 7700 on the squawk, if you have the time.
I'd also echo the advice on page 1 to select 7700 on the squawk, if you have the time.
Last edited by Il Duce; 10th Oct 2007 at 19:55.
Interesting points about best glide speed and best endurance speed. I tend to mix the two up when teaching PFL's using words like 'Carb heat hot (cos most likely cause is ice), then trim for best glide speed to buy you some time to think while you consider wind and look for field.' Checks and Mayday call then secondary - fly the aeroplane first.
Thinking about it, 'Trim for best glide speed to buy you some time to think' is wrong. I should be saying 'best endurance speed'.
Presumably in a real life situation, the two speeds are likely to be within a knot or two of each other anyway. The main point is not to allow height to disappear as you descend at 100+ knots, or try to hold nose up with elevator (ie not trim) and run the risk of stalling while you're distracted with looking for a field, doing checks, making RT call, etc. Best glide is usually faster than best endurance, it's usually a familiar speed (about the same as normal approach speed), and in everything I've instructed on equates to pretty much the S+L 'picture', so it just 'feels' safe.
On several (demo) PFLs I've chopped the throttle on myself at less than 1000' AGL on the go-around from a student's PFL attempt and it's no harder (and often easier) then doing the same at 3000'+, assuming you're not over a city, water, forest etc. 'There's a field', into wind, full flap, mixture lean, swear over the radio with the word Mayday for good measure and drive the thing in. Worry about why it stopped once you're safely on the ground.
As for wind direction, I teach the 'Which runway did I take off from and was there a x-wind and if so from which side?' technique as a rough guide to surface wind.
Incidentally, on a recent tower visit, a military transit had an RT fail and appeared as a flashing 7600 next to the secondary return. On that particular radar set up, I was told that a 7700 squawk would flash in the same way.
Thinking about it, 'Trim for best glide speed to buy you some time to think' is wrong. I should be saying 'best endurance speed'.
Presumably in a real life situation, the two speeds are likely to be within a knot or two of each other anyway. The main point is not to allow height to disappear as you descend at 100+ knots, or try to hold nose up with elevator (ie not trim) and run the risk of stalling while you're distracted with looking for a field, doing checks, making RT call, etc. Best glide is usually faster than best endurance, it's usually a familiar speed (about the same as normal approach speed), and in everything I've instructed on equates to pretty much the S+L 'picture', so it just 'feels' safe.
On several (demo) PFLs I've chopped the throttle on myself at less than 1000' AGL on the go-around from a student's PFL attempt and it's no harder (and often easier) then doing the same at 3000'+, assuming you're not over a city, water, forest etc. 'There's a field', into wind, full flap, mixture lean, swear over the radio with the word Mayday for good measure and drive the thing in. Worry about why it stopped once you're safely on the ground.
As for wind direction, I teach the 'Which runway did I take off from and was there a x-wind and if so from which side?' technique as a rough guide to surface wind.
Incidentally, on a recent tower visit, a military transit had an RT fail and appeared as a flashing 7600 next to the secondary return. On that particular radar set up, I was told that a 7700 squawk would flash in the same way.
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Originally Posted by IO540
Statistically, a suitable landing site is equally likely to be near or far away.
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Presumably in a real life situation, the two speeds are likely to be within a knot or two of each other anyway.
the critical SE actions are to establish best glide
That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.
That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.
I had often argued against the single-minded 'go to best glide speed after an engine failure' training after I got my glider rating. Like IO540 says, those speeds are dependent upon wind. They are also dependent upon weight. But as I think about it, trimming for best glide does provide some safety against the stall at the bottom. If you end up in a bad spot it is better to crash well, with minimum descent rate and speed, rather than stall and drop it in.
Sure, if you are high and trim up for minimum sink speed, you have more time to think and troubleshoot. Probably not a lot more time. And, will you remember at the bottom to speed up again to have that airspeed for the flare? I might, after all that's what I do in gliders. But would the average Joe, as he ended up close to the ground, think to push the nose over and get the speed back up as the ground was rising to smite him? It is counter intuative, especially in a genuine emergency situation.
Back to the thread, there is one other psychological benefit of declaring a pan in this scenario, or at least telling air traffic control about it. When you admit a problem to the controllers, then you have admitted it to yourself. I wonder if the instructor from my old flight school hadn't admitted to himself there was a problem, or rather he convinced himself that the problem had gone away. If he was still thinking 'problem' maybe he would have made some different decisions.
-- IFMU
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the ELT should be picked up by D&D if you are in the air
An ELT won't be picked up in the time it takes any GA aircraft to glide to the ground.
The 121.5 transmission might be picked up immediately but it comes out at a very low power, sufficient for a range of some 10-20nm only. The 243 or 406MHz emissions are used for satellite-derived position fixing but they take minutes at best and possibly an hour or more to fix you. By all means do set off the ELT while still airborne but it won't do you any good until a fair bit later.
I would immediately set 7700 as that will be picked up by a lot of ground units, both ones we know about and ones we don't know about. London Control for example can see secondary returns some distance into France, at GA levels.
Minimum sink is usually just a few knots above the stall burble
Quite, which is why it can be a better idea. Single engine certification limit on Vs is 61kt, so the min sink speed might be 65kt. The Vbg, on the other hand, is 95kt for mine (TB20). The ratio of the two speeds is likely to be similar for other SE types.
