single engine complex "differences training"

[hollywood285]

Just been looking on a Flying schools website and its saying you need 5 hours training to complete!! What do you do in them 5 hours?? seems abit excessive, your not starting from scratch, its only really going to be setting the prop pitch (30 mins) and making sure you put and check wheels are down and the emergency procedure (30mins) what else is there to do?

The question I wanted to ask was, I hold a MEP rating on my license, do I have to do the complex single training???

[Keygrip]

....and the answer would, very likely, be "No".

It's not "complex single" training - it's VP props and Retractable Undercarriage training(in this case). If you already use them then there's nothing new to learn (other than prop settings and how to get the gear down manually).

You should be able to cover all you need with a decent briefing in a classroom. There's no requirement for flight training on any of the "differences" (though probably a bluddy good idea).

If your MEP model(s) include bendy props and disappearing wheels you should be good to go in the single.

A timely reminder, maybe (whilst on the subject), but every model of MEP requires its own differences training.

[Flyin'Dutch']

What do you do in them 5 hours??

Take your money!



People, schools and aeroplanes do differ but I am not sure why they think that people require five hours to convert from a 172/cherokee to an arrow type machine.

Nominally takes 7 to get a twin rating, and that requires a bit more hard work than retracting the gear and wobbling the prop.

As Keygrip says you have done the differences training by doing your MEP if it was a 'conventional' twin with retractable gear and VP prop. If they want you to do some dual in their single to familiarise yourself with it and they with you, fair enough. Not five hours though.

[FlyingForFun]

The question I wanted to ask was, I hold a MEP rating on my license, do I have to do the complex single training???

....and the answer would, very likely, be "No".

Keygrip, I'm not sure that's correct.

Differences training is class-specific. Training you've had on an MEP does not carry over to an SEP nor vice versa.

So Hollywood would require differences training. There is no minimum time required for this, but I believe it must involve a flight. (If there's any debate about this I'll try to dig out the relevant parts of JAR FCL 1 to confirm it.) Incidentally, what LASORS says on the subject is not correct - it attempts to summarise JAR FCL 1, but in doing so makes a few errors.

I would say 5 hours is not unreasonable for a low-hours PPL who hasn't flown anything more complex then a C152 before. (It took me about 5 hours to do the training when I fitted that description.) But if you have an MEP rating and are current, then it really shouldn't take any more than a couple of hours at most, and you would be best to find a school which is flexible enough to not insist on 5 hours.

FFF
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[Flyin'Dutch']

FFF,

I would be interested to see that ANO bit.

Lasors 2007 is quite clear:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20F.pdf

SEP differences training does not confer rights on MEP differences wrt VP props.

No stipulation on minimum hours required either nor explicitly states that one has to fly to get the sign off (although not flying to get or give the sign off would be stupid)

Hollywood does not require differences training as I understand it.

[hollywood285]

Thanks for the replys, I think the best thing to do is go to a school and say "i want to fly your whatever, I have this, this and this, is it just a check ride I need?" They will either say yay or nay, and just to confuss it even more I did my MEP in a turbo, is that going to carry over to Turbo singles?

A timely reminder, maybe (whilst on the subject), but every model of MEP requires its own differences training.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Originally Posted by hollywood285

Thanks for the replys, I think the best thing to do is go to a school and say "i want to fly your whatever, I have this, this and this, is it just a check ride I need?" They will either say yay or nay, and just to confuss it even more I did my MEP in a turbo, is that going to carry over to Turbo singles?

The way I read it is that MEP -> SEP is carry over of privileges not the other way around.

Have to say that explicitly stating that SEP experience on VP, retractable gear, turbo etc all seems to be a bit OTT. Only thing that I can see it making a difference is on the tailwheel stuff as I think there are no twins with counterrotating props and a tailwheel.

