florida or london
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My vote goes for the UK every time, I have an equal spread of hours across both the UK and Florida and the reasons I would choose the UK are -
* The US has "different" standards of RT. IMO it is far worse and you will develop bad habits. Can't remember the exact document but think its CAP413 which gives guidelines to good RT, you will really see how poor RT is in Florida after a read of this.
* The airspace rules are different, they are fairly logical and straightforward in Florida, you will have a shock when you first try to navigate around the UK with its multiple MATZ's and its complex layered airspace system.
* Alot of procedures are different, for eg. there are no overhead joins in Florida and you don't call to change frequencies in many situations in Florida.
* From experience the aircraft are maintained to a far higher standard in the UK and are in better condition, however I've only seen 3 US flight schools and approx 6 UK flying clubs so this is hardly conclusive.
* Florida is hardly the most exiting place to fly around, it is virtually totally flat and featureless and the only terrain you need to consider is the odd tall aerial. I found it extremely unchallenging.
* As mentioned there are alot of costs not considered when choosing a US school such as Visa's, flights, car hire etc.
* Very importantly consider your legal rights. It is not uncommon for a customer to be unhappy with a flight school. As a UK citizen you have very few avenues to object to any poor treatment you receive from a US registered flight school.
Any financial saving you perceive that you have gained would probably be a false economy in the long run and IMO a poor background to gain further licences and ratings in the UK. I purely built hours in Florida, whereas a fair few friends of mine obtained their PPL's in the US, and every one of them bar none are a nightmare to fly with in South East England, they find it very daunting and confusing.
Please don't think that I am against UK pilots flying/training in the US, there are also pro's to choosing the US for training or hour building, however IMO most of them are geared around saving money.
Hope this helps
* The US has "different" standards of RT. IMO it is far worse and you will develop bad habits. Can't remember the exact document but think its CAP413 which gives guidelines to good RT, you will really see how poor RT is in Florida after a read of this.
* The airspace rules are different, they are fairly logical and straightforward in Florida, you will have a shock when you first try to navigate around the UK with its multiple MATZ's and its complex layered airspace system.
* Alot of procedures are different, for eg. there are no overhead joins in Florida and you don't call to change frequencies in many situations in Florida.
* From experience the aircraft are maintained to a far higher standard in the UK and are in better condition, however I've only seen 3 US flight schools and approx 6 UK flying clubs so this is hardly conclusive.
* Florida is hardly the most exiting place to fly around, it is virtually totally flat and featureless and the only terrain you need to consider is the odd tall aerial. I found it extremely unchallenging.
* As mentioned there are alot of costs not considered when choosing a US school such as Visa's, flights, car hire etc.
* Very importantly consider your legal rights. It is not uncommon for a customer to be unhappy with a flight school. As a UK citizen you have very few avenues to object to any poor treatment you receive from a US registered flight school.
Any financial saving you perceive that you have gained would probably be a false economy in the long run and IMO a poor background to gain further licences and ratings in the UK. I purely built hours in Florida, whereas a fair few friends of mine obtained their PPL's in the US, and every one of them bar none are a nightmare to fly with in South East England, they find it very daunting and confusing.
Please don't think that I am against UK pilots flying/training in the US, there are also pro's to choosing the US for training or hour building, however IMO most of them are geared around saving money.
Hope this helps
Last edited by sussexlad; 14th Jun 2007 at 01:02.
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Sussexlad I think you are a bit harsh.
CAP413 is riddled with errors if you read it carefully, all be it continuity errors to which the average student will become confuesed with.
As for US R/T I dont think it is anymore lax than in the UK. When i came back from the states I was bricking it because everyone was saying "Oh the R/T inthe UK is so strict and fools won't be tollerated', I found this to be absolute shi**. I have heard worse R/T in the UK than I have in the states. As for not making a call to leave the frequency int he states, you are a very naughty boy because you should, unless you are on VFR/IFR flight following in which case the controller will dump you when they are ready.
