Best First Trainer ? C152 or C172 ?
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IO540
I wish I had known at the outset what I know now
I wish I had known at the outset what I know now
IO540
if you can fly something bigger
if you can fly something bigger
Having said that I personaly think it would be better to learn in the 150 than the 172. And I definatley would not bother witha PA38, I can't stand them.
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I flown the Robin DR 400, not bad I must say. Cracking view out of it. I am just not keen on the flimsy skin of the aircraft. Also I would not say it is ideal for a trainer. The hand break takes some getting used to as well.
The Grumman AA5-B is not bad either. After the PA32 I fly this more than Cessna or Piper. It is quiet a skitish aricraft though, yet I find it the eastiest aircraft I have flown to land. you just need to be careful of the flimsy castoring nose wheel. Again probably not the best trainer.
The Grumman AA5-B is not bad either. After the PA32 I fly this more than Cessna or Piper. It is quiet a skitish aricraft though, yet I find it the eastiest aircraft I have flown to land. you just need to be careful of the flimsy castoring nose wheel. Again probably not the best trainer.
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Makes not a jot of difference one or the other when looking at the club scene these days.
Find the cheapest aircraft you can and get your licence for as little capital outlay as possible. Once you've got your licence you can chop and change as much as you want and fly whatever you're prepared to pay for.
Many comments here can be likened to when newbies ask me what the 'xxx' simulator is like. If they haven't flown the real thing, it makes no difference whatsoever; they have no frame of reference in which to use the information, which is still only my opinion based on my preferences and my experience.
Find the cheapest aircraft you can and get your licence for as little capital outlay as possible. Once you've got your licence you can chop and change as much as you want and fly whatever you're prepared to pay for.
Many comments here can be likened to when newbies ask me what the 'xxx' simulator is like. If they haven't flown the real thing, it makes no difference whatsoever; they have no frame of reference in which to use the information, which is still only my opinion based on my preferences and my experience.
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I think it depends on what one really wants to do with their licence. If you're hoping to make a career out of flying then a C152 might be the most cost effective as they're normally a cheaper rate than a C172.
I've flown C152's, C172's and PA-38 Tomahawks. My favourite has to be the C172 for it's stability, but both the C152 and 172 are quite reasonable to fly. The Tomahawk is a different game all together. A nice plane, but not as forgiving as the Cessna's.
I've flown C152's, C172's and PA-38 Tomahawks. My favourite has to be the C172 for it's stability, but both the C152 and 172 are quite reasonable to fly. The Tomahawk is a different game all together. A nice plane, but not as forgiving as the Cessna's.
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cost,cost & cost
Above the reason why the C152 is such a good trainer, yes the PA38 is a better trainer and the Robin is far nicer to fly but the objective is to teach people to fly at the most economical cost the goal being the issue of PPL.
Reasons for not using the PA38 are that parts are starting to get a bit hard to get hold of and 13,000 hour spar life so a high life aircraft will have next to no resale value so don't expect to be flying anything except an old dog by now.
The Robin is by far the nicest aircraft to fly and a very good trainer but Robin are by far worst aircraft company at suplying parts that I have ever delt with and dispite being a long time DR400-180 owner I would never try to make money with the aircraft and so regretably it is a non starter as a trainer.
The C152 dispite being out of production is an aircraft that has unlimitted spar life and a good parts suply chain, being a "beefed up" C150 it has had all the bugs of the C150 sorted out and so maintenance costs are the lowest of any of the popular trainers so it is an aircraft that an owner can spend money on with confidence of a return on investment.
The C172 is a fine aircraft ( but not as nice to fly as the Robin) with all the advantages of the Cessna parts supply chain but as noted in other posts you are flying two empty seats around and I'm sure Ryanair would not do that as a matter of policy!!
Reasons for not using the PA38 are that parts are starting to get a bit hard to get hold of and 13,000 hour spar life so a high life aircraft will have next to no resale value so don't expect to be flying anything except an old dog by now.
