Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!
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Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!
Turned up at the airfield last Friday to find a nice shiny six seat single prop visitor that had overnighted.Two minutes later pilot arrives,jumps in,no external checks, said aeroplane starts up,taxies to the active a minute after start up,lines up, no power checks and takes off.To cap it all then departs low level with a right turnout totally against published local noise abatement procedures.Surprisingly he did manage to take off into wind!
Is it a wonder accidents happen?!?!
Is it a wonder accidents happen?!?!
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Maybe he had already done them. Was there an opportunity for him to have done the checks before you arrived and be on his way back to the aircraft having made a short trip to recycle some tea or coffee?
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External checks
Well he may have done them before you started watching?
Pre take off checks
PPLs are use to seeing the checks done at the hold. The vast majority of checks can be done whilst on the taxi way. Perhaps this was the case?
I guess there are some "brave" pilots flying this sort of aircraft but probably rather less than flying other types so I would not want to rush with my judgement.
Of course you could be absolutely right!!
Well he may have done them before you started watching?
Pre take off checks
PPLs are use to seeing the checks done at the hold. The vast majority of checks can be done whilst on the taxi way. Perhaps this was the case?
I guess there are some "brave" pilots flying this sort of aircraft but probably rather less than flying other types so I would not want to rush with my judgement.
Of course you could be absolutely right!!
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What power checks does a PT6 (or equiv)-based aircraft need to do?
If he/she "A" checked it before you got there then went for a slash/coffee then departed what's the problem? (Other than the alleged noise-abatement breach)
If he/she "A" checked it before you got there then went for a slash/coffee then departed what's the problem? (Other than the alleged noise-abatement breach)
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Or have you thought that maybe, for many of us who fly day in day out we can see at a glance if our own aircraft is ready for flight as we walk towards it. That it has not been banged around like the average club hack because only we fly it. That before we leave the aircraft we check it is ready for flight the next day to save the time checking it before we leave. That as experienced and regular flyers we don't need to walk around with a check list for 30 mins waggling bits that worked perfectly well on the flight in. That we are capable of checking the mags, wobbling the prop and looking at the T&P's as we taxi. That even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time.
And that sometimes those who insist on doing all of the above bug the crap out of us as well but we don't makes posts moaning about it?
Fair enough about the right turn out, it bugs the crap out the club at Leics as well.....
And that sometimes those who insist on doing all of the above bug the crap out of us as well but we don't makes posts moaning about it?
Fair enough about the right turn out, it bugs the crap out the club at Leics as well.....
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What power checks does a PT6
mind you, you added "or equivalent".
Interesting that on this modern FADEC kit power checks during taxi are a little more tricky as you cant fail the ECUs and cycle the props at anything other than power idle - mind you easy to dispense with before you move off the pan.
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Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen
Just to follow up on some of the comments:
1 It wasn't a turbine-good old sep
2 Definitely hadn't been and done pre-flight earlier-as for a cup of coffee-I wish!
3 Subsequently found out the individual had only acquired aircraft two days previously
4 The airfield is a grass strip-doesn't have the luxury of taxiways hence quite clear that no power checks done even on the move.Of course a "hush kit" could have been fitted!
5 Bose-X-maybe you have the luxury of security on your airfield- we don't- with several public footpaths crossing the airfield and the aircraft potentially open to any interference I wouldn't fly anything without a good external check
SF
1 It wasn't a turbine-good old sep
2 Definitely hadn't been and done pre-flight earlier-as for a cup of coffee-I wish!
3 Subsequently found out the individual had only acquired aircraft two days previously
4 The airfield is a grass strip-doesn't have the luxury of taxiways hence quite clear that no power checks done even on the move.Of course a "hush kit" could have been fitted!
5 Bose-X-maybe you have the luxury of security on your airfield- we don't- with several public footpaths crossing the airfield and the aircraft potentially open to any interference I wouldn't fly anything without a good external check
SF
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Interesting that on this modern FADEC kit power checks during taxi are a little more tricky as you cant fail the ECUs and cycle the props at anything other than power idle - mind you easy to dispense with before you move off the pan.
