PPL flying a 747
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 43
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
I have been reading this post with intrigue since i have always wondered whether in the event of a horrible emergency I would be able to put a 747 on the ground. I very much doubt that a ppl without any type rating would be able to put the beast onto the deck safely without any sim experience , be it level D or PC based. I have been using MS flightsim with the PMDG 747-400 for about two years now and have just about come to terms with it and although the modelling/functionality is apparently very good for a relatively cheap pc based sim i expect that there a number of intricate details that are not modelled. I think Floppy Link is correct with regards to things like auto pilot and throttle disconnects etc.
If required i think after simming for around two years in the ms flightsim 2004 PMDG 747 I could programme the FMC or manually use the MCP to guide the plane down and eventually autoland. One thing that wouldn't be sure of is what happens once on the ground. I would know how to set the autobrake however, in the PMDG sim reverse thrust is brought in manually and i am not 100% sure that i would know how to bring this in. I have a fair idea but it would be trial and error.
I completely agree that this is not flying the aircraft by hand and i would say that it would be much safer bringing it in automatically.
I am currently 5 hours into my ppl and enjoying every minute of it, l but it's not the cessna 150 is not quite the 747-400 that i was hoping for. Still, you've got to learn the basics, right?
Ed
I have been reading this post with intrigue since i have always wondered whether in the event of a horrible emergency I would be able to put a 747 on the ground. I very much doubt that a ppl without any type rating would be able to put the beast onto the deck safely without any sim experience , be it level D or PC based. I have been using MS flightsim with the PMDG 747-400 for about two years now and have just about come to terms with it and although the modelling/functionality is apparently very good for a relatively cheap pc based sim i expect that there a number of intricate details that are not modelled. I think Floppy Link is correct with regards to things like auto pilot and throttle disconnects etc.
If required i think after simming for around two years in the ms flightsim 2004 PMDG 747 I could programme the FMC or manually use the MCP to guide the plane down and eventually autoland. One thing that wouldn't be sure of is what happens once on the ground. I would know how to set the autobrake however, in the PMDG sim reverse thrust is brought in manually and i am not 100% sure that i would know how to bring this in. I have a fair idea but it would be trial and error.
I completely agree that this is not flying the aircraft by hand and i would say that it would be much safer bringing it in automatically.
I am currently 5 hours into my ppl and enjoying every minute of it, l but it's not the cessna 150 is not quite the 747-400 that i was hoping for. Still, you've got to learn the basics, right?
Ed
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: SE England
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Floppy Link,
That is one of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe
Have you ever considered writing for one of the aviation magazines? If not, then can you, please?
Regards,
DBChopper
That is one of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe
Have you ever considered writing for one of the aviation magazines? If not, then can you, please?
Regards,
DBChopper
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I am sure you are correct that all sorts could go wrong, but I thought we had moved on to discuss the scenario where there was a 747 pilot on the radio telling PPL what to do. The suggestion was made that in that manufactured scenario a PPL wouldn't be able to cope, I simply think that is nonsense.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I bet that *any* 747 currently flying is only one mayday call on 121.5 away from another 747. How many of the things were produced, how many hours a day do these things operate on average, and what's the VHF line-of-sight on FL300? Without doing the math, I'm pretty sure I'd win the bet unless you specifically search for far-away places like Perth or so.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Here, but originally from over there...
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay adding a slightly different twist - you (you being a qualified PPL) take a friend flying in your Cessna/Piper, your friend has never flown or been in one of these planes before – you go unserviceable so to speak - do you think your friend could land the plane at an airfield?
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
My father and I won a charity raffle trip in the BA 744 sim at Cranebank - it must have been about 15 years ago.
We had a two hour trip, and by the end of it I was poling it into Kai Tak with the training captain in the LHS prompting me and following me through on the throttles. I had about 140 hours SEP at the time. LHR was much easier, but I 'm sure I didn't do a solo/un-assisted landing.
Based on that experience I don't think it would be possible for a PPL to do it even with prompting from the ground.
We had a two hour trip, and by the end of it I was poling it into Kai Tak with the training captain in the LHS prompting me and following me through on the throttles. I had about 140 hours SEP at the time. LHR was much easier, but I 'm sure I didn't do a solo/un-assisted landing.
Based on that experience I don't think it would be possible for a PPL to do it even with prompting from the ground.
slim_slag...
so we agree! I suppose my point was that if the autopilot is disconnected, there is a high probability that you'll all die. It's just that there are a fair few ways to inadvertantly trip off the autopilot before you even get to talking on the radio...for the 757 I think I can remember at least 6 - and only one of them is placarded "DISENGAGE"
And now for some massive thread drift - Here's another question we once pondered....