The Robin is by far the nicest aircraft to fly and a very good trainer but Robin are by far worst aircraft company at suplying parts that I have ever delt with and dispite being a long time DR400-180 owner I would never try to make money with the aircraft and so regretably it is a non starter as a trainer.
The C152 dispite being out of production is an aircraft that has unlimitted spar life and a good parts suply chain, being a "beefed up" C150 it has had all the bugs of the C150 sorted out and so maintenance costs are the lowest of any of the popular trainers so it is an aircraft that an owner can spend money on with confidence of a return on investment.
The C172 is a fine aircraft ( but not as nice to fly as the Robin) with all the advantages of the Cessna parts supply chain but as noted in other posts you are flying two empty seats around and I'm sure Ryanair would not do that as a matter of policy!!
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Before I give my opinion I'll state that I am no expert. I have never, ever flown a Cessna (in fact, the only A/C I have ever flown is the Grob Tutor and the PA38), so I cannot comment on any Cessnas.
I'm currently doing my training in a Tommy, nothing wrong with it, the club I'm with has a particularly nice example, I like it. Great visibility, seems to fly quite nicely. Cheap to learn in too.
At the end of the day it's up to you, you can save money initially and learn on a cheaper two-seater or, if you can afford a little more, learn on a four-seater type you'd be likely to fly after your training.
Cheers
Smithy
I'm currently doing my training in a Tommy, nothing wrong with it, the club I'm with has a particularly nice example, I like it. Great visibility, seems to fly quite nicely. Cheap to learn in too.
At the end of the day it's up to you, you can save money initially and learn on a cheaper two-seater or, if you can afford a little more, learn on a four-seater type you'd be likely to fly after your training.
Cheers
Smithy
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all planes are beautiful
Having flown all aircraft listed bar a B777 do what virtually everyone does fly a C150 (or C152) to start then a 172 then a 182 then a PA32-300 then get a job flying pro aircraft and, like most do, never fly a 150 again ,,,, a few (safe) aeros in the C150A later and most remeber the fun that they are .. theres no C172 Aerobatic planes that I know of!! The 150s are alas dying off now and anyone who wont miss them I have nothing but contemp for ... 
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Strong words, Phil.
The 150 became the aircraft it is, probably the most common trainer in the western world, not by being the best but by being the cheapest. You don't have to look far to find better performance, nicer handling or prettier aircraft in the same class.
Just off the top of my head, the Beagle Pup, Rollason Condor, Slingsby T-67, Jodel D150, Robin DR400-108. I'd choose any of them before flying the Cessna!
Then you may want to discuss the role of 'trainer'. A good trainer should really be an awful aeroplane (or be able to exhibit/exagerate various aerodynamic characteristics) so the student may develop the skill to be able to handle whatever aircraft he may later fly. The 150 is quite a pleasantly handling aircraft requiring less in the way of skill than other trainers of the era, typically the Auster.
The 150 became the aircraft it is, probably the most common trainer in the western world, not by being the best but by being the cheapest. You don't have to look far to find better performance, nicer handling or prettier aircraft in the same class.
Just off the top of my head, the Beagle Pup, Rollason Condor, Slingsby T-67, Jodel D150, Robin DR400-108. I'd choose any of them before flying the Cessna!
Then you may want to discuss the role of 'trainer'. A good trainer should really be an awful aeroplane (or be able to exhibit/exagerate various aerodynamic characteristics) so the student may develop the skill to be able to handle whatever aircraft he may later fly. The 150 is quite a pleasantly handling aircraft requiring less in the way of skill than other trainers of the era, typically the Auster.
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If you have flown a slingsby, thank God you survived, many haven't ...we were talking about trainers and where I come from this is fighting talk, fortunately I moved but the 400 a similar price to the 150 ? We will have to agree to disagree but flew with a "face" on Thursday and went for a jolly later .... in a 150! he was impressed with a stall turn and all perfectly legal ... 150s are great!!
