Response to "Please pass your message"
As a PPL'er who is yet to pass my skill test, I have a thought or two on this. 
Stay awake at the back please! 
When I contact a Radar ATC or Information service I give them the information that PompeyPaul first mentions. I also give them an estimate to my next waypoint relevant to them!
For example if I'm heading southeast through Southend RADAR's coverage, when I first 'pass my message' on joining the frequency I will give my estimate for overhead the Thames southbound because that's the normal point at which they ask us to report before changing frequency to Rochester INFORMATION.
In my humble opinion, the second example PompeyPaul gives is more relevant to those who have filed flightplans. In those situations there is no need to give as much information because that information is on the flightplan. The ATC is interested in whether they are where they should be and 'on-time', hence the need to give a more precise 'time'.
The pilot who arrives unexpectedly on a frequency without a Flightplan will initially have to fill in the ATC's gaps of knowledge by giving the full flight information, but when he reports subsequent positions he'll be be able to give the same brief information as the chap with the flightplan.
Perhaps I'm wrong with my interpretation, but it seems to make sense.
Stay awake at the back please! When I contact a Radar ATC or Information service I give them the information that PompeyPaul first mentions. I also give them an estimate to my next waypoint relevant to them!
For example if I'm heading southeast through Southend RADAR's coverage, when I first 'pass my message' on joining the frequency I will give my estimate for overhead the Thames southbound because that's the normal point at which they ask us to report before changing frequency to Rochester INFORMATION.
In my humble opinion, the second example PompeyPaul gives is more relevant to those who have filed flightplans. In those situations there is no need to give as much information because that information is on the flightplan. The ATC is interested in whether they are where they should be and 'on-time', hence the need to give a more precise 'time'.
The pilot who arrives unexpectedly on a frequency without a Flightplan will initially have to fill in the ATC's gaps of knowledge by giving the full flight information, but when he reports subsequent positions he'll be be able to give the same brief information as the chap with the flightplan.
Perhaps I'm wrong with my interpretation, but it seems to make sense.
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Sounds very much like the way the French deal with VFR traffic in their TMAs.
"Hello G-jdsf blah, blah blah". Response " G-jdsf Route x, y, z, call when clear of the TMA".
Of course it'll never happen here!
"Hello G-jdsf blah, blah blah". Response " G-jdsf Route x, y, z, call when clear of the TMA".
Of course it'll never happen here!
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As a more general comment on the situation, it seems to me that the whole business of "flight information" (FIS) is a strange concept, which becomes largely unworkable when there is a significant amount of traffic.
I believe the concept of "FIS" dates back to the beginning of ICAO in the 1940s. Aircraft should be able to receive "flight information" in a prescribed manner - this makes sense.
When you fly across say Greece, you are probably one of about 3 VFR planes in the whole of Greek airspace at that moment. So an FIS makes sense, and sure enough they will keep on top of you. They will want you on the VOR-VOR airways (e.g. A14) and they will ask for your ETA to the next WP. There's not a lot of random non-radio bimbling in this place.
But in the UK, on any nice day, there are hundreds of planes in the air. An FIS is meaningless. They are prevented from passing avoidance suggestions (though they sometimes do). The UK FIS controllers - unusually for Europe, I think - don't usually have radar screens; London Info is AFAIK a man sitting at a desk, presumably with the little bits of paper in front of him.
And if they have radar they evidently aren't allowed to refer to it for the purposes of the service provision - e.g. I can fly in the Solent area and I am sure the man has a radar (because if I asked for an RIS he would use it) but he still asks me for position reports. It would surely be easier for him to give me a squawk and then everybody has less work to do
So FIS is of minimal value - except for training PPL students to use the radio.
I know for a fact that most experienced pilots don't use FIS; and if everybody called up London Info the service would collapse immediately so I am sure they are quietly thankful.
FIS and RIS should be merged into one service. In France, FIS is all you can get under VFR and they pass you traffic if it gets close enough. They can do this quite usefully because there is so little traffic over there.
I would suspect they don't want to do that in the UK because, in heavy traffic, the FISO would find it hard to offer a service to some and not others, and nobody wants to pay for more desks.
Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see the point in passing the full prescribed inside leg measurement to the FISO, just so he can write it on a piece of paper. Search/Rescue purposes aside, it doesn't seem to benefit anybody.
I believe the concept of "FIS" dates back to the beginning of ICAO in the 1940s. Aircraft should be able to receive "flight information" in a prescribed manner - this makes sense.
When you fly across say Greece, you are probably one of about 3 VFR planes in the whole of Greek airspace at that moment. So an FIS makes sense, and sure enough they will keep on top of you. They will want you on the VOR-VOR airways (e.g. A14) and they will ask for your ETA to the next WP. There's not a lot of random non-radio bimbling in this place.