"Could a police helicopter be landed in a survivable manner by the front observer (left hand seat) in the event of incapacitation of the (single) pilot in the right hand seat?"
bearing in mind that...
1) it's an Ec135 or other modern glass cockpit machine with sophisticated autopilot
2) One set of controls only - the front observer does have a joystick but all that does is control the camera!
so with only the autopilot controls, the collective lever between the seats and the ability to talk on the radio...we had a go. With a cheat sheet of what to do, what buttons to push and in what order, the regular observers could control the flight path of the aircraft and would probably have been able to fly a coupled ILS to get the aircraft to a crumpled heap on the runway of a major airport where the fire engines and ambulances are waiting and possibly survive....much better than a spiral death dive from 3000ft.
Originally Posted by Floppy Link
...then it is theoretically possible to save the day and walk away the hero...
And now for some massive thread drift - Here's another question we once pondered....
"Could a police helicopter be landed in a survivable manner by the front observer (left hand seat) in the event of incapacitation of the (single) pilot in the right hand seat?"
bearing in mind that...
1) it's an Ec135 or other modern glass cockpit machine with sophisticated autopilot
2) One set of controls only - the front observer does have a joystick but all that does is control the camera!
so with only the autopilot controls, the collective lever between the seats and the ability to talk on the radio...we had a go. With a cheat sheet of what to do, what buttons to push and in what order, the regular observers could control the flight path of the aircraft and would probably have been able to fly a coupled ILS to get the aircraft to a crumpled heap on the runway of a major airport where the fire engines and ambulances are waiting and possibly survive....much better than a spiral death dive from 3000ft.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay adding a slightly different twist - you (you being a qualified PPL) take a friend flying in your Cessna/Piper, your friend has never flown or been in one of these planes before – you go unserviceable so to speak - do you think your friend could land the plane at an airfield?
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Floppy Link,
What do these airplanes do if the pilots don't do anything after the cleared route is programmed in? Does it fly any clearance limit and hold? If you are cleared to the destination airport will it just shoot an approach or hold at the IAF, or something else altogether? If it's an N-reg I guess it needs the instruction manual to be on board, I suppose you could always get it out and look PTT button up in the index
What do these airplanes do if the pilots don't do anything after the cleared route is programmed in? Does it fly any clearance limit and hold? If you are cleared to the destination airport will it just shoot an approach or hold at the IAF, or something else altogether? If it's an N-reg I guess it needs the instruction manual to be on board, I suppose you could always get it out and look PTT button up in the index
As far as I remember (somebody please correct me if I'm talking rubbish...)
If the route which has been programmed into the Flight Management Computer (FMC) includes the arrival at the destination (sometimes it doesn't - on several 767 trips back from the Indian Ocean our FMC got filled up and we got a "Route Full" message, so we had to delay putting in the arrival into Gatwick until a quiet point in the cruise when the route had freed up enough waypoints to give us space), and...
if the arrival at the destination includes a hold, or if the missed approach ends in a hold, and...
the route has been activated, and...
the autopilot is in Lateral navigation (LNAV) mode, then
the autopilot should fly the aircraft along the magenta line on the nav screen and enter any hold which it encounters. If you reach the end of the route without meeting a hold, the autopilot will go from LNAV mode to HDG HOLD mode and fly off into the distance on the last heading. Twiddling the heading knob has no effect - you need to press it in to activate HDG SEL mode and then you can drive it round using just finger and thumb.
(it would be just our luck for the aircraft to be on a radar heading when the PPL gets to the flight deck, then it won't hold or follow the route until you fiddle with the heading button)
In vertical terms, as you approach the point where the FMC has calculated you should start down, you'll get a message "RESET MCP ALT" message to remind you. If you dial in a lower altitude in the Mode Control Panel then the aircraft will start down by itself. If you don't then if I remember correctly the autopilot goes from Vertical Navigation (VNAV) to Altitude Hold (ALT HOLD).
In ALT HOLD you'll need to control speed using the MCP speed window, which in VNAV was blank. Trouble is, this opens in IAS and needs to be selected to MACH at high level using the wee button underneath it. If you don't the autothrust will maintain IAS and any changes in temperature outside (not uncommon) will change the local speed of sound and thus the Mach No. for our IAS. If we are high with a small margin between too slow and too fast (the aforementioned "coffin corner") then the automatics could either (less likely due to stick shakers, pushers etc) stall the aircraft (leading to a "Jet Upset") or more likely exceed Mach Crit (leading to "Mach tuck"), with all the attendant warnings, alarms and general doom.