[FlyingForFun]

FD,
No, that is not true. Hollywood must get differences training for each of the variants he plans to fly on an SEP. There is NO carry-over from MEP to SEP.
The legislation is as follows:
Start off with the ANO, Article 29 (which is in Section 1 Part 4 Page 9, or scroll to page 57 of the PDF).

29 (1) This article applies to:
(a) JAR-FCL licences;
(b) United Kingdom aeroplane licences for which there are JAR-FCL equivalents;
(c) United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licences;
(d) United Kingdom Flight Engineer's Licences; and
(e) United Kingdom helicopter licences for which there are JAR-FCL equivalents.
(2) The holder of a pilot's licence to which this article applies shall not be entitled to exercise the privileges of an aircraft rating contained in the licence on a flight unless -
(b) the holder has undertaken differences training in accordance with paragraph 1.235 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 1 in the case of an aeroplane

The list of variants which require differences training was actually removed from JAR-FCL 1 earlier this year (to permit it to be updated without having to re-release the entire JAR-FCL 1), and can now be found here on the JAA website. The first table in this document lists the requirements for single-pilot piston-engine aeroplanes. The SEP and MEP endorsments are listed completely separately, with no indication that any carry-over from one to the other is allowed. What's more, there is no specific "retractable", "variable pitch", "turbo-charged", etc, endorsement for an MEP, because differences training is required for every different type in any case. So it would not be possible to carry your MEP retractable endorsement over to SEP, since there is no such thing as an MEP retractable endorsement.
The table not only lists the variants, but also shows (by means of a "(D)" in column 3) that "differences training" is required for each of them.
Paragraph 1.235 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 1 (page 92 of the PDF), although it no longer contains the list of variants, does define "differences training" in (c)(1):

(1) Differences training requires additional knowledge and training on an appropriate training device or the aeroplane.
The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent document and signed by a CRI/TRI/SFI(A) or FI(A) as appropriate.

Note that it is very explicit that differences training must include some flying or some time on an appropriate training device.
So, having reviewed all the relevant documents, my answer to Hollywood is exactly the same as it was earlier this evening. He needs differences training (including on turbos if he wants to fly a turbo-SEP). He must fly the aircraft with an instructor (or get training on an appropriate training device) as part of this differences training, and then get his instructor to sign his logbook. However, there is no minimum requirement for this differences training, and it might consist of a short checkout-style flight.
FFF
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[englishal]

This is precisely why I have an FAA ME rating, with high performance endorsement. That means I can bypass all this rubbish and fly whatever I want on the G reg

[B2N2]

A lot of things that we don't know here and that I would like to know;
Hollywood's got a PPL, but how many hours?
How many in the last year/6 months/30 days?
How many on a complex?
How many on the type that you are looking to rent?

Keep in mind that a lot of places only have one " complex single" and they are not about to give it away to somebody who they don't know.
It's not only matter if you are legal to do so..it's also common sense.

There's lotsa stuff you can do in those 5 hrs if you don't need all of them to get familiar with the airplane;
some advanced maneuvers, instrument work, cross wind landings anything that you can come up with.

[Flyin'Dutch']

FFF,

I can see why you think you can not carry over differences training from MEP to SEP but that is not what it says in the LASORS stuff nor the ANO.

The ANO paragraph you refer to just states 'differences training' the JAA page you refer to does suggest that there is no movement between differences training between SEP and MEP and as this is explicitly stated in LASORS I concede that they don't allow that. The other way round is not explicitly stated and therefore one can assume that they are fine about that.

Have to say that it is guilding the lilly to expect someone to redo differences training on a SEP if they have already got the sign off on a MEP, would you not agree.

B2N2, agree that you can do a lot of useful things in 5 hours but none of that should be required to make someone of average ability competent on the average 'complex' SEP.

Take the common 'complex' Arrow.

At best there is a 20kt difference in cruise speed. The handling is very similar to that of a Warrior/Archer. The theory of the VP prop and the gear retract system is pretty straight forward. After an hour of doing the gear and the prop I suspect that most people will have got the idea on what to do when. Finally make folks aware that Arrows are pretty crap at load hauling so that they do a W&B before going anywhere and that is it, n'est ce pas?

