CAA licence issue nightmare
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CAA licence issue nightmare
Just had the most infuriating email from the CAA personnel licensing department and I'm gutted.
Having passed the GST a month ago I've been itching for the poo brown to turn up only to find that my PPL(A) application was incomplete.
Having been supervised by two of my instructors and had all the docs signed off by the CFI there are some glaring omissions:
CAA say there was no QXC certificate included - I'm sure there was.
CAA say there was no FRTOL application included - again I'm sure there was.
CAA say the instructor who signed off my ground exams is not an approved Ground Examiner. They have requested my school now write to the CAA to explain.
I will not be getting my licence until this lot is sorted out. I know I have 12 months from the test to get my licence application approved but this has blown away my excitement at passing.
Anybody know what happens if these vital docs are lost in the post? Does it mean I have to redo some of the training or just get duplicates done? Also, how long can it take to get the school to sort out the examiner issue or can I just get another instructor to sign off my results?
All help or guidance appreciated. I'm off to the school first thing to try and figure this all out.
Lunchmaster
Having passed the GST a month ago I've been itching for the poo brown to turn up only to find that my PPL(A) application was incomplete.
Having been supervised by two of my instructors and had all the docs signed off by the CFI there are some glaring omissions: CAA say there was no QXC certificate included - I'm sure there was.
CAA say there was no FRTOL application included - again I'm sure there was.
CAA say the instructor who signed off my ground exams is not an approved Ground Examiner. They have requested my school now write to the CAA to explain.
I will not be getting my licence until this lot is sorted out. I know I have 12 months from the test to get my licence application approved but this has blown away my excitement at passing.
Anybody know what happens if these vital docs are lost in the post? Does it mean I have to redo some of the training or just get duplicates done? Also, how long can it take to get the school to sort out the examiner issue or can I just get another instructor to sign off my results?
All help or guidance appreciated. I'm off to the school first thing to try and figure this all out.
Lunchmaster
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Beaurocracy by an Ex beaurocrat
Hi Lunchmaster,
I'm very sorry to hear about the cockup. So far as I can see, there is nothing else you can do about it that you are'nt already doing, i.e. sourcing duplicates of the necessary docs and getting them off in the post asap.
However, speaking as an ex local governent officer, for the benefit of any future applications you make, or those of anyone else reading this post, especially applications to departments of central government. (That is not only to the CAA but to DES, DWP or any other government department or agency). Please learn one lesson. None of them can be trusted with papers sent in to them. ('Lost in the post' my a**e).
Hence, first always include a 'list of enclosures' with your application form, listing the things included with it, and a covering letter asking the recipient to check the contents of your envelope against the list and advise you immediately if there are any discrepancies.
Secondly, and most importantly, send all letters by recorded delivery and attach the receipt for postage to your copies of the material sent and keep them in a safe place until the transaction is completed.
This way, if there should be a cock up, you have hard evidence that it is their cock up, not yours, and they will then be honour bound to sort out the mess with as little trouble to you as possible. Furthermore, if things don't improve, you also have hard evidence to pass on to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration (the Ombudsman).
This is how I have always done it and on occasion it has paid rich dividends.
Best of luck: enjoy your flying, when you finally get to do it.
Broomstick
I'm very sorry to hear about the cockup. So far as I can see, there is nothing else you can do about it that you are'nt already doing, i.e. sourcing duplicates of the necessary docs and getting them off in the post asap.
However, speaking as an ex local governent officer, for the benefit of any future applications you make, or those of anyone else reading this post, especially applications to departments of central government. (That is not only to the CAA but to DES, DWP or any other government department or agency). Please learn one lesson. None of them can be trusted with papers sent in to them. ('Lost in the post' my a**e).
Hence, first always include a 'list of enclosures' with your application form, listing the things included with it, and a covering letter asking the recipient to check the contents of your envelope against the list and advise you immediately if there are any discrepancies.
Secondly, and most importantly, send all letters by recorded delivery and attach the receipt for postage to your copies of the material sent and keep them in a safe place until the transaction is completed.
This way, if there should be a cock up, you have hard evidence that it is their cock up, not yours, and they will then be honour bound to sort out the mess with as little trouble to you as possible. Furthermore, if things don't improve, you also have hard evidence to pass on to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration (the Ombudsman).
This is how I have always done it and on occasion it has paid rich dividends.
Best of luck: enjoy your flying, when you finally get to do it.
Broomstick
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Sample cover letter
Very simple. This is all that I wrote them:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Aviation Authority
Personell Licensing Department
Aviation House,
Gatwick Airport South,
West Sussex RH6 0YR
United Kingdom
<place>, <date>
Dear Sir, Madam,
I hereby wish to apply for the JAR-FCL Private Pilot License (Aeroplanes).
Please find enclosed the following:
1.JAR-FCL Private Pilot License (Aeroplanes) Application (CAA form SRG\1105)
2.Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence Application (CAA form SRG\1106)
3.JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skills test report form (CAA form SRG\1166)
4.Original JAA Medical Certificate, class II, number XXX
5.Original FAA Medical Certificate 3rd class and student pilot certificate
6.Copy of my passport, certified by the head of training of XXX
7.Copy of my PPL(A) Qualifying Cross Country Certificate
8.Original JAA logbook
With kind regards,
<my personal details>
--------------------------------
Item 5 was eclosed because I did my PPL in Florida. A UK-trained PPL would not have one.