As for airspace i think this is the biggest area for concern as the UK has more layers is more compact and has a million and one MATZ. But it is no sweat, just make sure you call them way in advanced and don't enter the airspace without permission, it is that simple. My perosnal opinion is people look at airspace on the map and say "bugger i will have to go around that" not true. If you dont want to mess about getting permission you could always take the option to go under the airspace or over it (if the options exist). So alot of the CTA's and TMA's are not an issue.
As far as costs go as I mention there are some schools in the states that soak all the ancillary costs except flights to and from the states, so if you choose right you erradicate that issue.
As for legal rights and poor treatment, it is pretty much the same in the US as in the UK. if you are going to get screwed you are going to get screwed. At least in the US there is not the stiff upper lip with regards to GA as there is in the UK.
I have flown with lots of UK and US trained pilots and tend to find the US trained pilots to be a bit more relaxed and less worried about busting airspace and more able to fly more than 10 miles without having to refer to a map every 20 seconds.
Alot of this US UK arrgument is scare mongering in both directions.
CAP413 is riddled with errors if you read it carefully, all be it continuity errors to which the average student will become confuesed with.
As for US R/T I dont think it is anymore lax than in the UK. When i came back from the states I was bricking it because everyone was saying "Oh the R/T inthe UK is so strict and fools won't be tollerated', I found this to be absolute shi**. I have heard worse R/T in the UK than I have in the states. As for not making a call to leave the frequency int he states, you are a very naughty boy because you should, unless you are on VFR/IFR flight following in which case the controller will dump you when they are ready.
As for airspace i think this is the biggest area for concern as the UK has more layers is more compact and has a million and one MATZ. But it is no sweat, just make sure you call them way in advanced and don't enter the airspace without permission, it is that simple. My perosnal opinion is people look at airspace on the map and say "bugger i will have to go around that" not true. If you dont want to mess about getting permission you could always take the option to go under the airspace or over it (if the options exist). So alot of the CTA's and TMA's are not an issue.
As far as costs go as I mention there are some schools in the states that soak all the ancillary costs except flights to and from the states, so if you choose right you erradicate that issue.
As for legal rights and poor treatment, it is pretty much the same in the US as in the UK. if you are going to get screwed you are going to get screwed. At least in the US there is not the stiff upper lip with regards to GA as there is in the UK.
I have flown with lots of UK and US trained pilots and tend to find the US trained pilots to be a bit more relaxed and less worried about busting airspace and more able to fly more than 10 miles without having to refer to a map every 20 seconds.
Alot of this US UK arrgument is scare mongering in both directions.
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A lot of this argument comes from those who have done it one way not wanting to be seen to be second rate. The FAA route people do seem to bang on in a most evangelical way about the wonders off getting trained in the US/FAA ticket.
There are a lot of advantages to going to the states and flying, the freedom, variety and fun are a big incentive. Don't be fooled by the attractive prices, you still have to do the TSA thing which involves a day in London, flights and food. It is posible to do a PPL in the UK for 5 grand as it is in the US. People will no doubt argue and run this thread at a tangent that you have to be super human to pass in 45hrs and you have to allow more. Well the same goes for being in the USA but you don't generally have the luxury of extending your holiday so still have to pay when you come home. It ends up as 6 of one and half dozen of the other.
I love flying in the US and have many hundreds of hours touring around the country. I have flown a Piper Turboprop coast to coast with a friend of mine for little more than the cost of renting a twin in the UK.
Also the point of flying IMHO is to be able to travel and explore and the US gives you that opportunity.
But I am a firm believer in supporting the UK training industry and if you look around you will find some first class establishments out there who will give you value for money.
If I look at my local area we have 3 clubs with 30 mins of me, Leicester Aero Club, my friend just did his PPL there over the last 5 months and passed in 45:20 and paid UNDER £5k. First class Instructors and a good fleet and a CLUB not a school. We have NSF at Sibson a first rate outfit with a nice fleet and good Instructors. More expensive than a club as they have to try and make a profit but well run. Connington again a school rather than a club, good fleet, good instructors and school prices.
I have used all of these many times and can highly recommend them and all will give you a PPL around the £5k ish mark.