Awww cr*p I've rambled on again. To answer your question...the automatics will follow the programmed route if the route is active and LNAV is engaged (unless [here we go again!] you were on a heading which diverged from the route, then if you press the LNAV button all that'll happen is a message saying "NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING"). If there's an active hold in the programmed route the aircraft will enter and hold until the fuel runs out, if you let it.
For vertical profile the aircraft (Boeing) will happily fly the whole route at cruise level, overflying the runway down the centreline at (e.g) FL350. I did hear that an Airbus Flight Management and Guidance System (FMGS) has a different philosophy whereby the aircraft will start down automatically unless you select an altitude hold mode. But that could be total bolleaux, somebody else can advise.
The manuals you'll find in the "ship's library" behind the First Officers seat (Boeing). It would probably take too long to find the relevant page so....The PTT is on the forward side of the yoke (out of view) at the top of one of the horns and is a rocker switch - UP (spring loaded) - PTT on the radio, centre and DOWN (not spring loaded) for intercom. Plus one for each pilot on the centre console by the volume controls, plus one for each pilot on the glareshield as well, outboard of the MCP. Some older Boeings don't have the glareshield PTTs fitted.
I need my medical back soon, I'm spending far too much time at the keyboard!
If the route which has been programmed into the Flight Management Computer (FMC) includes the arrival at the destination (sometimes it doesn't - on several 767 trips back from the Indian Ocean our FMC got filled up and we got a "Route Full" message, so we had to delay putting in the arrival into Gatwick until a quiet point in the cruise when the route had freed up enough waypoints to give us space), and...
if the arrival at the destination includes a hold, or if the missed approach ends in a hold, and...
the route has been activated, and...
the autopilot is in Lateral navigation (LNAV) mode, then
the autopilot should fly the aircraft along the magenta line on the nav screen and enter any hold which it encounters. If you reach the end of the route without meeting a hold, the autopilot will go from LNAV mode to HDG HOLD mode and fly off into the distance on the last heading. Twiddling the heading knob has no effect - you need to press it in to activate HDG SEL mode and then you can drive it round using just finger and thumb.
(it would be just our luck for the aircraft to be on a radar heading when the PPL gets to the flight deck, then it won't hold or follow the route until you fiddle with the heading button)
In vertical terms, as you approach the point where the FMC has calculated you should start down, you'll get a message "RESET MCP ALT" message to remind you. If you dial in a lower altitude in the Mode Control Panel then the aircraft will start down by itself. If you don't then if I remember correctly the autopilot goes from Vertical Navigation (VNAV) to Altitude Hold (ALT HOLD).
In ALT HOLD you'll need to control speed using the MCP speed window, which in VNAV was blank. Trouble is, this opens in IAS and needs to be selected to MACH at high level using the wee button underneath it. If you don't the autothrust will maintain IAS and any changes in temperature outside (not uncommon) will change the local speed of sound and thus the Mach No. for our IAS. If we are high with a small margin between too slow and too fast (the aforementioned "coffin corner") then the automatics could either (less likely due to stick shakers, pushers etc) stall the aircraft (leading to a "Jet Upset") or more likely exceed Mach Crit (leading to "Mach tuck"), with all the attendant warnings, alarms and general doom.
Awww cr*p I've rambled on again. To answer your question...the automatics will follow the programmed route if the route is active and LNAV is engaged (unless [here we go again!] you were on a heading which diverged from the route, then if you press the LNAV button all that'll happen is a message saying "NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING"). If there's an active hold in the programmed route the aircraft will enter and hold until the fuel runs out, if you let it.
For vertical profile the aircraft (Boeing) will happily fly the whole route at cruise level, overflying the runway down the centreline at (e.g) FL350. I did hear that an Airbus Flight Management and Guidance System (FMGS) has a different philosophy whereby the aircraft will start down automatically unless you select an altitude hold mode. But that could be total bolleaux, somebody else can advise.
The manuals you'll find in the "ship's library" behind the First Officers seat (Boeing). It would probably take too long to find the relevant page so....The PTT is on the forward side of the yoke (out of view) at the top of one of the horns and is a rocker switch - UP (spring loaded) - PTT on the radio, centre and DOWN (not spring loaded) for intercom. Plus one for each pilot on the centre console by the volume controls, plus one for each pilot on the glareshield as well, outboard of the MCP. Some older Boeings don't have the glareshield PTTs fitted.