What else is there to say about it all?

[Whopity]

Article 155 says:

'JAR-FCL 1' means the Joint Aviation Requirement of the JAA bearing that title including Amendment 3 adopted by the JAA on 1st July 2003

Therefore, this has no standing in the UK:

The list of variants which require differences training was actually removed from JAR-FCL 1 earlier this year (to permit it to be updated without having to re-release the entire JAR-FCL 1), and can now be found here on the JAA website.

So the only bit that applies is:

(c) Variants. If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences training, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant will be required except for types or variants within the SEP class rating.
(1) Differences training requires additional knowledge and training on an appropriate training device or the aeroplane.
The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent document and signed by a CRI/TRI/SFI(A) or FI(A) as appropriate.
(2) Familiarisation training requires the acquisition of additional knowledge

If you have a differences training certificate in your log for one of the stated differences then its valid on a SEP indefinately. For a ME you have to repeat it every two years.

Its there for safety so apply a bit of common sense rather than trying to make things more complicated than they are.

[Julian]

It does seem daft that if you have an ME you cant carry over over to an ME. On my FAA licence when I did my ME i also got my Complex and High Performance endorsements signed off in my logbook, they carry back to the SE.

If JAA Land wants you to undertake differences training for someone with an ME rating then it should just be a case of undertaking the 1 hour check flight usually required by the club (hence cover the 'proficieny check' mentioned by whopity) and proving you can apply what you have learnt previously to the SE - 5 hours for someone who ALREADY holds an ME (and assuming not a complete muppet!), is just overkill.

J.

[High Wing Drifter]

I found this in LASORS 2006

Differences & Familiarisation Training on
SEP Aeroplanes for Holders of a MEP Class
Rating or Single-Pilot Type Rating (Piston
Types only)

Many pilots with a MEP class or type rating may only
have had experience on SEP aeroplanes with Fixed
pitch propellers. Where a Constant Speed Unit (CSU)
is fitted to a ‘single’, some of the MEP training will be of
value, but comparison should be made of the effect of
the propeller, on performance and handling between
types and variants within the SEP class.
The handling of a non-feathering VP propeller, on a
SEP aeroplane, during an emergency, may also be
quite different from the technique used in a single pilot
ME aeroplane. For example, not all VP propellers in
SEP aeroplanes have counterweights in the hub, so the
failsafe propeller pitch may be either fine or course, and
the effect on glide performance, may vary considerably
from type to type.
Where Differences Training on a particular feature has
been completed within the MEP class, these
differences may be covered, for SEP aeroplanes, by
Familiarisation. It is recommended, however, that some
flying training be carried out on the SE type, to
demonstrate these differences.

[Cobalt]

Just to inject a real-life example on how one of the larger flight school chains staring with a "C" and ending with "air" actually handled my transition to a Turbo Saratoga (PA32R-301T, 300HP 6-seater).

My experience: At that time, I had >100 hours on VP retractables (mostly Mooney M20J and PA28 Arrow), but not very recent due to lack of availability in the UK, as well as 10+ hours on a "Cherokee Six" a few years prior, essentially a fixed-gear, normally aspirated Saratoga. TT was maybe 200 or so, but recent flying experience was quite low.

History with the school: I had just started flying in the UK after moving from Germany, so I had converted my German ICAO licence into a JAR licence with that school, which involved not more than a practice flight and a skill test with their CFI, so they knew me, but I did not have a long "track record" with them.

"Differences" training sign-off: VP and retractable "grandfathered" from pre-JAR times, but no turbocharger yet.