But in the UK, on any nice day, there are hundreds of planes in the air. An FIS is meaningless. They are prevented from passing avoidance suggestions (though they sometimes do). The UK FIS controllers - unusually for Europe, I think - don't usually have radar screens; London Info is AFAIK a man sitting at a desk, presumably with the little bits of paper in front of him.
And if they have radar they evidently aren't allowed to refer to it for the purposes of the service provision - e.g. I can fly in the Solent area and I am sure the man has a radar (because if I asked for an RIS he would use it) but he still asks me for position reports. It would surely be easier for him to give me a squawk and then everybody has less work to do
So FIS is of minimal value - except for training PPL students to use the radio.
I know for a fact that most experienced pilots don't use FIS; and if everybody called up London Info the service would collapse immediately so I am sure they are quietly thankful.
FIS and RIS should be merged into one service. In France, FIS is all you can get under VFR and they pass you traffic if it gets close enough. They can do this quite usefully because there is so little traffic over there.
I would suspect they don't want to do that in the UK because, in heavy traffic, the FISO would find it hard to offer a service to some and not others, and nobody wants to pay for more desks.
Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see the point in passing the full prescribed inside leg measurement to the FISO, just so he can write it on a piece of paper. Search/Rescue purposes aside, it doesn't seem to benefit anybody.
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I think I whole heartedly agree!
Up here Scottish can usually be talked to but the only real use is D&D.
Down South I never use London as there seems no point - how can a 'controller' do anything useful without a radar set and a couple of hundred folk to talk to? Fine for information on something specific perhaps (if you could ever get a shout in) but for anything to do with traffic completely pointless.
Up here Scottish can usually be talked to but the only real use is D&D.
Down South I never use London as there seems no point - how can a 'controller' do anything useful without a radar set and a couple of hundred folk to talk to? Fine for information on something specific perhaps (if you could ever get a shout in) but for anything to do with traffic completely pointless.
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Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see the point in passing the full prescribed inside leg measurement to the FISO, just so he can write it on a piece of paper.
G-XXXX is a ----, from ---- to ----, presently at/abeam/5 miles North of ----, request FIS.
If they want any more, they can ask. They almost never do!
The trouble is, as an instructor I'm supposed to teach all this stuff to my students. What do I tell them...do it this way for the test and my way afterwards, or what?
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It's all part of our great aviation heritage - "F for freddy makes angles 35 20 enemy aircraft".
Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!
Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!
Pompey till I die
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Hmm
PP
Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:
Quote:
When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
and
Quote:
Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
See?
Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:
Quote:
When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
and
Quote:
Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
See?
I mostly agree with everything said here but would add that, in my experience:
1. A Military LARS will expect and ask for POB.
2. London Info will often ask for a waypoint ETA, or at least they usually do for me on the very rare occasions I use them.
1. A Military LARS will expect and ask for POB.
2. London Info will often ask for a waypoint ETA, or at least they usually do for me on the very rare occasions I use them.
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The trouble is, as an instructor I'm supposed to teach all this stuff to my students. What do I tell them...do it this way for the test and my way afterwards
Yes, do exactly that. The PPL as a whole is so full of cr*p (e.g. in the ground school) that if you were to pretend it's really necessary nobody with any intelligence will take you seriously. Don't get me started on the circular slide rule
Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!
Actually, the vast majority of PPLs chuck in flying for good within 2-3 years. Only a few remain.
As to what the small remainder "lapse" to, is a good question. Every time I fly I hear dreadful incompetence on the radio. Yet all these people have to go up with an instructor every 2 years. What the **** does this "instructor" do with them??? This is after making all possible allowance for the cr*p radio kit which so many spamcans have.
The best one was the other day, when a pilot, with an otherwise good radio technique, kept using "over" at the end of each transmission. How is this possible? How many decades old could that be? That's done on shortwave (HF) but, in the GA context, only ferry pilots should be exposed to that.
Yes, do exactly that. The PPL as a whole is so full of cr*p (e.g. in the ground school) that if you were to pretend it's really necessary nobody with any intelligence will take you seriously. Don't get me started on the circular slide rule
Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!
Actually, the vast majority of PPLs chuck in flying for good within 2-3 years. Only a few remain.
As to what the small remainder "lapse" to, is a good question. Every time I fly I hear dreadful incompetence on the radio. Yet all these people have to go up with an instructor every 2 years. What the **** does this "instructor" do with them??? This is after making all possible allowance for the cr*p radio kit which so many spamcans have.
The best one was the other day, when a pilot, with an otherwise good radio technique, kept using "over" at the end of each transmission. How is this possible? How many decades old could that be? That's done on shortwave (HF) but, in the GA context, only ferry pilots should be exposed to that.