It's all well and good for those to deride the UK training scene and send everyone to the USA. But if the UK schools are not supported they go to the wall and what happens to GA in the UK then? We won't see the Americans running to our aid on that one.....
Not everyone can afford there own aircraft or share and clubs allow people to keep flying with the commitment of only in the flight in hand to meet.
There are a lot of advantages to going to the states and flying, the freedom, variety and fun are a big incentive. Don't be fooled by the attractive prices, you still have to do the TSA thing which involves a day in London, flights and food. It is posible to do a PPL in the UK for 5 grand as it is in the US. People will no doubt argue and run this thread at a tangent that you have to be super human to pass in 45hrs and you have to allow more. Well the same goes for being in the USA but you don't generally have the luxury of extending your holiday so still have to pay when you come home. It ends up as 6 of one and half dozen of the other.
I love flying in the US and have many hundreds of hours touring around the country. I have flown a Piper Turboprop coast to coast with a friend of mine for little more than the cost of renting a twin in the UK.
Also the point of flying IMHO is to be able to travel and explore and the US gives you that opportunity.
But I am a firm believer in supporting the UK training industry and if you look around you will find some first class establishments out there who will give you value for money.
If I look at my local area we have 3 clubs with 30 mins of me, Leicester Aero Club, my friend just did his PPL there over the last 5 months and passed in 45:20 and paid UNDER £5k. First class Instructors and a good fleet and a CLUB not a school. We have NSF at Sibson a first rate outfit with a nice fleet and good Instructors. More expensive than a club as they have to try and make a profit but well run. Connington again a school rather than a club, good fleet, good instructors and school prices.
I have used all of these many times and can highly recommend them and all will give you a PPL around the £5k ish mark.
It's all well and good for those to deride the UK training scene and send everyone to the USA. But if the UK schools are not supported they go to the wall and what happens to GA in the UK then? We won't see the Americans running to our aid on that one.....
Not everyone can afford there own aircraft or share and clubs allow people to keep flying with the commitment of only in the flight in hand to meet.
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You are right when it comes to supporting UK GA, there certainly is not enough of it going on.
I am only trying to point out there i snot much in it as far as trainin gis concerened when choosing between the US and the UK. On average the major difference is cost. Also on average I think it is not very easy to find a UK school that will dedicate a few weeks soldi to a student to cram in the course (weather permitting). Maybe this is something that UK schools should look at.
As far as local clubs go I think it is imperative to join a local club or two, even if you do have your own A/C or share. And also ensure you support that club at funcions and events.
Something certainly needs to happen to UK GA to make it appealing and viable again as right now I think it is a crumbling beast.
You are right when it comes to supporting UK GA, there certainly is not enough of it going on.
I am only trying to point out there i snot much in it as far as trainin gis concerened when choosing between the US and the UK. On average the major difference is cost. Also on average I think it is not very easy to find a UK school that will dedicate a few weeks soldi to a student to cram in the course (weather permitting). Maybe this is something that UK schools should look at.
As far as local clubs go I think it is imperative to join a local club or two, even if you do have your own A/C or share. And also ensure you support that club at funcions and events.
Something certainly needs to happen to UK GA to make it appealing and viable again as right now I think it is a crumbling beast.
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I hold a UK PPL, night IMC, all done in the UK and it took about 18 months in total.
I also hold an FAA standalone PPL, IR and hopefully soon a CPL, all done in the UK except the IR which was done in the USA.
And I've done the Visa/TSA process, have even written up detailed notes on the whole thing (for the benefit of other pilots), so I do know a bit about it...
People who try to compare are never going to compare like for like.
IMHO it is almost irrelevant whether you train in the USA or the UK. What matters is whether and how you can fit the training into your life.
If you go to the US then you will be living eating and breating aviation for four solid weeks. Unless you are sub-capable, you will do it in that time and you will reach a good standard of basic flying. In Arizona the weather is guaranteed (but you can't do a JAA PPL there; the nearest is southern California) so not much chance of a cancellation. Florida isn't great but they usually work around the afternoon weather.