The "paper" conditions for flying the Saratoga were ridiculous - 10 or 15 hours on type for solo, IIRC. After going over my logbook with the CFI, we just went flying on a typical familiarisation / checkout profile which I would consider good practice for any new type (discussion of the "less usual" systems, extensive briefing in the aeroplane, take-off into the local area, speed and configuration changes, steep turns, stalls, PFL, emergency gear extension) and then into the circuit for a few touch-and-goes. All went fine except for me being too hesitant in applying full power (fear of overboosting), so we agreed a second sortie, this time only in the circuit, when we also dealt with the short-field take-off peculiarities of that particular aeroplane (gear auro-extension override...). Total time maybe 1.5 hours or so.

After the debriefing, the CFI signed me off for flying that aircraft and signed off all JAR differences (VP, retractable, turbocharger) in one go - "Grandfathering or not, this will avoid any discussion later". He was quite happy to accept prior experience on similar types.

In a nutshell:

• Any suitable prior experience did count towards (school, not JAR) hours requirements - can't imagine that being different anywhere else
• The checkride and training was exactly what was needed and tailored to my needs - would not have done anything less. Someone with turbo experience would have done it in an even shorter time, no doubt.
• Wether JAR requires you to do so or not, just have all differences signed off anyway after the check flight.

So I would just go with my logbook (adding up relevant hours on type in advance) and get it done.

The requirement for 6-monthly (or whatever) checkrides, circuit checks if not flown for a month or so are a different matter

Cobalt

[javelin]

So, if Hollywood practises an engine failure, surely he is now flying a single engine complex aeroplane - assuming he doesn't crash, I would have thought that would be suitable training

[FlyingForFun]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

After all, you will surely at least want a checkout. And once the checkout is done, all that needs to be added to make it into "differences training" is a signature in a logbook.

It is not possible to use your MEP differences training towards SEP. That is quite clear when you read the relevant JAA documents. MEP and SEP differences training are different - there is no variable pitch, retractable, turbo, etc, training for an MEP (because differences training is required for every type), so therefore it is impossible (however logical it might sounds) to carry over training for something which doesn't exist in MEP-world to SEP-world.

Whopity points out that the version of JAR which I've quoted is not the one which is referenced by the ANO. That is true, but the version 3, which is referenced by the ANO, contains exactly the same list actually in the body of the document. Unfortunately, I don't know of anywhere to get a copy of this from right now that I can quote from.

HWD quoted something from LASORS which sounds very sensible, but is not correct - it directly contradicts the JARs. There are just a few areas where the CAA's "definitive guide" is not, unfortunately, difinitive.

But, as I said (and as Cobalt says too in his summary), who cares? Just do your checkout and get the instructor to sign your logbook, and it's done. No one is trying to rip anyone off, or force anyone to do 5 hours of unnecessary training. (Well, certain schools might, but I'm definitely not.) I'm just trying to make sure you've got all the required sigantures to be legal, and not just the knowledge to be safe.

FFF
--------------

[mad_jock]

I think the fuss is FFF that alot of differences training done on VP, retractable, turbo's and pressurisation done by FI's since lasors started stating its point of view will actually be defunct.

Alot of instructors myself included have done and signed off differences training on students while being not legally being qualified to be PIC on the various differences on SEP's if our MEP experence is not counted. I suspect that the majority of Pressurisation signoff's are done by Instructors who have type ratings on Pref A machines.

I will be willing to bet if you asked to see your Instructors log book they won't have the required entries in thier log books yet they will sign yours.

[englishal]

so therefore it is impossible (however logical it might sounds) to carry over training for something which doesn't exist in MEP-world to SEP-world.

Umm....forgive me if I am being stupid. But if you fly a turbo charged seneca II which has wobbly props and gear, then it would be very straight forward to move to a turbo arrow for example?

Or is it the "paperwork exercise" which is impossible? That is a whole different matter.

[READY MESSAGE]

Differences Training used to be a minimum of 5 hours with a FI/CRI. The requirements were changed in LASORS in the 2005 edition (I think) to 'training as required'. Many flying schools still advertise the 5 hours because most haven't realised the change. Think it's the reason that the SE CPL course has a minimum of 5 hours training in the complex aircraft.