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PP and MH152 - You still don't get it, do you!!! A "position report" is an IFR concept, not relevant at all to the flying you're doing - intended for use at set reporting routes on airways and - arguably more importantly - advisory routes. I'm not sure on this, but I believe CAP413 is intended as a reference document, not a training manual, and to someone who actually has a vague idea about the world outside GA it is perfectly clear.
PP - stop trying to second guess ATC and clogging up the airwaves with the sound of your voice - if they're really interested they'll ask you, but the chance of them being so interested is remarkably low. So shut your cakehole and leave the frequency available for anyone with a mayday or a pan to be able to use without waiting half an hour! Sorry to rant, but I've been inconvenienced on multiple occasions and in one case arguably endangered by people passing just the kind of guff you mention.
Off to take some blood pressure pills and lie down for a minute....
PP - stop trying to second guess ATC and clogging up the airwaves with the sound of your voice - if they're really interested they'll ask you, but the chance of them being so interested is remarkably low. So shut your cakehole and leave the frequency available for anyone with a mayday or a pan to be able to use without waiting half an hour! Sorry to rant, but I've been inconvenienced on multiple occasions and in one case arguably endangered by people passing just the kind of guff you mention.
Off to take some blood pressure pills and lie down for a minute....
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PP,
If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.
If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!
If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.
If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!
Pompey till I die
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PP,
If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.
If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!
If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.
If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!
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I'm not really used to giving ETA's to the FIS controller.
If he's radar, he knows where I am and when I'll get there better than I do.
If he's information only he couldn't care less ! He just needs a rough idea of where I am going and let me know of any traffic.
Happened to me quite a few times that I am receiving FIS from a radar unit just outside their zone and someone else is flying in the same area but they're talking to a FISO. Saw them zooming past 500ft below me, they probably were on a FIS "No known traffic to affect you"
Obviously nobody's fault, in class G.
If he's radar, he knows where I am and when I'll get there better than I do.
If he's information only he couldn't care less ! He just needs a rough idea of where I am going and let me know of any traffic.
Happened to me quite a few times that I am receiving FIS from a radar unit just outside their zone and someone else is flying in the same area but they're talking to a FISO. Saw them zooming past 500ft below me, they probably were on a FIS "No known traffic to affect you"
Obviously nobody's fault, in class G.
PP
Okay, I'll try to make it simple - THEY'RE NOT LINKED.
Present Position
Position Report
See, they're different, don't try to link them, don't try to think about it, just do what it says.
Windsor Great Park - Brown Windsor Soup - Barbara Windsor - Windsor Davies
All share the word Windsor, none are the same thing, see?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to point out that you're thinking about it too much and until Airbus38 rules the world we'll just have to put up with what the book says.
Okay, I'll try to make it simple - THEY'RE NOT LINKED.
Present Position
Position Report
See, they're different, don't try to link them, don't try to think about it, just do what it says.
Windsor Great Park - Brown Windsor Soup - Barbara Windsor - Windsor Davies
All share the word Windsor, none are the same thing, see?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to point out that you're thinking about it too much and until Airbus38 rules the world we'll just have to put up with what the book says.
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I was taught in the military (Navy ground based crash waggons, mobile units etc) some 40yrs ago at the age of ~18-20.
I started PPL last July at the age of 67 & I still cannot get the "over" bit out of my thick skull. Niether can my wife who was in air traffic at the same time. One of our ATC persons tells me they just think we are all ex Lancaster pilots! I have passed the FRTOL, (with the ocasional "over" & ommiting to report the position of the dingy in distress (pan call) until asked). I was also "taught" that there are real people on the other end trying to help, if they need to know something they will ask.
I recently, during nav ex, called Scottish information, G-xxx will divert from Auchterarder to Kelty, est Kelty mins xx". Gxxxx report Kelty. "Report Kelty Gxxxx". 30seconds later I called "Oh by the way Scottish, Gxxxx is climbing to 3500ft for terrain clearance, over". Gxxxx, roger & thank you for that!
Perhaps not perfect procedure but he didn't fire a microwave beam into my headset.
I started PPL last July at the age of 67 & I still cannot get the "over" bit out of my thick skull. Niether can my wife who was in air traffic at the same time. One of our ATC persons tells me they just think we are all ex Lancaster pilots! I have passed the FRTOL, (with the ocasional "over" & ommiting to report the position of the dingy in distress (pan call) until asked). I was also "taught" that there are real people on the other end trying to help, if they need to know something they will ask.
I recently, during nav ex, called Scottish information, G-xxx will divert from Auchterarder to Kelty, est Kelty mins xx". Gxxxx report Kelty. "Report Kelty Gxxxx". 30seconds later I called "Oh by the way Scottish, Gxxxx is climbing to 3500ft for terrain clearance, over". Gxxxx, roger & thank you for that!
Perhaps not perfect procedure but he didn't fire a microwave beam into my headset.
