Response to "Please pass your message"
Pompey till I die
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Response to "Please pass your message"
Am just perusing my CAP413 and enjoying what has turned out to be a magnificent read.
I am slightly confused by the response to "please pass your message" though ?
Chapter 3 - page 6 - 1.5.3
We are then treated to a very good pilot who rattles off this information with ease.
This guy sounds like he knows what he's doing, he almost definately gets the chicks at parties.
However, "1.6 Position reporting" on the next page states
Some hot shot top gunner then gives us an example
Suddenly our Cessna pilot has become unstuck, he hasn't reported his position using the position reporting. Whilst I understand he's passed some of the information, he is missing some stuff out. Surely it should be:
Which is confusing because CAP413 seems to contradict itself ?
Any advice or input greatly received. PLEASE don't tell me what happens at the end of the book though, I can feel the suspense building and don't want to ruin it. Also does anybody know if they plan to do a film version ? I actually thought it would transfer quite well to the west end as a musical.
I am slightly confused by the response to "please pass your message" though ?
Chapter 3 - page 6 - 1.5.3
When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury, altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, VFR tracking to Wells
However, "1.6 Position reporting" on the next page states
Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
Fastair 345 Wicken 47 FL280 Marlow 57
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury (time), altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, (next destination) (ETA @ destination) VFR tracking to Wells
Any advice or input greatly received. PLEASE don't tell me what happens at the end of the book though, I can feel the suspense building and don't want to ruin it. Also does anybody know if they plan to do a film version ? I actually thought it would transfer quite well to the west end as a musical.
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It's about keeping radio time to a minimum and avoiding unnecessary information. The "position" in the "pass your message" reply is not a complete position report. No need to specify the time, the ATS unit knows what the current time is. She will have a general idea of your routing by knowing your destination; if you're planning something a little unusual it doesn't hurt to mention your next turning point but if she needs to know, she'll ask.
Most of that position reporting stuff is intended for things like long oceanic or desert flights where your information may need to be relayed by an airliner or something, and it would be important to know what time the original message was sent and when the next one can be expected.
Most of that position reporting stuff is intended for things like long oceanic or desert flights where your information may need to be relayed by an airliner or something, and it would be important to know what time the original message was sent and when the next one can be expected.
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Not sure what your confused about? The position report example given is correct? Remember CAP413 is the complete RT manual and caters for people flying things other the cessnas hehe.
In the example given, Fastair 345 is the a/c identifier, you don't need to say the type again as the controller will already have this information from when you joined his freq (from the response to pass your message) He then states his position, Wicken, and the time, 47. His level in this case is FL280, and his next point is Marlow at 57. It is all very brief to save time on what is usually a bust freq.
In your example of what you think you need to say there is a lot of unimportant info. Like I said you don't need to say Cessna as the controller already knows this, you don't need to say where you or from or going as the controller already knows this too. You do need to give your position, the current time and your altitude. then give your next position expected and the eta for it. NOT the eta for your destination, unless that is the next point you will report.
Does that make sense? Remember a position report is just an update to the controller of where you are.
In the example given, Fastair 345 is the a/c identifier, you don't need to say the type again as the controller will already have this information from when you joined his freq (from the response to pass your message) He then states his position, Wicken, and the time, 47. His level in this case is FL280, and his next point is Marlow at 57. It is all very brief to save time on what is usually a bust freq.
In your example of what you think you need to say there is a lot of unimportant info. Like I said you don't need to say Cessna as the controller already knows this, you don't need to say where you or from or going as the controller already knows this too. You do need to give your position, the current time and your altitude. then give your next position expected and the eta for it. NOT the eta for your destination, unless that is the next point you will report.
Does that make sense? Remember a position report is just an update to the controller of where you are.
Pompey till I die
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In your example of what you think you need to say there is a lot of unimportant info. Like I said you don't need to say Cessna as the controller already knows this, you don't need to say where you or from or going as the controller already knows this too. You do need to give your position, the current time and your altitude. then give your next position expected and the eta for it. NOT the eta for your destination, unless that is the next point you will report.
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury (time), altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, (next destination) (ETA @ destination) VFR tracking to Wells
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury, altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, VFR tracking to Wells
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Paul,
Basically in the first one the pilot is simply stating his current position, as part of his message.
The second items is not stating his position, but instead giving a 'position report' which has a very specific format.
The first is a piece of info (current position), the second is a particular type of report (a position report).
I hope that helps!
dp
Basically in the first one the pilot is simply stating his current position, as part of his message.
The second items is not stating his position, but instead giving a 'position report' which has a very specific format.
The first is a piece of info (current position), the second is a particular type of report (a position report).
I hope that helps!
dp
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I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report". Which I'm guess is why the "postion report" follows directly after the "pass your message" response in CAP413 ?
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The best bet is just to accept that the two statements are totally separate.