If you do it in the UK by checking into a B&B for four weeks then you will also do it in four weeks - weather permitting. Realistically, unless you pick the Autumn months, it will take 6 weeks. But that assumes a well organised school; most UK schools don't have the organisation of the big US ones. But almost nobody does this - people choose the UK option because they can slot the training into their lifestyle and/or income stream. And they take a year as a result, spending probably an average of £8000.
I don't think there is any difference in the end result. From the USA, you come out a good pilot and you have to learn a bit of UK radio calls. From the UK, you should also come out a good pilot but you have reached this point a year later and with about £3000 extra spent. OTOH, being able to fit training into one's life/job can be priceless, which is why I have done some of my FAA training in the UK, even though it is a massive hassle and a huge expense.
There are stories of US trained pilots who came back not knowing that in Europe they need an explicit clearance through Class D, etc. This level of dumbness is just about possible but you will find it everywhere. The other day I heard an ATCO patiently explaining to somebody (G-reg) which direction EAST is in; the pilot kept turning WEST towards some CAS.
When my 11 year old son is old enough to log training (14) I will find him an FAA CFI to log all the possible hours, and at 16 he can formalise it by going to the States and flying the remaining mandatory hours over a couple of weeks. This will be a rather extreme example of somebody with (by then) hundreds of hours of unlogged time, and there would be no point in hanging around a UK school in UK weather.
Much is made of the need to fly in UK weather. For goodness sake, a PPL is supposed to fly under VFR
You aren't supposed to fly in cloud, in the UK, in the USA, or anywhere else. If you can't plan a flight so as to remain VMC, you have to scrap it. That's VFR... and yes it's rather limiting. VMC in the UK is every bit as good as VMC in Arizona.
So, I don't think there is a relevant difference in the standard. It's horses for courses.
The biggest challenge seems to be hanging in there post-PPL. Most don't - all but one of the people I met when training 7 years ago have (AFAIK) given up long ago, and most disappeared almost immediately. But that's another story.
I also hold an FAA standalone PPL, IR and hopefully soon a CPL, all done in the UK except the IR which was done in the USA.
And I've done the Visa/TSA process, have even written up detailed notes on the whole thing (for the benefit of other pilots), so I do know a bit about it...
People who try to compare are never going to compare like for like.
IMHO it is almost irrelevant whether you train in the USA or the UK. What matters is whether and how you can fit the training into your life.
If you go to the US then you will be living eating and breating aviation for four solid weeks. Unless you are sub-capable, you will do it in that time and you will reach a good standard of basic flying. In Arizona the weather is guaranteed (but you can't do a JAA PPL there; the nearest is southern California) so not much chance of a cancellation. Florida isn't great but they usually work around the afternoon weather.
If you do it in the UK by checking into a B&B for four weeks then you will also do it in four weeks - weather permitting. Realistically, unless you pick the Autumn months, it will take 6 weeks. But that assumes a well organised school; most UK schools don't have the organisation of the big US ones. But almost nobody does this - people choose the UK option because they can slot the training into their lifestyle and/or income stream. And they take a year as a result, spending probably an average of £8000.
I don't think there is any difference in the end result. From the USA, you come out a good pilot and you have to learn a bit of UK radio calls. From the UK, you should also come out a good pilot but you have reached this point a year later and with about £3000 extra spent. OTOH, being able to fit training into one's life/job can be priceless, which is why I have done some of my FAA training in the UK, even though it is a massive hassle and a huge expense.
There are stories of US trained pilots who came back not knowing that in Europe they need an explicit clearance through Class D, etc. This level of dumbness is just about possible but you will find it everywhere. The other day I heard an ATCO patiently explaining to somebody (G-reg) which direction EAST is in; the pilot kept turning WEST towards some CAS.
When my 11 year old son is old enough to log training (14) I will find him an FAA CFI to log all the possible hours, and at 16 he can formalise it by going to the States and flying the remaining mandatory hours over a couple of weeks. This will be a rather extreme example of somebody with (by then) hundreds of hours of unlogged time, and there would be no point in hanging around a UK school in UK weather.