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The 150s are alas dying off now and anyone who wont miss them I have nothing but contemp for ...
but the 400 a similar price to the 150 ?
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The wild wing drops in the stall were fun and probably good value relative to an expensive fairground ride but in reality nobody is going to be anywhere near stalling (in normal operations) unless they have severely messed up, and that will happen only just before landing, and then one is too low to do anything about it anyway.
I have to disagree with that. The pilot who is fully familiar with his aeroplane in the approach to the stall and the break-away (preferably through becoming competant at flying aeros, but adequate spin training can be very valuable here as well) will, as opposed to a pilot who flies 'by the numbers', probably not stall because he is 'Angle of Attack' aware. But if he gets there, he'll most likely instinctively unload the wings and recover PDQ whereas your 'by the numbers I don't need stall/spin practice and what the heck's an AoA?' pilot will drill a smoking hole in the ground.
SSD
I have to disagree with that. The pilot who is fully familiar with his aeroplane in the approach to the stall and the break-away (preferably through becoming competant at flying aeros, but adequate spin training can be very valuable here as well) will, as opposed to a pilot who flies 'by the numbers', probably not stall because he is 'Angle of Attack' aware. But if he gets there, he'll most likely instinctively unload the wings and recover PDQ whereas your 'by the numbers I don't need stall/spin practice and what the heck's an AoA?' pilot will drill a smoking hole in the ground.
SSD
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Phil,
I didn't say the Robin was a similar price, only that the lower powered models are the same class, ie. training/club use.
But the Slingby is a lovely aircraft with very good manners. I also tried to abuse it to see if it would bite but it couldn't be made to do anything which I didn't expect or recover from. Due to airspace restraints I couldn't really get high enough to accelerate some spins so was unable to test the warning in the handbook that 'if proper spin recovery technique is not used then an accelerated spin may develop which may take up to 5 turns to recover'.
But I did get it to flick out of a few manouvres, drop wings occasionally and do a couple of normal spins. Nothing in any way unusual.
I didn't say the Robin was a similar price, only that the lower powered models are the same class, ie. training/club use.
But the Slingby is a lovely aircraft with very good manners. I also tried to abuse it to see if it would bite but it couldn't be made to do anything which I didn't expect or recover from. Due to airspace restraints I couldn't really get high enough to accelerate some spins so was unable to test the warning in the handbook that 'if proper spin recovery technique is not used then an accelerated spin may develop which may take up to 5 turns to recover'.
But I did get it to flick out of a few manouvres, drop wings occasionally and do a couple of normal spins. Nothing in any way unusual.
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Guilty as charged
Sternone, look at what you have started!
All you asked was a simple question about which little cessa to learn on!
One thing is for sure, as pilots we get awfully emotionally attached to our steeds (I know that I am) and are prepared to argue its virtues (ad nauseam) with anybody who doubts our judgement (whether they are interested or not) - its a little like defending the honour of a lady.
This one will run and run...
SB
All you asked was a simple question about which little cessa to learn on!
One thing is for sure, as pilots we get awfully emotionally attached to our steeds (I know that I am) and are prepared to argue its virtues (ad nauseam) with anybody who doubts our judgement (whether they are interested or not) - its a little like defending the honour of a lady.
This one will run and run...
SB
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No It Won't !!! well only a little
Back to the original question ..... The 150 is better and cheaper to learn on !!!
There are many variants French ones (God help us) which have better corrosion proofing and the larger engines ones (French again) for the aerobatic ones but the simple 150 in my opinion is a great trainer with the all important "A" in it and the smaller 100 hp engine (very slight differences to the standard) is a great reliable trainer.
There are many variants French ones (God help us) which have better corrosion proofing and the larger engines ones (French again) for the aerobatic ones but the simple 150 in my opinion is a great trainer with the all important "A" in it and the smaller 100 hp engine (very slight differences to the standard) is a great reliable trainer.