Yes the pass your message includes a position report, for the obvious reasons, it includes more information as it is the first contact with the controller.
Once this has been done the subsequent position reports can be extremely brief, to save air-time.
Yes the pass your message includes a position report, for the obvious reasons, it includes more information as it is the first contact with the controller.
Once this has been done the subsequent position reports can be extremely brief, to save air-time.
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pompeypaul says
I don`t think it does.. it just requires you to state your position. eg overhead x or 2 miles S of Y.
dublinpilot sums it up quite nicely
I accept pompeypauls view that this could be interpreted the other way, but don`t believe the full position report is required either in letter or spirit.
G-CD even has a "Roger, Wilco" moment en route to Wells.
In my view CAP413 is an imperfect but rapidly improving manual and is regularly revised nowadays. Users are invited to contact the editor with questions and comments.
There is almost a case for a CAP413-VFR and CAP413-IFR as this would be much more digestible..
I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report".
dublinpilot sums it up quite nicely
The first is a piece of info (current position), the second is a particular type of report (a position report).
G-CD even has a "Roger, Wilco" moment en route to Wells.
In my view CAP413 is an imperfect but rapidly improving manual and is regularly revised nowadays. Users are invited to contact the editor with questions and comments.
There is almost a case for a CAP413-VFR and CAP413-IFR as this would be much more digestible..
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PP,
No - the pass your message response asks for your "Present Position" ie where you are now, so there's no need to include the time. Its not a full "Position report". If the controller wants further information then he'll ask for it.
Brooklands
I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report"
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PP, what you're confused about is the two types of position reports.
The first type, as part of the "pass your message" message is where you are *at the time you're transmitting*. Eg. 15 miles south of whatever. No need to specify time (yet) but other details are important (e.g. route). If you happened to be put on "standby" when 15 miles south, but only told to pass your message a minute later, you simply report "13 miles south of whatever" instead. You are correct in the sense that, if required, you can put in a next point and an ETA for that point. Eg. when requesting a MATZ transition, it would help if you give the VRP where you'll be entering, and an ETA for that VRP.
The second type is a position report which is prompted by an earlier "report position at xxx". In this case the controller wants to know exactly when you were above that reporting point, and your eta to the next reporting point, for traffic sequencing purposes or as part of its "alerting service" role. But if you happen to be overhead xxx but someone is blocking the frequency, you still need to report when you were overhead. So it includes the time.
BTW I don't know if it's legal, but if the frequency is empty when I'm overhead the position report point, I just report my position "G-CD overhead Ockham expect Dettling 47". I was also once asked to give my ETA for the waypoint after the next. First time I ever told ATC to standby.
Oh, and does CAP413 describe the situation where ATC passes your message to you instead of the other way around? Here's what happened yesterday: I was practicing steep turns, stalls etc in the Rotterdam ATZ (class E) at 3000 feet. In contact with Rotterdam Approach, on a discrete squawk. When I was finished, the following happened:
"Approach, PXX finished playing, returning to Rotterdam via Hotel."
"PXX roger report passing 2000"
"Wilco 2000 PXX"
"PXX passing 2000"
"Roger contact tower 118.2"
"118.2 PXX"
"Rotterdam Tower, PH-XXX" (Just making contact and mentally preparing to pass my message...)
"PXX, Rotterdam Tower. Cleared Hotel arrival 1500 feet report Whiskey. Weather is T, QNH 1008"
...Stunned silence for a few seconds... That's supposed to be *my* line, isn't it?
"Hotel arrival 1500 feet, wilco Whiskey. Information T received, QHN 1008, PXX"
Gotta love these guys and girls...
The first type, as part of the "pass your message" message is where you are *at the time you're transmitting*. Eg. 15 miles south of whatever. No need to specify time (yet) but other details are important (e.g. route). If you happened to be put on "standby" when 15 miles south, but only told to pass your message a minute later, you simply report "13 miles south of whatever" instead. You are correct in the sense that, if required, you can put in a next point and an ETA for that point. Eg. when requesting a MATZ transition, it would help if you give the VRP where you'll be entering, and an ETA for that VRP.
The second type is a position report which is prompted by an earlier "report position at xxx". In this case the controller wants to know exactly when you were above that reporting point, and your eta to the next reporting point, for traffic sequencing purposes or as part of its "alerting service" role. But if you happen to be overhead xxx but someone is blocking the frequency, you still need to report when you were overhead. So it includes the time.
BTW I don't know if it's legal, but if the frequency is empty when I'm overhead the position report point, I just report my position "G-CD overhead Ockham expect Dettling 47". I was also once asked to give my ETA for the waypoint after the next. First time I ever told ATC to standby.