Much is made of the need to fly in UK weather. For goodness sake, a PPL is supposed to fly under VFR
You aren't supposed to fly in cloud, in the UK, in the USA, or anywhere else. If you can't plan a flight so as to remain VMC, you have to scrap it. That's VFR... and yes it's rather limiting. VMC in the UK is every bit as good as VMC in Arizona.So, I don't think there is a relevant difference in the standard. It's horses for courses.
The biggest challenge seems to be hanging in there post-PPL. Most don't - all but one of the people I met when training 7 years ago have (AFAIK) given up long ago, and most disappeared almost immediately. But that's another story.
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I'm with IO here - its a personal choice - but keeping current in the UK is the problem regardless where you got the licence! I've not been able to fly for the last 4 weeks due to constant low cloud bases and light drizzle.
For me, I did around 7 hours in the UK, then I went to OBA - for a number of reasons.
i) It was cheaper - I'm based in Aberdeen - instruction here is near enough £180 per hour + £17 per landing/touch and go - it's almost impossible to do circuit training here as ATC won't allow it during busy times, and you end up orbiting for 20 mins waiting for choppers/commercial traffic, and the landing fee applied whether you full stop, or t&g. - Obviously - this is dependant on where you'll train, but for me it costed out at £12k for completion - I spent a total of £5.5k at OBA all in.
ii) The consolidated 4 weeks suited me better personally - I know people who have been training for 18 months and still not got the licence. That's not for me - I benefited from a more structured and regular training environment and I really found that flying every day for 4/5 weeks you really see great improvements to your flying - no 20 mins getting your air legs in as when I was training in the UK. Also, hanging round the club house waiting for weather to improve is boring as sin - especially at a smaller and quieter club.
The arguments about standards of flying etc are pointless - YOU are the student, ensure that YOU fly in a safe, competent and professional manner. Students from both sides of the pond can develop lax or bad habits and to be perfectly honest, a low hours PPL is much more likely to be less complacent than someone who's been flying for years in a group out of a farm strip.
The R/T is not sufficiently different (position & hold/line up and wait - not rocket science - Flight Following/FIS/RIS/RAS - not difficult) - the very very very busy Daytona/Orlando airspace prepared me perfectly for operating out of a resonably busy ATZ, and I've had no problems on my return. I've joined a group who have been perfectly happy with my flying, and my flying has been described as very professional by an instructor who was surprised i wasn't going to do the CPL.
The point is that it's up to you to get the most out of it. It's also up to you once you've got the licence to continue to learn, and battle the UK weather to keep current.
Whatever you decide - it's your decision - DONT base it soley on opinions from relatively anonymous forums either way. Also remember that people tend to complain about bad service, but very few people offer opinions on good service!
For me, I did around 7 hours in the UK, then I went to OBA - for a number of reasons.
i) It was cheaper - I'm based in Aberdeen - instruction here is near enough £180 per hour + £17 per landing/touch and go - it's almost impossible to do circuit training here as ATC won't allow it during busy times, and you end up orbiting for 20 mins waiting for choppers/commercial traffic, and the landing fee applied whether you full stop, or t&g. - Obviously - this is dependant on where you'll train, but for me it costed out at £12k for completion - I spent a total of £5.5k at OBA all in.
ii) The consolidated 4 weeks suited me better personally - I know people who have been training for 18 months and still not got the licence. That's not for me - I benefited from a more structured and regular training environment and I really found that flying every day for 4/5 weeks you really see great improvements to your flying - no 20 mins getting your air legs in as when I was training in the UK. Also, hanging round the club house waiting for weather to improve is boring as sin - especially at a smaller and quieter club.
The arguments about standards of flying etc are pointless - YOU are the student, ensure that YOU fly in a safe, competent and professional manner. Students from both sides of the pond can develop lax or bad habits and to be perfectly honest, a low hours PPL is much more likely to be less complacent than someone who's been flying for years in a group out of a farm strip.