I need my medical back soon, I'm spending far too much time at the keyboard!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did hear that an Airbus Flight Management and Guidance System (FMGS) has a different philosophy whereby the aircraft will start down automatically unless you select an altitude hold mode. But that could be total bolleaux, somebody else can advise.
Horgy
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Estonia
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, but Travolta is flying under US registration and US FAR Part 125.
Actually, what he does seems contrary to Part 125 as well.
Namely, Part 125 requires CPL qualifications from both captain AND copilot!
But outside USA?
I understand there is no Part 125 of Annex 6 Part II.
JAR has JAR-OPS Part 1, but no Part 2 nor Part 0.
What are the absolute minimum legal qualifications to fly a Learjet - two engine pressurized jet?
In USA, 2700 kg payload makes a line between Part 91 operations and Part 125 operations. What about Europe? Can a PPL with adequate training get type rated on 747 and fly it non-commercially, the same way as flying a Learjet?
Can a PPL be in command of a CPL? Especially concerning an owner pilot in command, whether of a Learjet or a 747?
Actually, what he does seems contrary to Part 125 as well.
Namely, Part 125 requires CPL qualifications from both captain AND copilot!
But outside USA?
I understand there is no Part 125 of Annex 6 Part II.
JAR has JAR-OPS Part 1, but no Part 2 nor Part 0.
What are the absolute minimum legal qualifications to fly a Learjet - two engine pressurized jet?
In USA, 2700 kg payload makes a line between Part 91 operations and Part 125 operations. What about Europe? Can a PPL with adequate training get type rated on 747 and fly it non-commercially, the same way as flying a Learjet?
Can a PPL be in command of a CPL? Especially concerning an owner pilot in command, whether of a Learjet or a 747?
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Dan Winterland was alluding to in his previous post, a little knowledge can indeed be a very dangerous thing.
If I was a betting man, I would put my money on the person who has no idea of what to do in a 744 cockpit, rather than somebody who think they do.
If I was a betting man, I would put my money on the person who has no idea of what to do in a 744 cockpit, rather than somebody who think they do.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very interesting stuff Floppy Link, thanks for that. I guess to me it's a new language, one I don't really speak, so better for me to stay in the back with the gin. I suppose a bigger threat in this brave new world is the fighter pilot coming up to see why it's all gone quiet.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Estonia
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do these airplanes do if the pilots don't do anything after the cleared route is programmed in? Does it fly any clearance limit and hold? If you are cleared to the destination airport will it just shoot an approach or hold at the IAF, or something else altogether?
Flew to Athens, then took to circling at a cruise altitude. When one engine quit due to fuel exhaustion, the plane did not fall off the sky immediately, but the door lock opened, so a PPL could get in.
How would your 747 or 767 act in stead of that 737?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 43
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that when the 747 is coulped to the FMC via VNAV the aircraft is protected against overspeeds both in the clean and "dirty" (with flaps) configurations. The aircraft will not fly slower than the FMC calculated safe speed. This means that using VNAV the speed is limited in the approach by the flap setting since the aircraft will not reduce the speed lower than the speed calculated for the current flap setting. Again correct me if i'm wrong but i think that the flaps need to be manually selected and therefore if no flaps have been selected then the aircraft will be travelling very quickly compared to a normal approach.
Ed
Ed
That's pretty much it. The protections are in all vertical modes except VS which has none. However, there are none on the flap lever. If you select flaps 20 knots above limiting speed, they will move and you will have an overspeed. As with the gear. When slowing for configuring, I don't remeber using the FMC speeds. I alwats remember using selected speeds as you had far more control.
The Boeings will start a descent if Top of Descent is reached and a lower MCP altitude is selected. The FBW Airbus models will not, you have to select a lower alt, then push (for managed) or pull (for selected) the alt knob to make the thing go down. It only took me about twenty flights and about nineteen screaming dives to get that right when I started flying the thing!
A 'Route Full' message on a 747 is unlikely, it has much more memory. It depends on the company SOPs as to whether the approach is loaded at the planning stage. My company did as a matter of rule, because it gave you a better idea of the fule situation in the cruise. Mind you, a destination approach loaded at Heathrow may not be the same as the one on arrival in Hong Kong 13 hours later!
The Boeings will start a descent if Top of Descent is reached and a lower MCP altitude is selected. The FBW Airbus models will not, you have to select a lower alt, then push (for managed) or pull (for selected) the alt knob to make the thing go down. It only took me about twenty flights and about nineteen screaming dives to get that right when I started flying the thing!
A 'Route Full' message on a 747 is unlikely, it has much more memory. It depends on the company SOPs as to whether the approach is loaded at the planning stage. My company did as a matter of rule, because it gave you a better idea of the fule situation in the cruise. Mind you, a destination approach loaded at Heathrow may not be the same as the one on arrival in Hong Kong 13 hours later!
FlyEFJ: Sorry, but you ARE wrong about the speed/flap relationships on B747-400 ( and B777) In Vnav or G/S capture mode the aircraft will fly the selected speed regardless of the flap setting. Therefore you could get the aircraft to fly clean at a speeds well below a safe value. Its a long time since I flew the 747-400, but certainly on the B777 you will only get protection from a low speed condition when the autothrottles activate as the speed approaches the stick shaker speed. This would only happen if the autothrottle was, at least, in the armed mode and would keep the aircraft flying for the hopeful PPL.
With reference to earlier comments about the article in Pilot magazine, I have to support Bob Grimstead's ( the co-author) observations 100%. It is absolutely true that -5 kts into the flare on a B747 ( or any big jet) can lead to a severely heavy landing or a tailstrike, conversely +10kts means a huge amount of extra energy to dissipate. The B747 has a massive wing and floats beautifully in ground effect. You cannot begin to get rid of all that energy until the aircraft is on the ground and spoilers and brakes can do their job.It WILL float for half the runway if you let it.
I was a training captain for many years in Big Airways in the days when it was possible to let friends and the public have a go at flying a B747 or B777 simulator. Private pilot or microsoft expert or not, even with a talk down, none succeeded in getting the aircraft anywhere near a survivable landing on a runway despite several attempts. A PPL might get the B747 into the semblance of a flare, but the landing would either be dangerously fast or slow, the flare too high or too late and almost certainly into the scenery rather than on the runway. The chances are about 1 in a 100 of getting it right. You would be sensationally lucky if you did. At best you could prevent an uncontrolled descent from altitude and you might enable a few people to survive the controlled crash.
With reference to earlier comments about the article in Pilot magazine, I have to support Bob Grimstead's ( the co-author) observations 100%. It is absolutely true that -5 kts into the flare on a B747 ( or any big jet) can lead to a severely heavy landing or a tailstrike, conversely +10kts means a huge amount of extra energy to dissipate. The B747 has a massive wing and floats beautifully in ground effect. You cannot begin to get rid of all that energy until the aircraft is on the ground and spoilers and brakes can do their job.It WILL float for half the runway if you let it.
I was a training captain for many years in Big Airways in the days when it was possible to let friends and the public have a go at flying a B747 or B777 simulator. Private pilot or microsoft expert or not, even with a talk down, none succeeded in getting the aircraft anywhere near a survivable landing on a runway despite several attempts. A PPL might get the B747 into the semblance of a flare, but the landing would either be dangerously fast or slow, the flare too high or too late and almost certainly into the scenery rather than on the runway. The chances are about 1 in a 100 of getting it right. You would be sensationally lucky if you did. At best you could prevent an uncontrolled descent from altitude and you might enable a few people to survive the controlled crash.
Yes 777, you're right about selected speed. The reason why I couldn't rmember flying managed speed during decceleration was because it doesn't do it. The Airbus does once the approach has been activated. After 1500 hours on the thing, I still forget to do it!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So (talking 747-400), if the whole route including the approach is programmed in early enough, and ATC clears the way, the computer will put you on the ground on a runway? But you might be too fast as the flaps are manually controlled? Is that correct? Does it brake itself?
Remember first trip on a 744 was coming back to LHR from SIN during the first gulf war and did that take a long route back, amazing how long those things can stay in the air. Managed to get invite onto the flight deck and was amazed how such a small room can control such a mammoth beast. The temptation to start clicking all those switches was so strong had to sit on my hands. Wouldn't know where to start. Captain came on after landing to say the whole approach was controlled by ATC, which I still don't fully understand, but sounded impressive. That was over 15 years ago.
Remember first trip on a 744 was coming back to LHR from SIN during the first gulf war and did that take a long route back, amazing how long those things can stay in the air. Managed to get invite onto the flight deck and was amazed how such a small room can control such a mammoth beast. The temptation to start clicking all those switches was so strong had to sit on my hands. Wouldn't know where to start. Captain came on after landing to say the whole approach was controlled by ATC, which I still don't fully understand, but sounded impressive. That was over 15 years ago.