Who can afford it?
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Who can afford it?
We all get irritated by the general assumption that all private pilots are millionaires, but given the current price of fuel I suspect the average man in the street is less likely to frequent their local flying club than we like to think.
It isn't so much a case of being able to afford the occasional hour, as being able to enjoy it without thinking of what else the money could have bought.
Ignoring those who use aircraft for business, heading for an aviation career, or who really are rich by anyones standards, just how well off is the average Cessna hirer or Cherokee group member?
Do we really get many people on less than £30k/year? Or even £40k which is roughly 90% of the population. I'm beginning to think the average income for PPL holders must be approaching £100k/year.
It isn't so much a case of being able to afford the occasional hour, as being able to enjoy it without thinking of what else the money could have bought.
Ignoring those who use aircraft for business, heading for an aviation career, or who really are rich by anyones standards, just how well off is the average Cessna hirer or Cherokee group member?
Do we really get many people on less than £30k/year? Or even £40k which is roughly 90% of the population. I'm beginning to think the average income for PPL holders must be approaching £100k/year.
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Obviously the answer must depend on
a) disposable income, and
b) what else the pilot has to do in his/her life
Now, a) is the difference between income and "hard" outgoings and varies enormously. I know of men on £100k who haven't got anything spare, after sending 3 kids to private school, paying for the wife's credit card bills, paying the mortgage, paying the HP on the Mitsubishi Shogun which is necessary for the school run to any respectable private school.
If you are on £20k net and live with your mum, you will have loads of spare dosh; probably about £15k.
So knowing what the average PPL salary is wouldn't mean anything.
Average UK male is on about £22k gross and if living alone that isn't going to leave much for hobbies. The trick is to shack up with somebody else who is also working, avoid accumulating the usual UK symbols of copious consumption, and not have kids
Oh nearly forgot... avoid divorce!
Regarding b), that is the reason for why the UK GA scene is mostly a bunch of anoraks. Most people with some spare dosh tend to use it to enhance their social life first, and the younger they are the more deliberately they go about doing this. After they have fixed up their social life, found a partner etc, do they pursue other hobbies like flying.
The cost of flying also varies enormously. If you confine yourself to a local bimble on a sunny day, once a month, that's going to cost a lot less than IFR currency and 100-200hrs/year.
a) disposable income, and
b) what else the pilot has to do in his/her life
Now, a) is the difference between income and "hard" outgoings and varies enormously. I know of men on £100k who haven't got anything spare, after sending 3 kids to private school, paying for the wife's credit card bills, paying the mortgage, paying the HP on the Mitsubishi Shogun which is necessary for the school run to any respectable private school.
If you are on £20k net and live with your mum, you will have loads of spare dosh; probably about £15k.
So knowing what the average PPL salary is wouldn't mean anything.
Average UK male is on about £22k gross and if living alone that isn't going to leave much for hobbies. The trick is to shack up with somebody else who is also working, avoid accumulating the usual UK symbols of copious consumption, and not have kids
Oh nearly forgot... avoid divorce!
Regarding b), that is the reason for why the UK GA scene is mostly a bunch of anoraks. Most people with some spare dosh tend to use it to enhance their social life first, and the younger they are the more deliberately they go about doing this. After they have fixed up their social life, found a partner etc, do they pursue other hobbies like flying.
The cost of flying also varies enormously. If you confine yourself to a local bimble on a sunny day, once a month, that's going to cost a lot less than IFR currency and 100-200hrs/year.
Moderator
I shall soften my words, as I am aware that the price of things in the UK is somewhat higher than the price of the same things in North America. I do not know why, but I am appreciative that I don't have to pay the UK cost for things! People here are outraged this week at autogas prices of (=50P) per litre...
That said, I think that it is the responsibility of each of us to live within our means. If we want to spend more we have to earn more.
When I learned to fly, it was a little expensive for me at $18 per hour for a C150 (wet) That's about 7 pounds 50. I really had to struggle to pay the $55 for the Cessna Cardinal RG. Okay, it was a while ago. That cost is now five times higher. I guess that I could afford it still, as I am able to afford to learn to fly a helicopter right now...