The R/T is not sufficiently different (position & hold/line up and wait - not rocket science - Flight Following/FIS/RIS/RAS - not difficult) - the very very very busy Daytona/Orlando airspace prepared me perfectly for operating out of a resonably busy ATZ, and I've had no problems on my return. I've joined a group who have been perfectly happy with my flying, and my flying has been described as very professional by an instructor who was surprised i wasn't going to do the CPL.
The point is that it's up to you to get the most out of it. It's also up to you once you've got the licence to continue to learn, and battle the UK weather to keep current.
Whatever you decide - it's your decision - DONT base it soley on opinions from relatively anonymous forums either way. Also remember that people tend to complain about bad service, but very few people offer opinions on good service!
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Gcolyer I wasn't trying to invoke a debate on practices in the UK vs practices in the US so sorry if my post had that tone.
But I certainly stand by my points, the R/T I witnessed in Florida was shocking, Bizjets on final having discussions with the ATCO about the weather in Barbados when there are 4 training a/c in the circuit, expressions that would have a better place in hollywood movies. I was particually amused by "I got 2366 on the box buddy" from a departing IFR flight referring to his transponder.
You can leave frequencies without reporting in certain situations, for eg. departing a controlled Class D aerodrome VFR.
I agree that with good planning you can navigate through the various airspaces in the UK, but unfortunately the standards of pilots vary massively and MATZ/airspace busts were a common cause of CPL test failures when I was doing my CPL.
As for legal rights, you simply have no recourse with a US school. You are on a visa which they can cancel at any time. If you think you have been unfairly, tough sh*t. You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK.
Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed hour building in the US and I enjoyed the lifestyle, and the US's attitude to GA flying is excellent, but from personal experience (which I admit is limited, I am a low hour pilot), my friends who took their PPL's in the US are far less confident and ended up needing further training when they returned to the UK.
But I certainly stand by my points, the R/T I witnessed in Florida was shocking, Bizjets on final having discussions with the ATCO about the weather in Barbados when there are 4 training a/c in the circuit, expressions that would have a better place in hollywood movies. I was particually amused by "I got 2366 on the box buddy" from a departing IFR flight referring to his transponder.
You can leave frequencies without reporting in certain situations, for eg. departing a controlled Class D aerodrome VFR.
I agree that with good planning you can navigate through the various airspaces in the UK, but unfortunately the standards of pilots vary massively and MATZ/airspace busts were a common cause of CPL test failures when I was doing my CPL.
As for legal rights, you simply have no recourse with a US school. You are on a visa which they can cancel at any time. If you think you have been unfairly, tough sh*t. You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK.
Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed hour building in the US and I enjoyed the lifestyle, and the US's attitude to GA flying is excellent, but from personal experience (which I admit is limited, I am a low hour pilot), my friends who took their PPL's in the US are far less confident and ended up needing further training when they returned to the UK.
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You actually raise a good point regarding american pilots and their R/T. Some of them do have a shockling relaxed tone as in "I have 2266 on the box"
However I have never heard a British/JAA student being lax on the R/T over there. Other than one yorkshire lad having a go at Daytona approach about a squawk code stating "I am squawking XXXX, what yer on about"
I tell you who I found to be prolific offenders of poor R/T and airmanship are the Embry Riddle students. They appeared to be a law un to themselves and have a very cavalier attitude. Tin hat on.
You actually raise a good point regarding american pilots and their R/T. Some of them do have a shockling relaxed tone as in "I have 2266 on the box"
However I have never heard a British/JAA student being lax on the R/T over there. Other than one yorkshire lad having a go at Daytona approach about a squawk code stating "I am squawking XXXX, what yer on about"
I tell you who I found to be prolific offenders of poor R/T and airmanship are the Embry Riddle students. They appeared to be a law un to themselves and have a very cavalier attitude. Tin hat on.
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They also seemed to be incapable of flying a tight circuit at Ormond which pissed the controllers off no end - having 5 cessnas on huge extended downwinds as an embry twin was half way to Palatka on final was a real pest - but I digress
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I am surpirsed to hear that. When I was at OBA the circuits were very tight. For instance if you were departing from 35 you had to start cross wind either before the caravan or 500feet (which ever came first) stay within the interstate on downwind and start base no further down than the bend in the river certainly not at Granada.