If descending through IMC, it's a lot better to hit trees (or anything else for that matter) at 65kt than at 95kt. The difference in energy is about 2x.
An ELT won't be picked up in the time it takes any GA aircraft to glide to the ground.
The 121.5 transmission might be picked up immediately but it comes out at a very low power, sufficient for a range of some 10-20nm only. The 243 or 406MHz emissions are used for satellite-derived position fixing but they take minutes at best and possibly an hour or more to fix you. By all means do set off the ELT while still airborne but it won't do you any good until a fair bit later.
I would immediately set 7700 as that will be picked up by a lot of ground units, both ones we know about and ones we don't know about. London Control for example can see secondary returns some distance into France, at GA levels.
Minimum sink is usually just a few knots above the stall burble
Quite, which is why it can be a better idea. Single engine certification limit on Vs is 61kt, so the min sink speed might be 65kt. The Vbg, on the other hand, is 95kt for mine (TB20). The ratio of the two speeds is likely to be similar for other SE types.
If descending through IMC, it's a lot better to hit trees (or anything else for that matter) at 65kt than at 95kt. The difference in energy is about 2x.
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I wanted to add one point.
As others have said fly the aircraft etc but if you can despatch a pan or mayday (I think it should be a mayday) make every effort to do so.
I good friend of mine died after an engine failure. Whilst the circumstances of his arrival were not fully understood, it is probable had AT known of his plight he would have been found in time to save his life. As it turned out the rescue services did not arrive at the scene until some considerable time after. There was no need for this to have been the case (a very easy site to get to) - it was simply that no one knew the aircraft was down.
It is not brave or clever to believe you will pull off the perfect landing, the fact is even if every is looking good you can never been absolutely certain whether there is a pot hole or some small obstruction in an otherwise perfect field that might be enough to turn the aricraft over.
Make the call if you possibly can.
As others have said fly the aircraft etc but if you can despatch a pan or mayday (I think it should be a mayday) make every effort to do so.
I good friend of mine died after an engine failure. Whilst the circumstances of his arrival were not fully understood, it is probable had AT known of his plight he would have been found in time to save his life. As it turned out the rescue services did not arrive at the scene until some considerable time after. There was no need for this to have been the case (a very easy site to get to) - it was simply that no one knew the aircraft was down.
It is not brave or clever to believe you will pull off the perfect landing, the fact is even if every is looking good you can never been absolutely certain whether there is a pot hole or some small obstruction in an otherwise perfect field that might be enough to turn the aricraft over.
Make the call if you possibly can.
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Are you threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
require immediate assistance? If so then its a MAYDAY
or
are you concerned about the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but do not require immediate assistance? Then its a PAN PAN
Simple Question you deceide.
require immediate assistance? If so then its a MAYDAY
or
are you concerned about the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but do not require immediate assistance? Then its a PAN PAN
Simple Question you deceide.
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StrateandLevel
I dont think so:
Flight crew can declare emergencies at two levels: Pan and Mayday. A Pan call concerns the safety of an aircraft, or of a person on board, where immediate assistance is not required. A Mayday call is the more serious. A Mayday call does not necessarily indicate that the aircraft is in imminent danger but that the crew requires urgent attention from the air traffic controller.
.. .. .. assuming you know why it stopped in the first place that is.
I dont think so:
Flight crew can declare emergencies at two levels: Pan and Mayday. A Pan call concerns the safety of an aircraft, or of a person on board, where immediate assistance is not required. A Mayday call is the more serious. A Mayday call does not necessarily indicate that the aircraft is in imminent danger but that the crew requires urgent attention from the air traffic controller.
If you issued a PAN PAN PAN alert, and meanwhile you could restart the engine, you may cancel the alert.
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If you issued a PAN PAN PAN alert, and meanwhile you could restart the engine, you may cancel the alert.
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I don't think quote ping pong is going to add much clarity to the subject. The CAA advice in Pink 68 seems to indicate that they are keen to get the message across that pilots should not be reluctant to declare an emergency. The CAA also advise that pilots taking the simple step of preventing ambiguity and explicitly a Mayday or Pan and not simply state the problem and assume it is being handled as such. The advice seems to be if in doubt call Mayday and downgrade later if appropriate.
I don't see any sense in over analysing the wording or definitions. Also I would have thought that in the vast majority of situations, a stopped and restarted engine cannot be trusted, in which case you are certainly in imminent danger.
I don't see any sense in over analysing the wording or definitions. Also I would have thought that in the vast majority of situations, a stopped and restarted engine cannot be trusted, in which case you are certainly in imminent danger.
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Purely out of interest, what is your source for that quote?
I suggest you try reading the definitions in ICAO Doc 9342, CAP 413, and ITU documents.
Moreover, I thought his views reflected a far more accurate assessment of the position - one in which the captain is not expecting to "crash" but requires the immediate attention of AT
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Shame he's wrong, then!
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
Shouldn't trust a politician!
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
Shouldn't trust a politician!
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Shame he's wrong, then!
A commercial departs and suffers an engine failure. There is no immediate danger. The crew are well practised, there is no fire, and ample power to continue safely on one engine. The aircraft is not in serious or imminent danger but the crew call a mayday because they rightly require complete priority to return and land - it is SOP.