My plane was completely paid for 19 years ago, and I can afford to fly it several times a week. It's modest, as it's 'only' (many other people's term, not mine) a Cessna 150M, but it's in great shape with good paint, radios, interior, and a new engine. When I burn autogas in it (95% of the time), I actually get all of the road taxes (included in the price of the gas) back! - I'm not complaining about that! When I go to sell my plane one day, it will be worth 4 -5 times what I paid for it, after I put 2000+ hours on it. Great investment, I wish I'd bought a dozen!
I could own my buddy's Cessna 182RG, or the Cessna T206 I test flew yesterday, and I'd be broke! I could not afford the maintenance or the gas. I could have accepted a 1/3 share in a Cessna 310 instead of buying my 150 all those years ago, but I would have been broke right away!
So, I don't mean to sound too positive here, I know that it can be annoying to have sunshine poured onto a rainy day parade, but I can afford it, and I sure appreciate how lucky I am that I can. Not only that, how lucky I am to live in a nation where personal flight and aircraft ownership is even permitted. I could be a lot worse off!
It sounds like you are able to afford to get in the air, that's great! Me too! Lucky us... Neither of us have to worry about the cost of insurance for our private BAE146, or the cost of replacement rotor blades for our personal Sikorsky 76. How lucky are we!
Sorry to tell you, but I'm the guy who can afford it!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
That said, I think that it is the responsibility of each of us to live within our means. If we want to spend more we have to earn more.
When I learned to fly, it was a little expensive for me at $18 per hour for a C150 (wet) That's about 7 pounds 50. I really had to struggle to pay the $55 for the Cessna Cardinal RG. Okay, it was a while ago. That cost is now five times higher. I guess that I could afford it still, as I am able to afford to learn to fly a helicopter right now...
My plane was completely paid for 19 years ago, and I can afford to fly it several times a week. It's modest, as it's 'only' (many other people's term, not mine) a Cessna 150M, but it's in great shape with good paint, radios, interior, and a new engine. When I burn autogas in it (95% of the time), I actually get all of the road taxes (included in the price of the gas) back! - I'm not complaining about that! When I go to sell my plane one day, it will be worth 4 -5 times what I paid for it, after I put 2000+ hours on it. Great investment, I wish I'd bought a dozen!
I could own my buddy's Cessna 182RG, or the Cessna T206 I test flew yesterday, and I'd be broke! I could not afford the maintenance or the gas. I could have accepted a 1/3 share in a Cessna 310 instead of buying my 150 all those years ago, but I would have been broke right away!
So, I don't mean to sound too positive here, I know that it can be annoying to have sunshine poured onto a rainy day parade, but I can afford it, and I sure appreciate how lucky I am that I can. Not only that, how lucky I am to live in a nation where personal flight and aircraft ownership is even permitted. I could be a lot worse off!
It sounds like you are able to afford to get in the air, that's great! Me too! Lucky us... Neither of us have to worry about the cost of insurance for our private BAE146, or the cost of replacement rotor blades for our personal Sikorsky 76. How lucky are we!
Sorry to tell you, but I'm the guy who can afford it!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
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Well I am not a rich man after my divorce!! I earn about £35k
I guess I average about 6 hours a month, however I do have periods where I fly alot. For instance in the last 15 days I have flown 12.5 hours. Next week I will fly about 30 hours, then I will be back to bread and water until christmas.
It is as IO540 says all down to disposable income. My 12.5 hours flying in the last 15 days has cost me the following:
Aircraft £750.00
Fuel: £320.00
Landing Fees: £97.00
Parking: £102.00
TOTAL: £1269.00
Thats alot of money in my book. Now if I used a club plane I would only have had to pay £1012.50, but my club is a little bit anal about long trips (esepcially overseas) and overnights.
So another part of the equation is the quality of flying. If you can only afford the odd hour here and there to stay current and bimble about your local airfield then what is the point.
Persoanly I don't really have any commitments now.
Rented House
Company car
No credit cards
No loans
No debt
My biggest expense is holidays, usualy New york or florida (where I end up doing a load of flying)
I guess I average about 6 hours a month, however I do have periods where I fly alot. For instance in the last 15 days I have flown 12.5 hours. Next week I will fly about 30 hours, then I will be back to bread and water until christmas.
It is as IO540 says all down to disposable income. My 12.5 hours flying in the last 15 days has cost me the following:
Aircraft £750.00
Fuel: £320.00
Landing Fees: £97.00
Parking: £102.00
TOTAL: £1269.00
Thats alot of money in my book. Now if I used a club plane I would only have had to pay £1012.50, but my club is a little bit anal about long trips (esepcially overseas) and overnights.
So another part of the equation is the quality of flying. If you can only afford the odd hour here and there to stay current and bimble about your local airfield then what is the point.
Persoanly I don't really have any commitments now.
Rented House
Company car
No credit cards
No loans
No debt
My biggest expense is holidays, usualy New york or florida (where I end up doing a load of flying)
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Well you make the flying to fit your pocket.
When I learnt I was earning around £10K but was single and it was the late 80's, IIRC it cost me around £60/hr to fly a CFG Tigermoth. Now I earn around £27K, and my wife is a housewife. To be fair I get a free farmhouse, so I guess that takes it to around £34K in real terms, + as a farm manager I have set up my own strip. However, I have 5 kids, so money is not exactly "disposable". The way I afford to fly is by flying a cheap single seater that costs me around £18/hr all in. Others go for microlights, gliding or whatever. If I had the money I'd have a Hurricane, but I don't so I make do and enjoy what I can fly ... and BOY DO I ENJOY IT!!!
SS
When I learnt I was earning around £10K but was single and it was the late 80's, IIRC it cost me around £60/hr to fly a CFG Tigermoth. Now I earn around £27K, and my wife is a housewife. To be fair I get a free farmhouse, so I guess that takes it to around £34K in real terms, + as a farm manager I have set up my own strip. However, I have 5 kids, so money is not exactly "disposable". The way I afford to fly is by flying a cheap single seater that costs me around £18/hr all in. Others go for microlights, gliding or whatever. If I had the money I'd have a Hurricane, but I don't so I make do and enjoy what I can fly ... and BOY DO I ENJOY IT!!!
SS
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Certianly owning your own strip makes things alot cheaper (in the UK or non FAA land).
On the Isle of Man I use Andreas which is owned by a friend of mine, so It doesnt cost me a bean. At Filton if I fly the club plane then I don't pay landing or parking fee's. All this month I have borrrowed my mates plane which has cost a fortune in landing fees and parking fees.
To keep fuel costs down I have an Air BP account so I get 100LL for about £1.07 per litre. It is definatley worth getting fuel accounts as you do pay slightly less and you can pay monthly (as in settle the account every month).
On the Isle of Man I use Andreas which is owned by a friend of mine, so It doesnt cost me a bean. At Filton if I fly the club plane then I don't pay landing or parking fee's. All this month I have borrrowed my mates plane which has cost a fortune in landing fees and parking fees.
To keep fuel costs down I have an Air BP account so I get 100LL for about £1.07 per litre. It is definatley worth getting fuel accounts as you do pay slightly less and you can pay monthly (as in settle the account every month).
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It isn't so much a case of being able to afford the occasional hour, as being able to enjoy it without thinking of what else the money could have bought.
For me, there's Real Life, and then there's Aviation (and also long haul holidays and cats, where I think the same way, but never mind about that).
For my chosen addiction, if I have the money, within reason (ie without starving or serious debt), then it's not too expensive. I don't think about what else I could spend it on...what else could there be? Is there anything else? How on earth could I prefer anything else to flying?
But Real Life, that's different. I don't earn all that much, so I'm very frugal. I rarely change my car, don't eat out much, buy clothes in markets or secondhand shops. I agonise over whether to take the M6 Toll road if going south, not because it's a rip-off, which it is, but because 4 quid is a lot of money! I'm ecstatic if I can save money by buying something on Ebay.
In Real Life, if something is a tenner, it's expensive. In aviation, if it's only 150 quid, it's cheap.
I know quite a lot of other people who operate this way. If we didn't, we couldn't possibly justify our flying. It's nsane by normal standards, I know, but then, did any of us ever claim to be normal?