Ken was particularly hot on the subject. My instructor (Brian, who left when i left) was very anal on tight circuits every where I went, and PFL crazy! (every feckin flight he would pull the power!).
I always found the trouble was with very new students (pre dual circuit students) or visiting pilots.
Does OBA have radar now? it was the big discussion when I was there.
I am surpirsed to hear that. When I was at OBA the circuits were very tight. For instance if you were departing from 35 you had to start cross wind either before the caravan or 500feet (which ever came first) stay within the interstate on downwind and start base no further down than the bend in the river certainly not at Granada.
Ken was particularly hot on the subject. My instructor (Brian, who left when i left) was very anal on tight circuits every where I went, and PFL crazy! (every feckin flight he would pull the power!).
I always found the trouble was with very new students (pre dual circuit students) or visiting pilots.
Does OBA have radar now? it was the big discussion when I was there.
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As for legal rights, you simply have no recourse with a US school. You are on a visa which they can cancel at any time. If you think you have been unfairly, tough sh*t. You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK.
I paid by credit card, assuming that in case of problems I would be able to get support from the credit card company and/or my money partially back. I've had no problems at OFT so I can't testify as to whether this assumption was true or not.
As for "cancelling your visa", that's total bull. The visa is issued by the INS (part of the State Department) on your request and cannot be cancelled by the flight school. It can only be cancelled by the INS itself and you have to get yourself into some serious trouble before that happens. Before issuing the M-1 (temporary student) visa, the INS will check whether you are *really* coming to the US for (flight) training, so they need a piece of paper from a (flight) school saying that you indeed enrolled with them. But if you fall out with that school, it *is* possible to have your visa transferred to another school, although it probably requires a visit to the INS, some paperwork and some admin fees. The same goes for TSA clearance.
I did a big write-up of everything related to getting a JAA PPL in the US here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278995
Last edited by BackPacker; 14th Jun 2007 at 12:21. Reason: Formatting
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You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK
You can forget this "legal action" business.
If a school goes under (which the UK ones do regularly) you will lose your money. Litigation won't get it back because you will rank as an unsecured creditor, behind the chargeholders In 30 years of business I have not yet seen a dividend paid to unsec creds where there was a chargeholder owed money.
If you are in the USA and are training with a school and you don't like them, you have a problem because the school's name is printed in the Visa which is stuck in your passport. There is supposed to be a process for getting this changed but it's not something you want to do in a hurry.
You won't have time to sue a school in the US. And if you did, you will be finished anyway because the next school won't take you (they don't want to be the next in line for the treatment).
You will have time to sue a school in the UK, but there isn't any point if you want to carry on flying afterwards because you will be slagged off all over the said airport and nobody will touch you with a bargepole.
You can forget this "legal action" business.
If a school goes under (which the UK ones do regularly) you will lose your money. Litigation won't get it back because you will rank as an unsecured creditor, behind the chargeholders
In 30 years of business I have not yet seen a dividend paid to unsec creds where there was a chargeholder owed money.If you are in the USA and are training with a school and you don't like them, you have a problem because the school's name is printed in the Visa which is stuck in your passport. There is supposed to be a process for getting this changed but it's not something you want to do in a hurry.
You won't have time to sue a school in the US. And if you did, you will be finished anyway because the next school won't take you (they don't want to be the next in line for the treatment).
You will have time to sue a school in the UK, but there isn't any point if you want to carry on flying afterwards because you will be slagged off all over the said airport and nobody will touch you with a bargepole.
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I am surpirsed to hear that. When I was at OBA the circuits were very tight.
Yep - they're supposed to be, but the Embry ME boys would come in for 4/5 circuits and fly wide ones which made the 4/5 company cessnas in the circuit have to extend until they got the hint and legged it. Happened 4 or 5 times I was out circuit bashing, at one point the tower even denied them the T&G and made them full stop - cleared them for an explicitly "tight" circuit (in non CAP413 terms
)and they headed off to Flagler instead (as was I but they were much tighter in the Flagler circuit). Happy days!