(for the record on FADEC Tdi's FADEC doesn't thrash the engines up to 2000 rpm for the power checks)
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I believe there was an accident some years ago in a Mooney where it took the pilot 2 minutes from start to climb out. The aircraft crashed.
The investigators conclusion was lose of control due to a failed AH, probably because enough time wasn't given for it to spin up to the correct speed.
The investigators conclusion was lose of control due to a failed AH, probably because enough time wasn't given for it to spin up to the correct speed.
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Or have you thought that maybe, for many of us who fly day in day out we can see at a glance if our own aircraft is ready for flight as we walk towards it. That it has not been banged around like the average club hack because only we fly it. That before we leave the aircraft we check it is ready for flight the next day to save the time checking it before we leave. That as experienced and regular flyers we don't need to walk around with a check list for 30 mins waggling bits that worked perfectly well on the flight in. That we are capable of checking the mags, wobbling the prop and looking at the T&P's as we taxi. That even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time.
Perhaps I'm just a timid pilot, then. I believe in a thorough preflight. Perhaps it's the controls I've found rigged backward. Perhaps it's the hydraulic failure that occured causing a nosewheel steering failure...funny, it was working last night. Perhaps it's arriving to find the elevator missing in the morning...but it was there last night...and so on. I preflight the airplane every time, as though it's my first time. Funnier yet...the longer I fly, and the older I get, the more careful I get.
You, who are so experienced you don't have to preflight, who know your airplane so well you've gone above and beyond the basic needs of safety...perhaps you just need a few thousand more hours and a few more years under your belt before you advocate such nonsense. You're going to get someone killed.
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"....That even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time.
I think there are a number of pilots across the Pprune website who would beg to differ with that statement...
I think there are a number of pilots across the Pprune website who would beg to differ with that statement...
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Dropping PF-checks is in my opinion NOT an option.... I fly gliders in Norway, and several times during nighttime folks have jumped over the fences and fooled around with the a/c's! Once somebody stole a whole instrument panel! 10.000 USD of equipment down the drain... Got most of it back from the insurance company though, but still..... A/C grounded rest of the season...
During my all-too-brief time in the RAF flying Chipmunks and JP3s, a walk round was mandatory, no matter what the circumstances were, or with consideration as to who was flying the aeroplane previously. That goes for all the pre and post start up items on the checklist as well. Miss anything out, and the FI would kick your arse. And these aircraft were maintained and looked after to a far higher degree than civil aircraft.
To therefore suggest, Bose-x, that these procedures are somehow unnecessary under any circumstances is ludicrous. You think the RAF are wasting their time instilling these disciplines?
To therefore suggest, Bose-x, that these procedures are somehow unnecessary under any circumstances is ludicrous. You think the RAF are wasting their time instilling these disciplines?
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Chaps,
I don't think Bose was advocating not doing checks at all, merely that when you fly an aeroplane regularly your checks tend to speed up considerably, and you can dispense with the checklist (except for backing up emergency drills), doing them from memory instead. As you're no longer heads-in with a checklist, these checks can also now be done on the roll, much like a professional pilot does. A thorough after-flight walkround significantly reduces the time you have to spend on such the next time you fly.
But like I said before - I really don't think that people with pretty much zero knowledge of the guy in question, who only have only heard one person's testimony and viewpoint, should really be passing judgement!
I don't think Bose was advocating not doing checks at all, merely that when you fly an aeroplane regularly your checks tend to speed up considerably, and you can dispense with the checklist (except for backing up emergency drills), doing them from memory instead. As you're no longer heads-in with a checklist, these checks can also now be done on the roll, much like a professional pilot does. A thorough after-flight walkround significantly reduces the time you have to spend on such the next time you fly.
But like I said before - I really don't think that people with pretty much zero knowledge of the guy in question, who only have only heard one person's testimony and viewpoint, should really be passing judgement!
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Hamish - You're talking about totally different types of flying chum. Accepting a service aeroplane, it very probably wasn't you who last flew it, you have no idea how the last chap flew it, and are also backing up someone else's servicing of the aeroplane. With your own aeroplane, the opposite is true. I'm a massive fan of RAF teaching generally, but certain aspects aren't as necessary in other types of flying.