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I know what you mean Whirly. I think exactly the same. My cats are my only commitment and I cant let them go with out. Other than that my money goes on Flying and holidays.
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I would imagine, a majority of "new" pilots are early retiree's, probably always wanted to learn, but never got round to it, or it wasn't financially possible,
thats where I fit in, having done a lot of maths, I decided the nppl m route, the most obvious, apart from the nppl being cheaper to gain, a fixed wing microlight, is a whole lot cheaper to buy, run & maintain, with very little going against it, those wishing to fly IMC or eventually Commercial, would probably be younger
TV
thats where I fit in, having done a lot of maths, I decided the nppl m route, the most obvious, apart from the nppl being cheaper to gain, a fixed wing microlight, is a whole lot cheaper to buy, run & maintain, with very little going against it, those wishing to fly IMC or eventually Commercial, would probably be younger
TV
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Talking of age. When was I was learning out in Florida, there were a few teenagers and a cou[le of people in thier early 20's who's parents pay for their flying. And they were not very appreciative people.
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Flying on a budget
It's really quite simple... Cut the suit according to the cloth.
I just wanted to be able to fly VFR and do some touring within the Uk, using grass strips. So, I got myself an NPPL(M) last year. Then I thought through my options and ended up buying a sweet little Rans S6 which costs in terms of both acquistion and running costs no more than a tidy car. Managed to persuade the good woman to come up with me for an hour today and our fuel cost was about £15.
If I have the time and the weather is ok, I fly.
PFA permit operation is certainly the route to affordable flying.
I just wanted to be able to fly VFR and do some touring within the Uk, using grass strips. So, I got myself an NPPL(M) last year. Then I thought through my options and ended up buying a sweet little Rans S6 which costs in terms of both acquistion and running costs no more than a tidy car. Managed to persuade the good woman to come up with me for an hour today and our fuel cost was about £15.
If I have the time and the weather is ok, I fly.
PFA permit operation is certainly the route to affordable flying.
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The other option is fly minimum hours in the UK and go to the US to do the bulk of your flying, Actualy most countries other than England are cheaper than England.
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A lot of people get the PPL and then give up. (For any of the reasons discussed here regularly.)
It costs around £6k to get a PPL. That's hardly a lot to add to a typical modern mortgage. So, anyone who can comfortably buy a house can at least get the licence - yes I know that rules a lot of people out, but it also rules a lot of people in.
It costs around £6k to get a PPL. That's hardly a lot to add to a typical modern mortgage. So, anyone who can comfortably buy a house can at least get the licence - yes I know that rules a lot of people out, but it also rules a lot of people in.
A 20 a day cigarette habit costs about £1900 that will buy you a fair bit of flying time.
No kids, thats a small fortune.
Drive an N reg car with 100,000 miles on the clock instead of something new.
Group ownership
Operating from a strip
PFA aircraft
A combination of the above will get you a fair few hours a year!!!!!!!.
No kids, thats a small fortune.
Drive an N reg car with 100,000 miles on the clock instead of something new.
Group ownership
Operating from a strip
PFA aircraft
A combination of the above will get you a fair few hours a year!!!!!!!.
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Gertrude is right. There is a lot of double standards in this; not necessarily intentional or conscious.
The fag/booze habit of many an average punter would pay for an awful lot of flying, yet they somehow manage to fund this hobby (not the flying) from casual work supplemented by DSS payments.
And stand next to the M25/etc and count the 6-digit priced cars per hour. Most are not company cars; well certainly not company issued cars. Most have lost best part of 5 digits in value between the day they were bought and the day you see them. Even 1% of this money coming into GA would transform it.
The biggest problem with GA isn't the cost; the biggest problem is the reason (whatever it is) why most of the copious money that is sloshing around our society is bypassing it. If this was brought in, there would be a lot more going on, and the resulting economies of scale etc would enable a lot more "poorer" people to participate, by taking advantage of the inevitable cross subsidy. As it is, most GA airfields are funded mostly by people who are scraping out the bottom of the barrel and that is always going to be hard.