Oh, and does CAP413 describe the situation where ATC passes your message to you instead of the other way around? Here's what happened yesterday: I was practicing steep turns, stalls etc in the Rotterdam ATZ (class E) at 3000 feet. In contact with Rotterdam Approach, on a discrete squawk. When I was finished, the following happened:
"Approach, PXX finished playing, returning to Rotterdam via Hotel."
"PXX roger report passing 2000"
"Wilco 2000 PXX"
"PXX passing 2000"
"Roger contact tower 118.2"
"118.2 PXX"
"Rotterdam Tower, PH-XXX" (Just making contact and mentally preparing to pass my message...)
"PXX, Rotterdam Tower. Cleared Hotel arrival 1500 feet report Whiskey. Weather is T, QNH 1008"
...Stunned silence for a few seconds... That's supposed to be *my* line, isn't it?
"Hotel arrival 1500 feet, wilco Whiskey. Information T received, QHN 1008, PXX"
Gotta love these guys and girls...
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BackPacker - what exactly are you surprised by? Just a fairly standard joining clearance at a proper towered airfield who already have your details. Or are you too familiar with UK uncontrolled airfields or freecalling people en route for LARS/similar?
HenryH - love your generic use of "she" for ATC!
Back to the original point - as has already been said, passing your position on an initial call is not a "position report" per se; the latter refers to a procedure more common in IFR flight with mandatory reporting points or reports as requested by ATC.
And please, everyone, keep those initial calls as short as possible (while still including information that is ACTUALLY NECESSARY), and avoid cluttering up a frequency for ages telling everyone what you had for breakfast. If Air Tragic have a burning desire to know they'll ask you. Keep it short, clear, and professional!
HenryH - love your generic use of "she" for ATC!
Back to the original point - as has already been said, passing your position on an initial call is not a "position report" per se; the latter refers to a procedure more common in IFR flight with mandatory reporting points or reports as requested by ATC.
And please, everyone, keep those initial calls as short as possible (while still including information that is ACTUALLY NECESSARY), and avoid cluttering up a frequency for ages telling everyone what you had for breakfast. If Air Tragic have a burning desire to know they'll ask you. Keep it short, clear, and professional!
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Amazingly enough, controllers still understand the words you're saying should they not happen to be perfect, formulaic CAP413.
As said already, two key points - they want to know who you are, where you are, where you're going and what you want. And if they want to know something you haven't told them, they'll ask for it. It's just another human being on the other end of the line!
As said already, two key points - they want to know who you are, where you are, where you're going and what you want. And if they want to know something you haven't told them, they'll ask for it. It's just another human being on the other end of the line!
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So, what if a MATS voice says "Report passing Bigtown"?
Upon passing said position, should our hero say "G-IT passing Bigtown"
Or launch into an Airep? *G-IT passing Bigtown in a gayley coloured Cessna at an altitude of 2495 feet QNH 1009 time 23 estimating Smallville 30 mins"
Sir George Cayley
Upon passing said position, should our hero say "G-IT passing Bigtown"
Or launch into an Airep? *G-IT passing Bigtown in a gayley coloured Cessna at an altitude of 2495 feet QNH 1009 time 23 estimating Smallville 30 mins"
Sir George Cayley
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Can a real ATCO confirm whether (VFR FIS context) ATC really want to know the ETA to some WP?
I know that if you call up London Info and sound anything vaguely resembling a training flight, they will ask for the ETA to each WP, but I would assume they do that because the UK PPL training business gets every student to call up London Info.
I reckon that if you are flying from say CPT to MID i.e. past Farnborough on a nice Sunday, the last thing they want to know about is your ETA to some village. Do they really keep track of everybody with an FIS?
Especially if a pilot laboriously reads off half the local village names.
I fly through there often and all I do is tell them my dep, dest, type, the immediately relevant part of my route (always using VOR waypoints), altitude, 7000, VFR (or IFR if in cloud) and they happily leave me alone, giving me RIS or, if really busy, FIS.
I know that if you call up London Info and sound anything vaguely resembling a training flight, they will ask for the ETA to each WP, but I would assume they do that because the UK PPL training business gets every student to call up London Info.
I reckon that if you are flying from say CPT to MID i.e. past Farnborough on a nice Sunday, the last thing they want to know about is your ETA to some village. Do they really keep track of everybody with an FIS?
Especially if a pilot laboriously reads off half the local village names.
I fly through there often and all I do is tell them my dep, dest, type, the immediately relevant part of my route (always using VOR waypoints), altitude, 7000, VFR (or IFR if in cloud) and they happily leave me alone, giving me RIS or, if really busy, FIS.
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Can a real ATCO confirm whether (VFR FIS context) ATC really want to know the ETA to some WP?
Not interested in ETA's, not interested in headings.
Backpacker - if we know who you are, and we know what you want, then we're going to save R/T time by giving you that without the "pass your message" way of doing it. It's called being concise and pro-active.
Why do you think ATC is a game where you often think a few moves ahead
PP
Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:
and
See?
Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:
When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA