Downwind Checks ?
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I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here ....
Agree with you there, hence the check on final for the Red's Blue's Green's check
I have no idea what a Red's Blue's Green's check is.
Once committed to a landing there is only one item that really matters to me and that is " Where am I landing and where is my gear "
I would not want to land on the runway with the gear up, and may not live to worry about it if I land on the water with the gear down.
For me the rest is routine, I can go around at cruise power if necessary, and if I need to move four levers at the same time I just think of it as flying a four engine airplane.....that makes me feel better anyhow....
Agree with you there, hence the check on final for the Red's Blue's Green's check
I have no idea what a Red's Blue's Green's check is.
Once committed to a landing there is only one item that really matters to me and that is " Where am I landing and where is my gear "
I would not want to land on the runway with the gear up, and may not live to worry about it if I land on the water with the gear down.
For me the rest is routine, I can go around at cruise power if necessary, and if I need to move four levers at the same time I just think of it as flying a four engine airplane.....that makes me feel better anyhow....
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Red = Mixture
Blue = Prop
Greens = Gear (3 'greens') or whatever applies.
"Once committed to a landing there is only one item that really matters to me and that is " Where am I landing and where is my gear " (Hopefully attached to the underside of the a/c)
Thats 2 things btw
Thats what the RBG check is for!
C250
Blue = Prop
Greens = Gear (3 'greens') or whatever applies.
"Once committed to a landing there is only one item that really matters to me and that is " Where am I landing and where is my gear " (Hopefully attached to the underside of the a/c)
Thats 2 things btw
Thats what the RBG check is for!
C250
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" Red = Mixture
Blue = Prop
Greens = Gear (3 'greens') or whatever applies "
AAhh...so all I need do if I learn that pre landing check is just use blue and green in the Turbo Goose.
And remember to check green down or green up, depending on where I am landing.
Blue = Prop
Greens = Gear (3 'greens') or whatever applies "
AAhh...so all I need do if I learn that pre landing check is just use blue and green in the Turbo Goose.
And remember to check green down or green up, depending on where I am landing.
...I feel I am being exctly the opposite as my thoughts on how to fly come from decades of experience and learning from experience, and not from the myopic world of ab-inito training,...
On our Twin Comanche (2 x Lyc IO-320), I leave the props at 2400 rpm for approach and landing. In real-world operations, this has never once been a problem -- if I need to go around I simply push both throttles fully forward and climb without waking the neighbours: there's ample power available. The times when it has caused problems have been in training situations doing touch and goes. For a take-off roll, even from a rolling start, 2400 rpm makes a real difference to the length of runway required if I forget to push the props fine :blush:.
So I wonder if the insistence on "prop fully fine" before it's really needed stems from the needs of the training environment.
Atkinson claims to have measured data which proves this. Apparently it is to do with higher RPMs resulting in lower internal cylinder pressure.
I can well imagine that lower RPMs at high power setting can increase the cylinder pressure to a dangerous level, but I can't believe that the wear vs pressure relationship is linear enough to mean that this would extend to lower powers in a way that dominates the effect of engine revolutions.
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" So I wonder if the insistence on "prop fully fine" before it's really needed stems from the needs of the training environment "
Where else can we give credit for this proceedure?
Somehow flight training gets these teaching methods set in concrete with the missguided beliefe that teaching people to operate these machines has to be done by only teaching a proceedure that ensures that no matter how slow their thinking process is they have it set up for a brain lock.
( There is a long sentence )
That teaching method does not allow for moving into more complex equipment were different power handling proceedures are required.
My problem is I'm from the generation that only acted after thinking...
..so for propellor pitch control we were taught ....prop pitch as required....
Saves having to relearn every time we fly something different.
Where else can we give credit for this proceedure?
Somehow flight training gets these teaching methods set in concrete with the missguided beliefe that teaching people to operate these machines has to be done by only teaching a proceedure that ensures that no matter how slow their thinking process is they have it set up for a brain lock.
( There is a long sentence )
That teaching method does not allow for moving into more complex equipment were different power handling proceedures are required.
My problem is I'm from the generation that only acted after thinking...
..so for propellor pitch control we were taught ....prop pitch as required....
Saves having to relearn every time we fly something different.
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Chuck
Sorry for my late response, there is no doubting your vast experience, and I acknowledge that, I think we may have our wires crossed slightly too, I was not talking about pushing the props fully fine downwind, but on finals, and in the visual circuit I guess this would happen about 1½ miles out, and on an instrument approach probably about 5 miles. I wholeheartedly agree that pushing the props fine downwind is not the thing to do.
Because this is the way I have been trained I'd rather not start changing the way I do things for obvious reasons like forgetting to do it, however, I have forgotten the RBG check on the odd occasion and it didn't effect the go around at DA/MDA, I'd rather not forget to do it if I encountered another windsheer scenario 50ft above the surface
Sorry for my late response, there is no doubting your vast experience, and I acknowledge that, I think we may have our wires crossed slightly too, I was not talking about pushing the props fully fine downwind, but on finals, and in the visual circuit I guess this would happen about 1½ miles out, and on an instrument approach probably about 5 miles. I wholeheartedly agree that pushing the props fine downwind is not the thing to do.
Because this is the way I have been trained I'd rather not start changing the way I do things for obvious reasons like forgetting to do it, however, I have forgotten the RBG check on the odd occasion and it didn't effect the go around at DA/MDA, I'd rather not forget to do it if I encountered another windsheer scenario 50ft above the surface
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To the original post, downwind checks is a bad habit. You should have the mind set of PRE LANDING CHECKS, you may go into an air traffic controlled airfield and never fly a downwind leg. Don't mean to be pedantic 
.
.
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Who's arguing? I'm not, we're discussing, however I suggest you are trying to incite one, I'm not doing it as suggested, my point still remains, I don't want to be doing the props fine thing in the flare, simple as that, I am merely stating that I thought Chuck may have thought I was talking about fining them downwind which wasn't the case, and there's a big difference between the hundreds of feet at the start of finals and the flare.
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" and there's a big difference between the hundreds of feet at the start of finals and the flare. "
Exactly, now you are getting to better understand the issue, once in the flare the importance of where your prop pitch control/s are set is so far down your worry scale that you can just leave them in cruise as you touch down and taxi in to the parking area......
.....Just don't forget to put them in full fine before you attempt to aviate the next time you get in the thing.
I can't believe I'm still in this discussion.
Exactly, now you are getting to better understand the issue, once in the flare the importance of where your prop pitch control/s are set is so far down your worry scale that you can just leave them in cruise as you touch down and taxi in to the parking area......
.....Just don't forget to put them in full fine before you attempt to aviate the next time you get in the thing.
I can't believe I'm still in this discussion.
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I haven't read the whole thread but there are engines which cannot take full throttle without being close to max rpm. The IO540-C4D5D is one; there is a kink in the MP v. rpm data and one needs to be >=2400 before max MP can be applied. So it makes sense to go to full rpm on short final, in case of a go-around.
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I'm kind of bored these last few weeks waiting for spring to arrive, so lets have another look at engine handling and all those exotic things that pilots so much love to discuss.
One can safely say that all turbocharged, supercharged piston engines can be damaged by over boosting.....
...but overboosting is not something that occurs until you open the throttle/'s past barometric pressure.
...now lets examine an approach.
Generally it is stabalized by two hundred feet above ground even when flying a very close in short circuit, so once stabalized and the runway is clearly in sight the landing should generally be assured.
However should you have to over shoot you do not have to act at the speed of light.
You can smoothly change the attitude nose up from the approach attitude to the climbing attitude and at the same time move the pitch control/'s and the throttle/'s to the required power and RPM, if the pitch control/,s are not in reach with one hand all you need do is move it into the desired RPM and then increase power with the throttle/'s..
...now back to the time element.
Close your eyes here at the computer screen and visualize these actions and count the seconds that the movements can smoothly be accomplished in.
Granted if the extra task of dealing with two power controls overwhelms a pilot then of course put the prop in fine pitch before you need it.
As I have previously stated if for some reason I feel I may need climb power due to say a wild ride turbulence wise of course I will use the needed RPM where and when required.
Just off hand I would estimate that would be about 3 to 5 % of the approaches.
One can safely say that all turbocharged, supercharged piston engines can be damaged by over boosting.....
...but overboosting is not something that occurs until you open the throttle/'s past barometric pressure.
...now lets examine an approach.
Generally it is stabalized by two hundred feet above ground even when flying a very close in short circuit, so once stabalized and the runway is clearly in sight the landing should generally be assured.
However should you have to over shoot you do not have to act at the speed of light.
You can smoothly change the attitude nose up from the approach attitude to the climbing attitude and at the same time move the pitch control/'s and the throttle/'s to the required power and RPM, if the pitch control/,s are not in reach with one hand all you need do is move it into the desired RPM and then increase power with the throttle/'s..
...now back to the time element.
Close your eyes here at the computer screen and visualize these actions and count the seconds that the movements can smoothly be accomplished in.
Granted if the extra task of dealing with two power controls overwhelms a pilot then of course put the prop in fine pitch before you need it.
As I have previously stated if for some reason I feel I may need climb power due to say a wild ride turbulence wise of course I will use the needed RPM where and when required.
Just off hand I would estimate that would be about 3 to 5 % of the approaches.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 26th Mar 2007 at 14:49.
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The recitation is not "Undercarriage Down" but "Undercarriage down AND LOCKED". Sometimes one tends to forget the nemonic sequence whilst waiting for the three greens and have to start again.
Comanche250 suggested lowering the gear first. I used to do this as it got the most important bit out of the way - you feel a little silly meeting the ground without wheels - and then progress to the other checks. Additionally, as the gear usually could be lowered at a speed higher than the flap extension limits, the drag was useful in getting the speed back to where you wanted it.
Comanche250 suggested lowering the gear first. I used to do this as it got the most important bit out of the way - you feel a little silly meeting the ground without wheels - and then progress to the other checks. Additionally, as the gear usually could be lowered at a speed higher than the flap extension limits, the drag was useful in getting the speed back to where you wanted it.
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Full fine below 15'' of MAP on final, use full power for the go around, not climb power, it is just like a take off, just a little higher to start with.
There are a lot of pilots who read this and may take that to mean you use full power on the go around all the time.
Would this apply to all piston engine airplanes and all go arounds?
A go around is far different than a take off as you start the take off from zero speed, whereas a go around is commensed from a safe flying speed.
I can think of a few airplanes I wouldn't use that method of going around power wise in.
There are a lot of pilots who read this and may take that to mean you use full power on the go around all the time.
Would this apply to all piston engine airplanes and all go arounds?
A go around is far different than a take off as you start the take off from zero speed, whereas a go around is commensed from a safe flying speed.
I can think of a few airplanes I wouldn't use that method of going around power wise in.
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Sorry to sound sanctimonious but it is worth reading the thread before commenting - Chuck has spelled out his views about when and how to set up the aircraft before the landing quite clearly - you may disagree, but in order to do so you need to read what has been said before commenting and so avoid everyone going round - in circles.
and one needs to be >=2400 before max MP can be applied. So it makes sense to go to full rpm on short final, in case of a go-around.