The hard reality is that flying has never been cheap and never will be cheap. It's probably half the price in the USA but that isn't a whole lot of help if you haven't got any money. The real problem is the lack of social scene, lack of utility, generally poor organisation, etc.
One can enjoy cheaper flying by going for the less regulated side i.e. the "sports" category machines. But they still cost a lot.
The fag/booze habit of many an average punter would pay for an awful lot of flying, yet they somehow manage to fund this hobby (not the flying) from casual work supplemented by DSS payments.
And stand next to the M25/etc and count the 6-digit priced cars per hour. Most are not company cars; well certainly not company issued cars. Most have lost best part of 5 digits in value between the day they were bought and the day you see them. Even 1% of this money coming into GA would transform it.
The biggest problem with GA isn't the cost; the biggest problem is the reason (whatever it is) why most of the copious money that is sloshing around our society is bypassing it. If this was brought in, there would be a lot more going on, and the resulting economies of scale etc would enable a lot more "poorer" people to participate, by taking advantage of the inevitable cross subsidy. As it is, most GA airfields are funded mostly by people who are scraping out the bottom of the barrel and that is always going to be hard.
The hard reality is that flying has never been cheap and never will be cheap. It's probably half the price in the USA but that isn't a whole lot of help if you haven't got any money. The real problem is the lack of social scene, lack of utility, generally poor organisation, etc.
One can enjoy cheaper flying by going for the less regulated side i.e. the "sports" category machines. But they still cost a lot.
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Would have to agree with the points made on this thread, especially IO's point about the booze/cancer stick costs.
I am convinced that not having a girlfriend is the reason I am able to fly... there are advantages in being single after all
I am convinced that not having a girlfriend is the reason I am able to fly... there are advantages in being single after all
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Smithy I i agree with the girlfriend statement. Before I got divorced I could never afford to fly. After the divorce it was amazing how much more money I had available.
A friend of mine had been flying for about a year as a single man, he gets himself a girlfriend and now he barley flys because he has no money.
I am sure it is probably the same for you female pilots.
A friend of mine had been flying for about a year as a single man, he gets himself a girlfriend and now he barley flys because he has no money.
I am sure it is probably the same for you female pilots.
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WRT the last 2 posts above, why the hell do these men pick such useless girlfriends?
In this society, nobody is forced to shack up with a particular woman, and a sh*g is never worth long term unhappiness or hassle. Yet, men make this kind of stupid mistake over and over again, usually even marrying the woman
I think by the time they reach 40 they have learnt this, which is no doubt why the internet dating sites are packed with 40+ women - the sucker men get much scarcer. But it seems to me that nothing short of every mate of a man having been fleeced and.or being under some woman's thumb and getting a bollocking for staying out past 2230 is enough to drive it into a man's head that he needs to be a bit more fussy.
I fly with my girlfriend and we have wonderful flying holidays together. She has her own job and doesn't "live off me" and doesn't resent my hobbies.
If I had learnt to fly while I was still married, it would have been difficult because she would have resented my freedom (as many women do if they fall into the "housewife" role) and a comparable amount of money would have been spent on something for her to do, which would have doubled the cost.
So I can see that commencing flying within a marriage can be difficult. But to end up with a woman and then moan one can't fly is just not on
In this society, nobody is forced to shack up with a particular woman, and a sh*g is never worth long term unhappiness or hassle. Yet, men make this kind of stupid mistake over and over again, usually even marrying the woman
I think by the time they reach 40 they have learnt this, which is no doubt why the internet dating sites are packed with 40+ women - the sucker men get much scarcer. But it seems to me that nothing short of every mate of a man having been fleeced and.or being under some woman's thumb and getting a bollocking for staying out past 2230 is enough to drive it into a man's head that he needs to be a bit more fussy.
I fly with my girlfriend and we have wonderful flying holidays together. She has her own job and doesn't "live off me" and doesn't resent my hobbies.
If I had learnt to fly while I was still married, it would have been difficult because she would have resented my freedom (as many women do if they fall into the "housewife" role) and a comparable amount of money would have been spent on something for her to do, which would have doubled the cost.
So I can see that commencing flying within a marriage can be difficult. But to end up with a woman and then moan one can't fly is just not on