Got my license, plus all the originals, back in about three weeks (as far as I remember).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Aviation Authority
Personell Licensing Department
Aviation House,
Gatwick Airport South,
West Sussex RH6 0YR
United Kingdom
<place>, <date>
Dear Sir, Madam,
I hereby wish to apply for the JAR-FCL Private Pilot License (Aeroplanes).
Please find enclosed the following:
1.JAR-FCL Private Pilot License (Aeroplanes) Application (CAA form SRG\1105)
2.Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence Application (CAA form SRG\1106)
3.JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skills test report form (CAA form SRG\1166)
4.Original JAA Medical Certificate, class II, number XXX
5.Original FAA Medical Certificate 3rd class and student pilot certificate
6.Copy of my passport, certified by the head of training of XXX
7.Copy of my PPL(A) Qualifying Cross Country Certificate
8.Original JAA logbook
With kind regards,
<my personal details>
--------------------------------
Item 5 was eclosed because I did my PPL in Florida. A UK-trained PPL would not have one.
Got my license, plus all the originals, back in about three weeks (as far as I remember).
Blah Blah Blah
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I would say unless everything was photocopied you are screwed and will need to do the cross country's again and get the signatures requred.
As for the FRTOL and ground exams forms I am sure that your school would be able to fill out some more forms with the "correct" signature.
One good thing (but not good for you) is the CAA are asking the school to explain themselves, and I would imagine it needs to be a bloody explanation in order to prevent the CAA taking action.
When you say you are sure the missing items were included...how sure are you? did you personaly check everything, seal and send the envelope yourself?
As for the FRTOL and ground exams forms I am sure that your school would be able to fill out some more forms with the "correct" signature.
One good thing (but not good for you) is the CAA are asking the school to explain themselves, and I would imagine it needs to be a bloody explanation in order to prevent the CAA taking action.
When you say you are sure the missing items were included...how sure are you? did you personaly check everything, seal and send the envelope yourself?
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But surely this isn't totally the CAA's fault...? If your instructor was not certified to sign off your exams, then it is the schools fault.
Where did you do the PPL?
Where did you do the PPL?
Last edited by englishal; 20th Sep 2007 at 23:28. Reason: because i didn't read the post properly :)
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Papers
Lunchmaster
You will not be required to do the QXC all over again! If you do not have a photocopy of the QXC Cert. then it will be possible to fax or email to each place of landing a fresh copy and ask them to resign and return to you, that should not be a problem.
A new FRTOL application form can be completed and resigned (the FRTOL is not a requirement for the issue of your PPL incidentally).
The examiner with whom you undertook your written examinations will have retained the actual dated and signed exam answer papers and therefore can verify your passes or are you saying that that is the person who the CAA say is not an approved ground examiner.
The system is that a flying school nominated custodian holds the examination papers but the custodian of the papers could be a seperate person from the ground examiner. A Flight Examiner since JAA land may not be an approved Ground Examiner. A ground examiner from another school may not be authorised to invigilate exams at your school. All very messy in my view and causing some confusion. If it can be shown that you did in fact genuinely pass each exam by faxed submittion of the original papers I would hope that the CAA will not penalise you for it. They may well have an issue with your flying school just the same.
You will not be required to do the QXC all over again! If you do not have a photocopy of the QXC Cert. then it will be possible to fax or email to each place of landing a fresh copy and ask them to resign and return to you, that should not be a problem.
A new FRTOL application form can be completed and resigned (the FRTOL is not a requirement for the issue of your PPL incidentally).
The examiner with whom you undertook your written examinations will have retained the actual dated and signed exam answer papers and therefore can verify your passes or are you saying that that is the person who the CAA say is not an approved ground examiner.
The system is that a flying school nominated custodian holds the examination papers but the custodian of the papers could be a seperate person from the ground examiner. A Flight Examiner since JAA land may not be an approved Ground Examiner. A ground examiner from another school may not be authorised to invigilate exams at your school. All very messy in my view and causing some confusion. If it can be shown that you did in fact genuinely pass each exam by faxed submittion of the original papers I would hope that the CAA will not penalise you for it. They may well have an issue with your flying school just the same.
One would hope that a Training Standards Inspector visits this school.....
The CFI/Head of Training has a duty of care to ensure that you, as the customer, were properly served. The simplest way for a CFI to ensure that the correct paperwork has been submitted is to go through the checklist on the PPL application form, line by line, ticking off each item when satisfactorily completed.
Only nominated Ground Examiners can mark your ground exam papers - and for the CFI to allow anyone else to do so is unforgiveable. But your school should still have the papers, so another Ground Examiner should be able to recheck the marking. No-one else (except the Authority) is allowed to see the answer papers and they most certainly should NOT be faxed anywhere.
Always keep copies of application forms and the last page of your logbook - and always send documents to the CAA by Registered Post (or whatever they call it these days).
The CFI/Head of Training has a duty of care to ensure that you, as the customer, were properly served. The simplest way for a CFI to ensure that the correct paperwork has been submitted is to go through the checklist on the PPL application form, line by line, ticking off each item when satisfactorily completed.
Only nominated Ground Examiners can mark your ground exam papers - and for the CFI to allow anyone else to do so is unforgiveable. But your school should still have the papers, so another Ground Examiner should be able to recheck the marking. No-one else (except the Authority) is allowed to see the answer papers and they most certainly should NOT be faxed anywhere.
Always keep copies of application forms and the last page of your logbook - and always send documents to the CAA by Registered Post (or whatever they call it these days).
Last edited by BEagle; 21st Sep 2007 at 07:59. Reason: Spooling miskate!
